GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #32

[cuecard]

Some years ago I was a volunteer for a well known suicidal/distress helpline and visited a number of prisons as part of that work. A women’s prison will be full of mothers who love and miss their own children, and I cannot see LL faring well in their company. I wonder if she will be held in isolation.

I would say that is pretty much nailed on that she will not be in general population within whatever jail she ends up in.

 

[kittythehare]

A 24 hrs in police custody on this would be utterly fascinating.

i'd watch that but expect very little because i have a sense she is an expert in closing the doors of her psyche and there are very many doors slammed shut..
I wonder what interrogation tactics they used.
like interviewing a closed book, I imagine..

 

[Marantz4250b]

I wondered if they're keeping most back in case there is a retrial for the no-verdict charges.

Very likely I would think.

 

[kittythehare]

I wondered if they're keeping most back in case there is a retrial for the no-verdict charges.

I sincerely hope there is.
For catharsis for the parents.
They will need that.

 

[Cuko]

i'd watch that but expect very little because i have a sense she is an expert in closing the doors of her psyche and there are very many doors slammed shut..
I wonder what interrogation tactics they used.
like interviewing a closed book, I imagine..

This is why I keep saying I would love the forensic psychiatrists’ reports to be leaked. They are highly skilled professionals and would be wise to every possible manipulation and avoidance tactic. They see the very worst of the worst and I’m convinced they will have identified traits and issues, and gained insights into LL’s mind, that no one else would manage to do.

 

[DinerMite]

Is there a list anywhere of all the new information we've received since verdict? There's so many articles out there now it's hard to keep track and so many bits of new info. I imagine it's unlikely but would be very useful if so

 

[Tortoise]

Thinking out loud here, with the attempted charges, would she receive a fair trial now if there were to be another trial given all that is known about the guilty verdicts and no doubt the notoriety she'll now gain.

IMO - Her trial would be as fair as this one was. I haven't seen anything damaging that's come out about her past, and the jury trying these charges were allowed to treat any guilty verdicts they had already reached as supporting evidence for the other allegations. Previous convictions can be used as bad character evidence in trials where the substantive offence is the same as the alleged offences.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I sincerely hope there is.
For catharsis for the parents.
They will need that.

The problem is that one of the criteria for a prosecution is that there is a "realistic chance of a conviction". There has already been a nine month trial and a month of deliberations on which they couldn't agree verdicts. That would imply that there may not be, imo.

 

[Tortoise]

This is why I keep saying I would love the forensic psychiatrists’ reports to be leaked. They are highly skilled professionals and would be wise to every possible manipulation and avoidance tactic. They see the very worst of the worst and I’m convinced they will have identified traits and issues, and gained insights into LL’s mind, that no one else would manage to do.

We don't know if she has been assessed. With a not guilty plea she wouldn't have to cooperate in psychological evaluations. More commonly they are ordered by judge's for sentencing purposes, although apparently not in this case.

 

[kittythehare]

The problem is that one of the criteria for a prosecution is that there is a "realistic chance of a conviction". There has already been a nine month trial and a month of deliberations on which they couldn't agree verdicts. That would imply that there may not be, imo.

Perhaps new information could be obtained if the framework of the investigation was widened considerably.

It's likely they have much of it but were unable to present it.

 

[Tortoise]

The problem is that one of the criteria for a prosecution is that there is a "realistic chance of a conviction". There has already been a nine month trial and a month of deliberations on which they couldn't agree verdicts. That would imply that there may not be, imo.

I don't know if I agree with that. I do not really comprehend the majority verdicts in this case, sitting side by side with the unanimous ones. Particularly with some of the cases which were very strong on evidence, such as baby E, and the circumstances of baby P's death being virtually identical to baby O.

IMO I think most juries would have been unanimous on almost all of these guilty verdicts.

You would only need one additional juror plus the one (I'm assuming the same one) who was holding out on most, to have resulted in a hung jury.

 

[Rusty Braincells]

I would say that is pretty much nailed on that she will not be in general population within whatever jail she ends up in.

As I mentioned upthread, Rose West is (within the context of a wing full of murderers and other most serious female offenders), even though she killed young women as well as her seven- or eight-year-old stepdaughter and was very likely involved in the murder of her own 15-year-old daughter.

Killing babies might get Letby different treatment as it’s so extreme, but there is not the punishment regime for child killers or sexual offenders in prison that we on the outside often imagine is the case. Frequently, prison life comes to the fore and takes over versus crimes on the outside. That’s why it turns out Ian Watkins was attacked in prison for jealousy over music lessons, not his heinous crimes.

 

[Cluedoneit]

More interesting information in this article. It seems when she was relegated to the admin role, it gave her a chance to cosy up to senior management. Was she just manipulating them, or were there other reasons they were so keen to put themselves on the line for a band 5 nurse, believing her over 7 experienced consultants? The whole thing baffles me tbh!


September 2016

Letby was told about the consultants’ concerns by her RCN representative and submitted a formal grievance about her removal from ward duties.

HSJ understands the consultants have alleged that Letby was able to develop relationships with senior trust executives whilst working in the patient safety team, which may have clouded their judgement.

The consultants have also claimed Mr Chambers at one point met Letby in a café. Mr Chambers said his only meetings with Letby were formal, but said there was one occasion when “she happened to be in the same coffee shop I was in with some senior colleagues…We said nothing other than hello. It is wrong to characterise such a brief and chance encounter as inappropriate”.

Revealed: How trust execs resisted concerns over Letby

Trust bosses questioned the integrity of doctors who first raised concerns about a nurse who has now been convicted of murdering seven babies, and forced the medics to apologise to her, an HSJ investigation has established.

www.hsj.co.uk

I’d really like to know the full extent of her father’s involvement in all this once she was suspended.It very much sounded like he was directing proceedings to the point where he was directly threatening consultants and befriending the management team of her hospital. As Letby was an adult, why was her father allowed such a role in the process, when a union representative would have been appropriate? It seems as though everyone was infantilising her, despite the fact she was old enough to buy her own property and have an affair with a married man.Would the trust have accepted such extensive parental involvement for someone male, non English or working class, especially as legally, they didn’t have to?

 

[Cuko]

We don't know if she has been assessed. With a not guilty plea she wouldn't have to cooperate in psychological evaluations. More commonly they are ordered by judge's for sentencing purposes, although apparently not in this case.

Harold Shipman pleaded not guilty but I know he assessed by forensic psychs pre-trial.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I did not get from the article, that the author had no opinion about LL's guilt or innocence. There were several times in the article that she implied that the prosecution proved their case.

To me, the point of the article was that the author couldn't figure out who LL really was or WHY she did this. That is how I interpreted it anyway. JMO

I found that article very interesting. I can totally see where she was coming from as on the day I attended court I think I said the same on here without trawling back a hundred years. Letby is unreadable it’s really quite bizarre how closed she is.
I do know I couldn’t wait to get out of that courtroom and her orbit as the atmosphere was tangible.
So dark.

 

[cuecard]

As I mentioned upthread, Rose West is (within the context of a wing full of murderers and other most serious female offenders), even though she killed young women as well as her seven- or eight-year-old stepdaughter and was very likely involved in the murder of her own 15-year-old daughter.

Killing babies might get Letby different treatment as it’s so extreme, but there is not the punishment regime for child killers or sexual offenders in prison that we on the outside often imagine is the case. Frequently, prison life comes to the fore and takes over versus crimes on the outside. That’s why it turns out Ian Watkins was attacked in prison for jealousy over music lessons, not his heinous crimes.

With full respect to all of West’s victims, I think on some level there is a difference seen between young women and days/weeks old babies and maybe there shouldn’t be but I think there is.

I previously worked within the criminal justice system, we worked especially close with prisons and prisoners, so maybe I am just basing it off of my own experiences in that environment when I shouldn’t but I just don’t see Letby being in gen pop any time soon.

 

[Cuko]

I’d really like to know the full extent of her father’s involvement in all this once she was suspended.It very much sounded like he was directing proceedings to the point where he was directly threatening consultants and befriending the management team of her hospital. As Letby was an adult, why was her father allowed such a role in the process, when a union representative would have been appropriate? It seems as though everyone was infantilising her, despite the fact she was old enough to buy her own property and have an affair with a married man.Would the trust have accepted such extensive parental involvement for someone male, non English or working class, especially as legally, they didn’t have to?

Those are very interesting points.

 

[JosieJo]

I’d really like to know the full extent of her father’s involvement in all this once she was suspended.It very much sounded like he was directing proceedings to the point where he was directly threatening consultants and befriending the management team of her hospital. As Letby was an adult, why was her father allowed such a role in the process, when a union representative would have been appropriate? It seems as though everyone was infantilising her, despite the fact she was old enough to buy her own property and have an affair with a married man.Would the trust have accepted such extensive parental involvement for someone male, non English or working class, especially as legally, they didn’t have to?

The parents would have not been allowed to participate in her grievance..but ..if LL requested a meeting with the Chief exec and requested a parent came with her for support I can't see them being able to refuse

 

[esther43]

The parents would have not been allowed to participate in her grievance..but ..if LL requested a meeting with the Chief exec and requested a parent came with her for support I can't see them being able to refuse

Well apparently the chief exec was very friendly with letby, was even spotted having coffee with her in a local coffee shop during the investigation.

Revealed: How trust execs resisted concerns over Letby

Trust bosses questioned the integrity of doctors who first raised concerns about a nurse who has now been convicted of murdering seven babies, and forced the medics to apologise to her, an HSJ investigation has established.

www.hsj.co.uk

 

[JosieJo]

Well apparently the chief exec was very friendly with letby, was even spotted having coffee with her in a local coffee shop during the investigation.

Revealed: How trust execs resisted concerns over Letby

Trust bosses questioned the integrity of doctors who first raised concerns about a nurse who has now been convicted of murdering seven babies, and forced the medics to apologise to her, an HSJ investigation has established.

www.hsj.co.uk

Oh really !