UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

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Who issued a photofit of Mr Kipper ,who identified any male individual as Mr Kipper, did Mr Kipper introduce himself to any one ? there is talk of SJL seen arguing with Mr Kipper, a struggle with this individual. We know of a diary entry alluding to a name, but is he real ? DV is of an opinion that's all he is, an entry in a diary.
Jim Dickie asserts Mr Kipper is real, albeit an alias, in that he established other estate agents around Fulham had been similarly contacted by a Mr Kipper at the time. Police photofits were produced in conjunction with two witnesses who has seen Mr Kipper with SL in Shorrolds Rd long enough to have remembered characteristics of his appearance i.e suited, well dressed, slicked back hair etc. A lady witness positively identified Mr Kipper after she stood next to him on the preceding Sunday as he stared in through the window of Sturgis (although long after the event itself). There are vaguer sightings of a man with SL in the Bishops Park/Stevenage Rd/Fulham Palace Rd but no positive identification.
 
Jim Dickie asserts Mr Kipper is real, albeit an alias, in that he established other estate agents around Fulham had been similarly contacted by a Mr Kipper at the time. Police photofits were produced in conjunction with two witnesses who has seen Mr Kipper with SL in Shorrolds Rd long enough to have remembered characteristics of his appearance i.e suited, well dressed, slicked back hair etc. A lady witness positively identified Mr Kipper after she stood next to him on the preceding Sunday as he stared in through the window of Sturgis (although long after the event itself). There are vaguer sightings of a man with SL in the Bishops Park/Stevenage Rd/Fulham Palace Rd but no positive identification.
Jim Dickie asserts Mr Kipper is real, albeit an alias, in that he established other estate agents around Fulham had been similarly contacted by a Mr Kipper at the time

I have not heard this before EE could you post where he states this please.

JMO
 
Jim Dickie asserts Mr Kipper is real, albeit an alias, in that he established other estate agents around Fulham had been similarly contacted by a Mr Kipper at the time. Police photofits were produced in conjunction with two witnesses who has seen Mr Kipper with SL in Shorrolds Rd long enough to have remembered characteristics of his appearance i.e suited, well dressed, slicked back hair etc. A lady witness positively identified Mr Kipper after she stood next to him on the preceding Sunday as he stared in through the window of Sturgis (although long after the event itself). There are vaguer sightings of a man with SL in the Bishops Park/Stevenage Rd/Fulham Palace Rd but no positive identification.
My question remains the same, who identified the individual as Mr Kipper, did he actually visit these estate agents and introduce himself .The photofits were produced in conjunction with two witness's , why did the police therefore put a name to him, its either they took the name and ran with it to identify a suspect or its known what Mr Kipper looked like and the photofits resembled Mr Kipper, and its JC.
 
Here's some further evidence of Mr Kipper's entrepreneurial endeavours in Fulham at the time of SL's disappearance in July 1986.


It ought to come as little surprise to anyone that JC was and remains, the prime suspect.
 
Here's some further evidence of Mr Kipper's entrepreneurial endeavours in Fulham at the time of SL's disappearance in July 1986.


It ought to come as little surprise to anyone that JC was and remains, the prime suspect.
Well it took a very very long time for this to surface and let’s be honest, who’s going to remember seeing a complete stranger looking in the Sturgis window many years later.
Let alone when they actually saw the man, I believe she says he tried to date her.
This sounds very much like the conman that took Sarah Lambert for a £1’000.00, not JC.
The trouble with these sort of accounts is the time it took for them to come forward, there’s just far too much media influence for them to be taken as gospel.
The only people who would endorse them are those who have an agenda and don’t try to evaluate them properly.
 
Here's some further evidence of Mr Kipper's entrepreneurial endeavours in Fulham at the time of SL's disappearance in July 1986.


It ought to come as little surprise to anyone that JC was and remains, the prime suspect.
But we need heed the words of Stuart Sampson, Special case work lawyer, who said on the record on camera, there is no direct evidence link between JC and SLP, therefore its easy to surmise, if SL went into 37a, there is no indication JC did, if HR saw SL with a male there is nothing that indicates its JC, if SL drove her car to Stephenage road there is no indication JC was there, a couple seen arguing, if SL was one of these there is no indication that JC was the male.
It would be interesting to know just what the police think they have but will not satisfy the CPS that there will be any successful outcome in court.
 
What are you on about? The young lady's father reported the incident at Fulham Police Station at the time, sometime shortly after 28th July 1986.

The information was evidently recorded on the record card system. It then lay quietly forgotten.

The fact that the information resurfaced later is irrelevant. The incident was reported and recorded at the time and provides further indicative evidence of JC prowling around Fulham searching for women.
 
Jim Dickie asserts Mr Kipper is real, albeit an alias, in that he established other estate agents around Fulham had been similarly contacted by a Mr Kipper at the time

I have not heard this before EE could you post where he states this please.

JMO

Listen from, roughly, 30 minutes in; computerising the card index information. This is the point i.e. the 2000 reinvestigation, at which police discovered Mr Kipper/JC had been making sallies into Fulham estate agents and attempting to woo other women locally.

The C5 documentary - The Vanishing of Suzy Lamplugh - is another 'must 'see' documentary for those interested in what's known about case.
 

Listen from, roughly, 30 minutes in; computerising the card index information. This is the point i.e. the 2000 reinvestigation, at which police discovered Mr Kipper/JC had been making sallies into Fulham estate agents and attempting to woo other women locally.

The C5 documentary - The Vanishing of Suzy Lamplugh - is another 'must 'see' documentary for those interested in what's known about case.
What this suggests to me is that the estate agencies that were contacted were unable to personally identify JC as the man police named as Kipper he either didnt visit the office personally, arrange a face to face viewing of a property, or provide a traceable contact address or telephone.
If he had the police would have the the proof they needed to secure a case against the man they name as Kipper.

To me this activity is that of a person laying a false trail to distract and confuse an investigation.

JMO
 
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What are you on about? The young lady's father reported the incident at Fulham Police Station at the time, sometime shortly after 28th July 1986.

The information was evidently recorded on the record card system. It then lay quietly forgotten.

The fact that the information resurfaced later is irrelevant. The incident was reported and recorded at the time and provides further indicative evidence of JC prowling around Fulham searching for women.
This seems similar to the JD witness (deceased) whose relatives told him Mr Kipper dropped a suitcase / bag in the canal at Gallows Bridge.
Even JD said he could find no trace of this man’s report.
It appears from what you are saying the police ignored such a vital sighting of Mr Kipper.
 

Listen from, roughly, 30 minutes in; computerising the card index information. This is the point i.e. the 2000 reinvestigation, at which police discovered Mr Kipper/JC had been making sallies into Fulham estate agents and attempting to woo other women locally.

The C5 documentary - The Vanishing of Suzy Lamplugh - is another 'must 'see' documentary for those interested in what's known about case.
Ref CH5, indeed it is and its this very one that the Lawyer says there is no direct link.
 
This seems similar to the JD witness (deceased) whose relatives told him Mr Kipper dropped a suitcase / bag in the canal at Gallows Bridge.
Even JD said he could find no trace of this man’s report.
It appears from what you are saying the police ignored such a vital sighting of Mr Kipper.
The police were overwhelmed with the amount of information provided by the public after their appeal. They couldn't cope and therefore weren't aware of and didn't respond to certain important clues. This has all been noted here before.

There is strong circumstantial evidence that what eventually became their prime suspect was on the prowl in Fulham when SL disappeared. The clues and evidence all fit. Watch the JC dating video. This was filmed close to the time Shirley Banks disappeared. You're watching a rapist and killer, craftily acting out his modus operandi.
 
Ref CH5, indeed it is and its this very one that the Lawyer says there is no direct link.
He is making a technical comment on the quantum of evidence required to bring about a criminal prosecution. There is nothing to stop a case going to trial based on circumstantial evidence alone i.e just indirect evidence. There are no rules as far as I know, which determine that circumstantial evidence automatically carries less weight than other forms of evidence.

The police believed they had sufficient evidence linking JC to SL's disappearance to justify a charge of murder and prove a case in court beyond reasonable doubt. The CPS thought otherwise and it was the absence of a body which complicated the matter and possibly/probably proved crucial in tipping the balance against a prosecution. The CPS don't want to waste money and effort on trials they aren't likely to win but that doesn't mean to say they don't think JC did it.
 
He is making a technical comment on the quantum of evidence required to bring about a criminal prosecution. There is nothing to stop a case going to trial based on circumstantial evidence alone i.e just indirect evidence. There are no rules as far as I know, which determine that circumstantial evidence automatically carries less weight than other forms of evidence.

The police believed they had sufficient evidence linking JC to SL's disappearance to justify a charge of murder and prove a case in court beyond reasonable doubt. The CPS thought otherwise and it was the absence of a body which complicated the matter and possibly/probably proved crucial in tipping the balance against a prosecution. The CPS don't want to waste money and effort on trials they aren't likely to win but that doesn't mean to say they don't think JC did it.
If the Met have enough circumstantial evidence against JC it’s not going to see the light of day until JC passes away.

I’ve watched the JC’s dating video and IMO he wouldn’t have fooled Suzy, the circles she moved in were well out of his reach.

She wanted what PSS appeared to have, wealth, nice house in London and an attractive husband.

She would have not been taken in by the person JC was portraying in his video.

The CPS didn’t think there was enough evidence to gain a conviction and there’s certainly not enough solid evidence in the public domain.

I’m far from a JC fan, however, I expect the police to play by the rules. Announcing that he was their only suspect and they were not looking for anyone else ensured he could not be put on trial.

This effectively killed any possibility of any other line of enquiry being followed and ensured that the Lamplugh family would never get full closure.
 
He is making a technical comment on the quantum of evidence required to bring about a criminal prosecution. There is nothing to stop a case going to trial based on circumstantial evidence alone i.e just indirect evidence. There are no rules as far as I know, which determine that circumstantial evidence automatically carries less weight than other forms of evidence.

The police believed they had sufficient evidence linking JC to SL's disappearance to justify a charge of murder and prove a case in court beyond reasonable doubt. The CPS thought otherwise and it was the absence of a body which complicated the matter and possibly/probably proved crucial in tipping the balance against a prosecution. The CPS don't want to waste money and effort on trials they aren't likely to win but that doesn't mean to say they don't think JC did it.
The qualifier is not what the police believe but what the CPS believe will pass the BARD.
 
The fact that the information resurfaced later is irrelevant. The incident was reported and recorded at the time and provides further indicative evidence of JC prowling around Fulham searching for women.
It really doesn't. It just says that one member of the public saw the excitable police messaging about Mr Kipper, and decided to chip in with a "sighting". There is absolutely no "evidence of JC prowling around Fulham", only that someone may have been doing so. There's no reason to think that the person this member of the public was talking about was either Cannan or was the person seen with an unidentified woman outside 37SR.

I also have a very hard time believing assertions dating from at least 14 years after the fact that a Mr Kipper was approaching local estate agents, and that the 1986 inquiry just plain didn't notice this. For this to be true, an inquiry focused on finding the supposed abductor of a Fulham estate agent by a Mr Kipper must have overlooked reports of multiple Fulham estate agents being approached by a Mr Kipper.

We only have what was supposedly reported and missed at second-hand, but my guess would be that there was actually only one report, and / or the name Kipper wasn't used, and / or nobody ever met him. If the information was as tenuous as that, then it could perhaps have been overlooked. But otherwise it would surely have attracted attention unless there was truly breathtaking police incompetence in 1986.

The wider issue, of course, is that to say that someone was prowling after women in the area, therefore this was JC, is simply not supported by anything we've been shown. For this to be tenable you'd have to show a connection between JC and SJL, which the CPS confirm has not been done, and you'd also have to convince a jury that it cannot have been anyone else; which, AFAIK, has not been attempted.
 
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If you're a Cannan-sceptic, I think in general you start from much further back in terms of what you assume to be known or true. Considered critically, the entire HR sighting looks so questionable as to be worthless for a number of reasons.

First, he said he saw a woman and a man, but he never said he thought he saw SJL. That assumption originated with the police and was stated as a fact at the Tuesday press conference, but it was not based on what HR said he saw.

Second, he said he saw them coming out of a house, but there is no eg. fingerprint evidence I've ever heard that SJL ever went in that house. DV indicates (p99 of his book) that it was forensicated on 29 July. If so, when have the police ever said they have forensic evidence she was inside? I believe the answer is 'never'. It follows that if SJL never went inside, HR did not see SJL.

Third, the man he describes cannot have been the man who drove SJL's car because HR thought he was about 5'8". Someone of that height wouldn't have needed to move a seat positioned to suit a 5'6" woman. It was not moved to that position by a Sturgis colleague either, because per AS' book, the last driver before SJL was James Calvert, who he says is "a small man".

Fourth, elements of HR's account were exaggerated either by HR himself or by MG on his behalf, and then retracted. In either case, it was clearly suggested to him right away that he had witnessed part of an abduction, either by MG saying his colleague was missing or by the police later wanting more details. So he's been coached.

Fifth, the routinely-cited, supposedly corroborating sightings are IMO cherrypicked, actually do not corroborate HR, and exclude those that contradict him. One by ND1 was reported fairly soon, but described a 6' man with a broken nose, and he wasn't sure when he saw the couple between 12 and 4. Another, a Spanish schoolteacher, reported a man in his 40s with a suntan. All these accounts are mutually contradictory. Another, from ND2, came in 2 weeks after the initial publicity and simply repeated the whole police account word for word without adding anything new at all. The only two sightings TV documentaries ever mention are ND1 and ND2; the others, who undermine them, are simply ignored.

Sixth, the HR sighting does not identify anyone in enough detail to be useful. It's not enough to point at the pencil sketch and say, That proves Mr Kipper was Cannan. The sketch could be argued to be practically anybody: Uri Geller, Shakin' Stevens, Nicolas Cage, or of course MG, which is IMO who it actually was.
 
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People seem to come to this case convinced of the guilt of the police Prime Suspect based on all the 'overwhelming' evidence'. All the material that is repeated on virtually every tv doc on the Suzy Lamplugh Mystery.

However, a little evaluating of what exactly the presented evidence is and the 'overwhelming' nature of what's presented falls right away.

John Canaan of course, may have abducted and murdered SL, then again it may well have indeed been someone else .....
 
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