UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #2

[Alicethroughtheglass]

If it had any information about any patient on it, then it is considered patient records. Even if the only information on there was the name of the patient. Same goes for staff details.

That is what you are taught in confidentiality training when you join the NHS.

In my experience handover sheets rarely have any personally identifiable information. A lot of acronyms and jargon which might make no sense to a layperson and often just initials or room/bed numbers assigned to each patient.

 

[michelle230]

I wonder how much sympathy LL received from family/friends each time one of these traumas occurred.
I also wonder about the shared closeness/bonding that would inevitably happen amongst the circle of nurses working in the same units. These tragedies must have resulted in a close bonding experience...

 

[Dotta]

Mother of a newborn interrupted Lucy Letby 'while she was killing him'

The child, who can only be named as Baby E for legal reasons, was 'acutely distressed' and found bleeding from the mouth in his cot at Countess of Chester Hospital on August 3, 2015.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[shadowdancer]

In my experience handover sheets rarely have any personally identifiable information. A lot of acronyms and jargon which might make no sense to a layperson and often just initials or room/bed numbers assigned to each patient.

If there is anything at all that might be able to be used to identify the patients involved then it’s still a complete no-no.

Given that the police have worked out that it relates to one of the patients that was allegedly murdered, then there is obviously something identifying on there.

 

[beforethegladness]

It is, unfortunately, very easy to take a handover sheet home. At the end of a 12 hour shift plus an extra hour finishing notes, etc, Nurses are exhausted and mistakes (for example, taking a handover sheet home) can happen.

'12 hour' shifts are not safe for anyone, patients or staff, in my opinion and experience.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I did a quick Google on dr Dewi Evans, he specialises in childhood diabetes and children endocrinology so I guess if he says the only way to get those blood insulin and hormone results is via artificial insulin this must be true?

Playing devils' advocate....again:

1. Medical experts tend not to be inclined to express doubt or uncertainty even if they are.....they must be assertive!

2. I suspect Dr Evans knew who he was being instructed by and who the police were investigating. Unconscious bias for the paymaster who has boosted his ego by calling on his services is likely

3. We haven't heard from any experts yet whose opinion may be quite different. It all depends on who is most convincing in the witness box.

MOO

 

[Cherwell]

If it had any information about any patient on it, then it is considered patient records. Even if the only information on there was the name of the patient. Same goes for staff details.

That is what you are taught in confidentiality training when you join the NHS.

Thank you. Accuracy is important though, and it is best to avoid the spread of misinformation.
It was not a "patient record sheet".

 

[JennyJukes]

Mother of a newborn interrupted Lucy Letby 'while she was killing him'

The child, who can only be named as Baby E for legal reasons, was 'acutely distressed' and found bleeding from the mouth in his cot at Countess of Chester Hospital on August 3, 2015.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Good grief, daily mail headlines are just horrific. They never actually accurately reflect the contents of the article. People don't even click to read, they go by what the headline says. None of this has been definitively proven (yet).

In the case of Rebecca Leighton, when she had been charged (later found innocent and the real culprit found), the dailymail were uploading pictures of her out drinking, posing with a toy gun etc. Comments about her saying she wasn't looking forward to work etc.

I can only imagine the stories journalists would make up about me if they saw my internet history, pictures and comments about my job! I'm not saying this is the case for LL, but as someone mentioned here about possible autism or OCD, I have OCD and when not doing well, I will search the same things over and over again in a sort of obsessive routine that I can't beat. I won't even be reading what I'm searching or taking in any information on the webpage (so if you asked me when I searched it, what I read on that day, I wouldn't remember) but it's just part of a ritual that I cannot break.

When I worked in care, it wasn't professional I know but sometimes we'd text each other a heads up like "K is in a bad mood", "K has had bad news today", just so we could prepare the staff on next shift. We had a really fast paced job, and whilst we had notes to write up, you often got in and the client would be waiting for you so they could go to the toilet etc and you didn't always get a chance to read the notes before starting. At least if you knew the client was in a bad mood, you knew to be quieter when you got on shift, and that would avoid upsetting the client and having a hard shift.

 

[branmuffin]

Interesting comments. Can you imagine if this nurse is innocent, what she must be feeling right now. Absolutely horrific. Surely the possibility of poor equipment or poor hygiene could also be a factor. I remember incidents of hospital equipment which were meant to be sterile being found to have old hardened blood on them.
I hope the truth is found, whatever that may be.

This hospital has been cited in the past for lack of suitable equipment, the most recent report was back in June 2022. This is years after prior reports citing the same deficiencies during the time these babies died.

Here are two interesting articles regarding fatal or life altering air embolisms in two separate cases.

Fatal Systemic Air Embolism in a Neonate after Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Second one:

What is an air embolism and how can it cause harm to patients?

When air enters the circulation it can cause an air embolism, which can result in air bubbles that travel to the brain, heart or lungs. The air…

www.lexology.com

Was LL the go-to nurse to perform these procedures because she had specialist training? If true, then there is not suspicious about her being the once to do the procedures, especially if they were under staffed.

 

[cuecard]

Seems to me a slightly autistic way that someone might try to deal with their own trauma from being involved in each drama. I can see myself behaving exactly like that. Yes, it is a pattern of behaviour, and obviously it is "not done". But I don't see it helps to prove guilt. It does help to prove to the jury that LL is a bit odd person, and hence it will help them believe she could have done those terrible things.

To be fair, in my previous post I said her social media searches prove absolutely nothing because they don’t. But I can see why people would not view it as a good look in this situation.

 

[shadowdancer]

Thank you. Accuracy is important though, and it is best to avoid the spread of misinformation.
It was not a "patient record sheet".

Actually, as per the confidentiality policy of the NHS and the obligations the GDPR places upon the NHS, then any paperwork of any description that contains any information, however vague that could identify a patient, is in fact part of patient records.

 

[Alicethroughtheglass]

If there is anything at all that might be able to be used to identify the patients involved then it’s still a complete no-no.

Given that the police have worked out that it relates to one of the patients that was allegedly murdered, then there is obviously something identifying on there.

The handover sheets would have the date on them, which could easily identify which shift and baby she was caring for based on other records and off duty.

 

[merrypason]

Actually, as per the confidentiality policy of the NHS and the obligations the GDPR places upon the NHS, then any paperwork of any description that contains any information, however vague that could identify a patient, is in fact part of patient records.

Does it make any difference if the handover sheet/patient info was not of her own patient but someone else's? I'm trying to understand why she'd have Child B's handover sheet when the designated nurse was on duty. Wouldn't the designated nurse have the handover sheet in this case?

 

[Music2022]

Playing devils' advocate....again:

1. Medical experts tend not to be inclined to express doubt or uncertainty even if they are.....they must be assertive!

2. I suspect Dr Evans knew who he was being instructed by and who the police were investigating. Unconscious bias for the paymaster who has boosted his ego by calling on his services is likely

3. We haven't heard from any experts yet whose opinion may be quite different. It all depends on who is most convincing in the witness box.

MOO

I wonder what the exact words were. Did he say it’s the only possible explanation for those blood results, or it was a possible explanation. I don’t think he would say “only” if he knew there were other scenarios to cause it as that would hurt his credibility. Difficult to form an opinion without knowing the exact wording.

 

[MsBetsy]

So LL repeatedly searched social media for Child E's parents over a period of months. Then later she searched for Child G's parents and also two other mum's of the children listed within the charges. Why? I can understand initial curisoity after a specific incident but this now clearly seems like a pattern of behaviour.

To me it shows consciousness of guilt that she claimed she didn't remember. She looked through the SM of grieving parents repeatedly for two months and forgot?

 

[JosieJo]

I wonder what the exact words were. Did he say it’s the only possible explanation for those blood results, or it was a possible explanation. I don’t think he would say “only” if he knew there were other scenarios to cause it as that would hurt his credibility. Difficult to form an opinion without knowing the exact wording.

I agree ..as much as Consultants don't want to appear vague ...they also do not want to be made a fool of on the stand by stating incorrect information

 

[Bakers]

A not unreasonable explanation. Not usual but not entirely unreasonable, I wouldn't have said.

Taking in to account how understaffed and lack of graded nurses on duty. Maybe Its done often by other members of staff

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Was LL the go-to nurse to perform these procedures because she had specialist training? If true, then there is not suspicious about her being the once to do the procedures, especially if they were under staffed.

We don't yet know when LL completed her NICU training and if due to staffing issues her training had been abbreviated and/or she'd not received post training support/mentoring in the unit.

I'm concerned that LL may have been making errors but due to the staffing issues in the department and a lack of mentoring these hadn't been identified at an early stage, under a watchful eye, and corrected. It is possible that there is negligence at play, which went unidentified due to the management issues within the unit, as highlighted by the RCPCH.

Maybe one of our nurse specialists can give an idea of how long a NICU training programme would be, such as LL may have completed for the LNU, and its format e.g., home study, classroom training, unit training under supervision, written exam, practical sign off after experiential learning period and ongoing mentoring/refresher/update training?

 

[MachinaCollecta]

Because I think insulin is supposed to go in the bloodstream.

It isn't supposed to go in the stomach. (Hence there are no insulin pills.)

Insulin is almost always injected into the stomach/abdomen tissue area, known as a sub-cutaneous injection. It can also be injected in the legs or buttocks. For babies I’m not 100% sure as I didn’t get diabetes myself until my late teens, but insulin isn’t injected into the bloodstream, it’s injected into fatty tissue (under the skin). For a baby to have been poisoned it would mean injecting a dosage of insulin far in excess of what they need.

 

[annpats]

Insulin is almost always injected into the stomach/abdomen tissue area, known as a sub-cutaneous injection. It can also be injected in the legs or buttocks. For babies I’m not 100% sure as I didn’t get diabetes myself until my late teens, but insulin isn’t injected into the bloodstream, it’s injected into fatty tissue (under the skin). For a baby to have been poisoned it would mean injecting a dosage of insulin far in excess of what they need.

Ahh, lovely, I appreciate your expertise. Thank you.