UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

[marynnu]

Just in case anyone is interested, this is the documentary referred to by LL. Someone else on here came up with the date, many apologies to them as I can't find their post!
It contains quite a bit relating to a 30-weeker, and some of the procedures we've heard about during the trial.

An Hour To Save Your Life: Surviving Birth (BBC2, 9pm, 2016)

Following patients and staff at the Leicester Royal Infirmary, this stand-alone episode of An Hour To Save Your Life explores the critical interventions made in…

vimeo.com

 

[katydid23]

I also said “on brief consideration” before we had any leads on the content itself. What I found frightening was the seeming incoherency of it. At first glance, now we know a bit more its possible to make sense of. The sense is that it’s possible that it wasn’t to be made sense of in the first place. Meaningless jibber jabber done purely for some benefit perceived by the writer.

It's not meaningless jibber jabber though. " I killed them on purpose..." written down when you are suspected in the deaths of babies---how would that be meaningless jibber jabber?

"meaningless jibber jabber' is writing things like ' my dog is cooking bacon in the waffle iron.' Not " I AM EVIL I DID THIS'

 

[ColourPurple]

Just in case anyone is interested, this is the documentary referred to by LL. Someone else on here came up with the date, many apologies to them as I can't find their post!
It contains quite a bit relating to a 30-weeker, and some of the procedures we've heard about during the trial.

An Hour To Save Your Life: Surviving Birth (BBC2, 9pm, 2016)

Following patients and staff at the Leicester Royal Infirmary, this stand-alone episode of An Hour To Save Your Life explores the critical interventions made in…

vimeo.com

Lots of interesting stuff in it IMO. The timing of it is interesting too isn't it This epsiode aired on 9th June 2015, which is when LL referred to watching it, ( a day after baby A died) but as the epsiodes have "coming up next week" clips at the end of each epsiode, clips of this episode would have been played after the previous episode on 2nd June (which was not about an NNU) and trailer clips on the BBC website are dated 2nd June too.

 

[katydid23]

You haven't missed much, lol!!!

I think they're still aiming for the trial to conclude in May some time.They're just going through summaries of the police interviews ,then it's time to hear the defence in full.

I wonder how extensive Meyers is going to go in terms of each child?

Realistically and legally, he kind of has to try hard to refute EVERY single charge. If the prosecution can prove even one or two of them, then the others seem much more likely to be true as well.

If he tries to put forward a defense on cases A through Q----that will be lengthy. The prosecution is allowed to cross examine and rebut every thing the defense sets forth.

 

[ColourPurple]

Because of some of the words in each of the notes I'd imagine..not necessarily the entire note would be relevant

Example I am evil ...I killed them on purpose..help ...etc

It's not meaningless jibber jabber though. " I killed them on purpose..." written down when you are suspected in the deaths of babies---how would that be meaningless jibber jabber?

"meaningless jibber jabber' is writing things like ' my dog is cooking bacon in the waffle iron.' Not " I AM EVIL I DID THIS'

And the birthday message to a baby who'd died. To write it all off as meaningless jibberjabber would be madness imo. It would also be helpful for the jury to know who or what Whiskey,Tigger, Smudge etc are. Who Tiny Boy is- is it a pet name or is she referring to an actually tiny boy? It would also be helpful to know what the relationship was with Doc Choc. Was it a full blown love affair, or was it a one sided obsession after he'd shown her attention/friendship/kindness? She writes "I loved you, I think you knew that" which implies, if it was a relationship, it wasn't at a stage where she'd said "I love you" to him. If that part is all about him of course.

 

[katydid23]

I agree, she definitely doesn't lack capacity or we wouldn't now be having a trial. I also agree with what you say about how other people saw her - they clearly didn't think she was mentally <modsnip> or in anyway dangerous or anything. This begs the question as to whether any MH or personality issues she may have are a result of the stresses introduced by the whole investigation, grievance and being taken off front line nursing duties or were there before hand?

Everything about this is just so messed up and strange, fi you ask me. It's on a different scale to anything I've ever heard of before.

Just because none of her co-workers thought she was dangerous or strange, doesn't mean she wasn't. [If guilty]

There have been plenty of 'killer nurses' that got away with it for quite awhile, mainly because they seemed nice and normal.

 

[ColourPurple]

I agree, she definitely doesn't lack capacity or we wouldn't now be having a trial. I also agree with what you say about how other people saw her - they clearly didn't think she was mentally <modsnip> or in anyway dangerous or anything. This begs the question as to whether any MH or personality issues she may have are a result of the stresses introduced by the whole investigation, grievance and being taken off front line nursing duties or were there before hand?

Just because none of her co-workers thought she was dangerous or strange, doesn't mean she wasn't. [If guilty]

There have been plenty of 'killer nurses' that got away with it for quite awhile, mainly because they seemed nice and normal.

And though it wasn't until the triplets, Dr Tea, the anonymous female doctor DID actually think LL was a danger. The Times and Mail quote her as saying "mortal danger" though they don't give the full quote. Other reports just say danger, eg.

“I was extremely worried. I couldn’t understand what had gone on in the last two days. In my mind what had gone on was not normal. “At that point in time I just wanted (the surviving triplet) to be in a safe place.”

Mr Myers asked: “Because of the danger posed by nurse Letby?”

“Yes,” she said.

Doctor ‘shocked’ as Lucy Letby asked if baby was ‘leaving here alive’

A DOCTOR was “shocked” when Lucy Letby asked whether a baby was “leaving here alive”, the nurse’s murder trial heard.

www.herefordtimes.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638601990245588996

 

[marynnu]

I agree, she definitely doesn't lack capacity or we wouldn't now be having a trial. I also agree with what you say about how other people saw her - they clearly didn't think she was mentally <modsnip> or in anyway dangerous or anything. This begs the question as to whether any MH or personality issues she may have are a result of the stresses introduced by the whole investigation, grievance and being taken off front line nursing duties or were there before hand?

Everything about this is just so messed up and strange, fi you ask me. It's on a different scale to anything I've ever heard of before.

I'm going to assume that by 'mentally <modsnip>' you mean abnormal, rather than having a learning disability. I'm not sure this is 100% correct. One colleague questioned her wish to go back into room 1 after Baby A's death, calling it odd I believe. There is all the stuff surrounding over-involvement with the death of Baby C. Not necessarily implying they think she is dangerous, but certainly at least some staff had picked up on inappropriate behaviour, or at least things they didn't understand.

 

[esther43]

And the birthday message to a baby who'd died. To write it all off as meaningless jibberjabber would be madness imo. It would also be helpful for the jury to know who or what Whiskey,Tigger, Smudge etc are. Who Tiny Boy is- is it a pet name or is she referring to an actually tiny boy? It would also be helpful to know what the relationship was with Doc Choc. Was it a full blown love affair, or was it a one sided obsession after he'd shown her attention/friendship/kindness? She writes "I loved you, I think you knew that" which implies, if it was a relationship, it wasn't at a stage where she'd said "I love you" to him. If that part is all about him of course.

It does seem from the notes that her relationship with Dr choc was in decline ahead of her first arrest.

 

[Kemug]

Besides, the author of a song didn't leave dead bodies in his wake.
Or did he???

Yes, Phil Spector did.

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder how extensive Meyers is going to go in terms of each child?

Realistically and legally, he kind of has to try hard to refute EVERY single charge. If the prosecution can prove even one or two of them, then the others seem much more likely to be true as well.

If he tries to put forward a defense on cases A through Q----that will be lengthy. The prosecution is allowed to cross examine and rebut every thing the defense sets forth.

I suspect they will move straight onto closing arguments when the prosecution rests. JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I'm going to assume that by 'mentally <modsnip>' you mean abnormal, rather than having a learning disability. I'm not sure this is 100% correct. One colleague questioned her wish to go back into room 1 after Baby A's death, calling it odd I believe. There is all the stuff surrounding over-involvement with the death of Baby C. Not necessarily implying they think she is dangerous, but certainly at least some staff had picked up on inappropriate behaviour, or at least things they didn't understand.

Regarding LL’s mental health and / or cognitive function, has she been subjected to evaluations and reports for the courts?

It has crossed my mind more than once that LL may have been using / misusing / addicted to some form of substance. Has there been any discussion of that possibility?

Also re her ‘personality’ JMO MOO but it is my vast observation and backed with research into addicts and personality disorders that certain people cannot process ‘cause and effect‘ or ‘action and consequence’ like an average adult and cannot comprehend or take responsibility for their role in events.

Has there been any analysis of her cognitive abilities and processing?

 

[marynnu]

Regarding LL’s mental health and / or cognitive function, has she been subjected to evaluations and reports for the courts?

It has crossed my mind more than once that LL may have been using / misusing / addicted to some form of substance. Has there been any discussion of that possibility?

Also re her ‘personality’ JMO MOO but it is my vast observation and backed with research into addicts and personality disorders that certain people cannot process ‘cause and effect‘ or ‘action and consequence’ like an average adult and cannot comprehend or take responsibility for their role in events.

Has there been any analysis of her cognitive abilities and processing?

She'll have been deemed to have capacity, beyond that I haven't a clue. There's been nothing to suggest she took any kind of drugs, other than alcohol!

 

[DinerMite]

Regarding LL’s mental health and / or cognitive function, has she been subjected to evaluations and reports for the courts?

It has crossed my mind more than once that LL may have been using / misusing / addicted to some form of substance. Has there been any discussion of that possibility?

Also re her ‘personality’ JMO MOO but it is my vast observation and backed with research into addicts and personality disorders that certain people cannot process ‘cause and effect‘ or ‘action and consequence’ like an average adult and cannot comprehend or take responsibility for their role in events.

Has there been any analysis of her cognitive abilities and processing?

As she is pleading not-guilty I can't imagine any psych evaluations have been done yet, beyond the usual, unless instructed to by the judge during trial which AFAIK they haven't. I imagine, if guilty, then a test would be ordered.

Could be wrong though, limited court knowledge

 

[Sweeper2000]

I agree, she definitely doesn't lack capacity or we wouldn't now be having a trial. I also agree with what you say about how other people saw her - they clearly didn't think she was mentally <modsnip> or in anyway dangerous or anything. This begs the question as to whether any MH or personality issues she may have are a result of the stresses introduced by the whole investigation, grievance and being taken off front line nursing duties or were there before hand?

Everything about this is just so messed up and strange, fi you ask me. It's on a different scale to anything I've ever heard of before.

Slightly worrying imo. I might take a stab in the dark and say the prosecution offered those notes as evidence of a disturbance of mind. Bolstering those occasions of odd behaviour. It really isn’t much to go on imo. Think that angle is a suggestion of problems preceding the events. Very scant evidence on that front. I do worry how the jury will see that evidence though.

it reads to me that the process after suspension from clinical duties has exacerbated things for her. She seemed happy enough before then after we get the notes of which suicide is a prominent feature.

it really is messed up.

 

[esther43]

She'll have been deemed to have capacity, beyond that I haven't a clue. There's been nothing to suggest she took any kind of drugs, other than alcohol!

I suppose that the times LL was animated and inappropriate could be linked to drug use potentially. The noteworthy thing is the changes in perception of LL across time, when did 'nice lucy' become 'erratic, inappropriate, overbearing Lucy?'
I think it's important for the jury to know was she consistently both of these things, or was there a marked behaviour change across relating only to this period in time

 

[Jazmania]

I suspect they will move straight onto closing arguments when the prosecution rests. JMO

You don't think the defence will offer any evidence or call any witnesses? That would be insane! I'm sure they will call some experts. They could call the original pathologists who did the autopsies, or perhaps experts on conditions that the defence argues the baby's had like NEC etc. There might be character witnesses they could call.

 

[marynnu]

I suppose that the times LL was animated and inappropriate could be linked to drug use potentially. The noteworthy thing is the changes in perception of LL across time, when did 'nice lucy' become 'erratic, inappropriate, overbearing Lucy?'
I think it's important for the jury to know was she consistently both of these things, or was there a marked behaviour change across relating only to this period in time

Does it matter though?

 

[esther43]

Does it matter though?

Well with some of the evidence, it creates the impression that she was behaving in what I would perceive a sketchy manner in light of the circumstances. I suppose that if this way her way of behaving all of the time I might be less inclined to associate it with the specific events.

 

[Marantz4250b]

She'll have been deemed to have capacity, beyond that I haven't a clue. There's been nothing to suggest she took any kind of drugs, other than alcohol!

I'd be astonished if she were addicted to any sort of substance, or even used any occasionally, to be honest.

Then again, I say that but maybe I wouldn't given what I've already been astonished by in this saga.