Was Tommy really afraid to tell the truth?

[TrialAddict]

I think GGH is telling the truth about most everything she has said, it's the players that are telling her their stories that are the lairs imo.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

pittsburghgirl~

So just molesting Haleigh would have meant a life sentence for the perpetrator. If she had been badly injured or killed in the act, and the perpetrator implicated the other two as part of the assault (e.g., giving the molester access or permission)--felony murder, again. Such an assault would mean multiple charges for the rape of a child and murder. That looks like the death penalty to me.


I'm not trying to be mean or anything but seriously? with this group of Croslin's? They could not know anything more than if ya get caught ya go to the pokey!!!

But then again here we are 16 months later and they have not cracked yet LE has found no evidence that we know of and Haleigh has not been found so they are smarter than I would have given them credit for. Guess I'm the dummy!:waitasec:

You know, I've thought about this angle, too. It's not likely that Misty is running around worrying about "felony murder" in the way that I described it. And certainly her rather incomplete understanding of things like bail and mandatory minimum sentencing, as evidenced by her phone calls with her mother, back up your point. But I do believe that what Tommy was most afraid of was the legal consequences of being present at the time of Haleigh's murder.

Consider: If Haleigh was molested and killed in the trailer while she was babysitting, how does Misty explain this to Ron? Here's where the idea that Misty is afraid of Ron would actually make some sense because she would have to have been terrified to admit that she and her brother were involved and that she let Tommy and Joe into the mobile home in the first place.

The scenario makes the most sense if Tommy and Misty were also involved, either as being high on drugs while it happened or by participating actively or passively. Getting rid of Haleigh's body would get rid of DNA, especially if the sheets, blankets or clothes were washed or tossed out. Then all Joe (or whoever was the central figure) would have to do is threaten to take them down with him. They wouldn't have to know the felony murder rule to know that being in the same house with a child being murdered would land them in jail, especially if they were doing drugs or Tommy was part of a plan to commit robbery or theft. There really is no way to explain to anyone how Haleigh ended up being murdered while Misty and/or Tommy was in the mobile home without their involvement on some level. And even someone with the brain of a garden mole would know that such a murder would mean life in prison or worse.

It would also make sense that if Tommy saw Joe murder Haleigh, he might fear for his own children as he went in and out of jail and Joe was walking around, free to return to Florida at any time.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

You've made some excellent points, none of which are new to me, some of which I concur, and all of which I've deliberated conscientiously and repeatedly over the course of the past fifteen months. But you've taken my statement out of context. I've considered just about every possible angle to this case, but I've never been able to solidify a theory that places Ron, Misty, Tommy, and Joe at the same location, at the same moment that Haleigh drew her final breath. No, my comment referred to the characterization of cousin Jo as a young man so evil and volatile that he held the ability to impart paralyzing fear into Tommy and Misty. In my opinion, based on his known behavior both before and after Haleigh's death, that description is more befitting of Ron.

One threat I do believe powerful enough to render Tommy silent, among other things, is a potential felony murder charge. If you'll take a gander over at the "Werter Speaks Out" thread, you'll see that I stated as much Thursday night, referencing some of the same material you've posted here today.

I see your point. Thanks for the reply and the opportunity to reconsider your point. Actually, I agree up to the point where the word "evil" enters into the discussion. Ron appears to be volatile and anti-social and stupidly arrogant but I am not sure of "evil." Whoever killed Haleigh is most definitely evil. I just don't think it was RC. I'm hopping over to look at your other post. Thanks.

 

[gngr~snap]

You know, I've thought about this angle, too. It's not likely that Misty is running around worrying about "felony murder" in the way that I described it. And certainly her rather incomplete understanding of things like bail and mandatory minimum sentencing, as evidenced by her phone calls with her mother, back up your point. But I do believe that what Tommy was most afraid of was the legal consequences of being present at the time of Haleigh's murder.

But consider: If Haleigh was molested and killed in the trailer while she was babysitting, how does she explain this to Ron? Here's where the idea that Misty is afraid of Ron would actually make some sense because she would have to have been terrified to admit that she and her brother were involved and that she let Tommy and Joe into the mobile home in the first place.

The scenario makes the most sense if Tommy and Misty were also involved, either as being high on drugs while it happened or by participating actively or passively. Getting rid of Haleigh's body would get rid of DNA, especially if the sheets, blankets or clothes were washed or tossed out. Then all Joe (or whoever was the central figure) would have to do is threaten to take them down with him. They wouldn't have to know the felony murder rule to know that being in the same house with a child being murdered would land them in jail, especially if they were doing drugs or Tommy was part of a plan to commit robbery or theft.

It would also make sense that if Tommy saw Joe murder Haleigh, he might fear for his own children as he went in and out of jail and Joe was walking around, free to return to Florida at any time.

Agreed IF Tommy witnessed or was even present when JO killed Haleigh (not sayin JO did it) I would have to say that he
a: knows JO is capable of murdering a child and
b: would have NO prob doing the same to one or all of his children.

So yep JO scares the bejeezus outta Tommy in this scenario.

:banghead:What I do not get is IF Ron was werkin! and he has even the smallest hint thatJO and or Tommy were involved in killin Haleigh, acoverup or in her disposal, I REALLY THINK he would have offed one or both of them. he knew his lifestyle he knew eventually he would end up in prison for drug dealing and the like MOO...
He in his mind didn't have much to lose (other than seeing Jr grow up) but srsly IF he wasn't involved and offed the ones that were would ANY of us blame him? I know I wouldn't, and that is why I thinkhe was involved because after all the "threats" he did nuthin... MOOOOOO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Agreed IF Tommy witnessed or was even present when JO killed Haleigh (not sayin JO did it) I would have to say that he
a: knows JO is capable of murdering a child and
b: would have NO prob doing the same to one or all of his children.

So yep JO scares the bejeezus outta Tommy in this scenario.

:banghead:What I do not get is IF Ron was werkin! and he has even the smallest hint thatJO and or Tommy were involved in killin Haleigh, acoverup or in her disposal, I REALLY THINK he would have offed one or both of them. he knew his lifestyle he knew eventually he would end up in prison for drug dealing and the like MOO...
He in his mind didn't have much to lose (other than seeing Jr grow up) but srsly IF he wasn't involved and offed the ones that were would ANY of us blame him? I know I wouldn't, and that is why I thinkhe was involved because after all the "threats" he did nuthin... MOOOOOO

I've never bought into the idea that RC would just kill whomever he suspected of killing Haleigh. Sometimes I think that if people were to look at Ron as the parent of a missing child, instead of a suspect, it might be easier to understand a number of his actions. Certainly, if he is innocent, he had to be holding out hope all of this time that his daughter was alive, just as Crystal has done. That is the norm for parents of missing children. Many probably suspect and fear the worst, but hold onto the slight possibility that someone has the child safe, somewhere. Without a body, there can be no closure, no certainly of the child's death, and no reason to get vengeance.

It's an old dilemma, one that drives the plot of Hamlet, to suspect that someone is a murderer but not be able to prove it even to oneself.

 

[cj1132]

I've never bought into the idea that RC would just kill whomever he suspected of killing Haleigh. Sometimes I think that if people were to look at Ron as the parent of a missing child, instead of a suspect, it might be easier to understand a number of his actions. Certainly, if he is innocent, he had to be holding out hope all of this time that his daughter was alive, just as Crystal has done. That is the norm for parents of missing children. Many probably suspect and fear the worst, but hold onto the slight possibility that someone has the child safe, somewhere. Without a body, there can be no closure, no certainly of the child's death, and no reason to get vengeance.

It's an old dilemma, one that drives the plot of Hamlet, to suspect that someone is a murderer but not be able to prove it even to oneself.

I agree that many parents suspect and fear the worst but hold unto the possibility that their child is safe. The problem I have with RC is he has discounted possibilities of what happened to Haleigh. Is it because he doesn't want to consider it because it's too painful or is it because he knows it's not true.

 

[gngr~snap]

I've never bought into the idea that RC would just kill whomever he suspected of killing Haleigh. Sometimes I think that if people were to look at Ron as the parent of a missing child, instead of a suspect, it might be easier to understand a number of his actions. Certainly, if he is innocent, he had to be holding out hope all of this time that his daughter was alive, just as Crystal has done. That is the norm for parents of missing children. Many probably suspect and fear the worst, but hold onto the slight possibility that someone has the child safe, somewhere. Without a body, there can be no closure, no certainly of the child's death, and no reason to get vengeance.

It's an old dilemma, one that drives the plot of Hamlet, to suspect that someone is a murderer but not be able to prove it even to oneself.

Got ya! That was my:twocents: I agree about the vengence. I guess it is because he was so verbal and inflammatory in the beginning it warped my view of him. I never felt the same way about Crystal... or maybe it's cause imma girl and prob would never say anything like that but I guess some women and men do just because they are angry and hurt.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

If we're expected to make sense of these crazy Joe/Tommy stories, (& I'm trying), the whole rat incident is weird. Why did Ron send it? & why did Tommy report it? obviously, Ron wanted Tommy to keep quiet about something. I never bought Ron's ridiculous story of 'testing' Misty. But, if you think about it, Tommy was either pressured into reporting it, from an unsuspecting Linsey, or an opportunist Tommy seized a chance to take any suspicion off of himself, & put it on Ron. Personally, I think Ron was warning Tommy to keep quiet about Joe, & of his, (Ron's), & Misty's involvement. If this stuff is true, Misty may not have told Ron of Tommy's full involvement. because if he knew, why in the world would he expect Tommy to talk? like I said, ratgate is weird, & puts a kink into just about every theory.

We have two different crimes going on here. One is a murder or the covering up of an accidental death. Two is drug trafficking. (And the covering-up in #1 can be attributed to #2). Why are we so positive that the rat was akin to covering up what happened to Haleigh? Is it not equally plausible that the rat was to warn To to keep quiet about the drug situation?

 

[Wendy101]

I think it may have been WBG
http://public.pcso.us/jail/bookingDetails.aspx?SYSID=760768&IMG=52125

This makes no sense to me. Why now? Why was he not scared of Joe today, but he was for the past 14 months?
I think maybe Tommy was scared, but, not of JO. I think there was someone arrested recently,that is presently in jail. Who is it? I have no clue! It can't be Ron because ToC knows Ron has been in jail for awhile now.

 

[kimmera]

I've never bought into the idea that RC would just kill whomever he suspected of killing Haleigh. Sometimes I think that if people were to look at Ron as the parent of a missing child, instead of a suspect, it might be easier to understand a number of his actions. Certainly, if he is innocent, he had to be holding out hope all of this time that his daughter was alive, just as Crystal has done. That is the norm for parents of missing children. Many probably suspect and fear the worst, but hold onto the slight possibility that someone has the child safe, somewhere. Without a body, there can be no closure, no certainly of the child's death, and no reason to get vengeance.

It's an old dilemma, one that drives the plot of Hamlet, to suspect that someone is a murderer but not be able to prove it even to oneself.

BBM~
First of all I want you to know how much I appreciate your very thoughtful and analytical posts! You obviously have a great mind for legal issues, and if you aren't an attorney already you might want to consider that field because you make a very persuasive argument! :gavel:

That being said, I have to say that I think that many of us on here (myself included) DID think of RC as the parent of a missing child when this case first broke. It has only been because of his subsequent actions that I believe that he is (at the very least partially) responsible for HaLeigh's death, and he knows exactly where she is...

And, I just realized that my whole post is OT and I am not in the mood to get spanked, soooo....we'll leave it at that! :angel:

 

[Lanie]

If we're expected to make sense of these crazy Joe/Tommy stories, (& I'm trying), the whole rat incident is weird. Why did Ron send it? & why did Tommy report it? obviously, Ron wanted Tommy to keep quiet about something. I never bought Ron's ridiculous story of 'testing' Misty. But, if you think about it, Tommy was either pressured into reporting it, from an unsuspecting Linsey, or an opportunist Tommy seized a chance to take any suspicion off of himself, & put it on Ron. Personally, I think Ron was warning Tommy to keep quiet about Joe, & of his, (Ron's), & Misty's involvement. If this stuff is true, Misty may not have told Ron of Tommy's full involvement. because if he knew, why in the world would he expect Tommy to talk? like I said, ratgate is weird, & puts a kink into just about every theory.

My theory on the rat in the mailbox, and I apologize if I have my information wrong, as there is so much to keep up with, but, IIRC, LE was called to Ron's because Tommy, Hank Sr., and possibly Lisa had gone over there, the story being to rescue Misty from Ron. A fight broke out between the three males, LE was called, and Ron ended up arrested for assault on Tommy. Wasn't it shortly after this when Tommy found the rat in his mailbox? IMO, the rat is related to this incident, and has nothing to do with Haleigh.

I think, if there is any truth in this latest story by Tommy, JO is more than likely involved as it would have just been easier for him to bring the van over, but I have not seen anything in any of Tommy's actions I am aware of since this started which would imply he was afraid for his family or himself, whether it was Ron or JO.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

My theory on the rat in the mailbox, and I apologize if I have my information wrong, as there is so much to keep up with, but, IIRC, LE was called to Ron's because Tommy, Hank Sr., and possibly Lisa had gone over there, the story being to rescue Misty from Ron. A fight broke out between the three males, LE was called, and Ron ended up arrested for assault on Tommy. Wasn't it shortly after this when Tommy found the rat in his mailbox? IMO, the rat is related to this incident, and has nothing to do with Haleigh.

And yet I see post after post using the rat as "proof" that Ron was involved or knew the "true" story of what happened to Haleigh.

Honestly, in following this whole situation I think that posters would do well to remember that guilt in one crime doesn't mean guilt in another. Being guilty of drug trafficking is heinous, but it does not necessarily make one guilty of killing one's own child. The day may come when RC is shown to be guilty of killing his own child, but to my way of thinking nothing has been offered up to suggest he committed the crime or was involved after the fact. And my requests that proof of these allegations be shown have gone unanswered.

 

[gngr~snap]

The rat was indeed a bad idea! I'm not convinced on Ron one way or the other and I guess I won't be until somebody is charged and the sunshime kicks in! AND if and when I ever get out from under all the documents that are released I'll get back to you on Ron's guilt or innocence.

 

[cj1132]

I think the problem with the rat is what rat signifies.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Just to get us back on track: I think we have to be able to talk about other theories of the case without always being drawn back to RC. I am guilty of going OT in order to stay on topic. That is, every time we start to figure out why Tommy might be afraid to tell the truth, we derail on some issue about how RC has to "know the truth" or why he hasn't killed someone if he suspects the truth....

The issue here is why Tommy might be afraid:
1. Because he saw a child murdered and was therefore a witness fearing for his own life or his children's lives.
2. Because he was in some way involved with the murderer or was the murderer himself, and thus was afraid of consequences.
3. Because if RC ever found out for sure that he killed Haleigh or allowed her to be killed and that Misty let the killer into his home, violence might well have followed.
4. Because the only way to keep himself and his sister out of prison was to go along with the kidnapping story.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

I think GGH is telling the truth about most everything she has said, it's the players that are telling her their stories that are the lairs imo.

Yes and no. The players are telling her their stories, knowing she will embellish. They, more importantly, know that she will blast whatever anyone says to her to the world (with her embellishments, of course). And she will take a side, make a verdict and broadcast the information that supports her decision. And she will relish the attention.

We're talking about a woman who gave birth to someone who became a drug addict who in turn gave birth to drug addicts. Not a whole lot of room for nurturing here. Not a whole lot of room for spreading your wings and flying above your roots. When you can't fly above, you use what is available. And in this case, GGH is available to be used. I would not discount anything she says, because she does speak to some of the principal players in this case, but I would certainly use my fine-toothed comb in weeding through the fact and fiction.

 

[suspicious1]

And yet I see post after post using the rat as "proof" that Ron was involved or knew the "true" story of what happened to Haleigh.

Honestly, in following this whole situation I think that posters would do well to remember that guilt in one crime doesn't mean guilt in another. Being guilty of drug trafficking is heinous, but it does not necessarily make one guilty of killing one's own child. The day may come when RC is shown to be guilty of killing his own child, but to my way of thinking nothing has been offered up to suggest he committed the crime or was involved after the fact. And my requests that proof of these allegations be shown have gone unanswered.

It's not just the rat...it's the rat added to many other things surrounding Ron actions and words. It's not like "oh Ron put a dead rat in the mailbox-he's involved". No, that's crazy...But when you add it to everything else you can't help but to think that he's guilty.

Honestly, I think posters should read every article, listen to every audio, ect, from the beginning and come to their own conclusions. Which I have done. Some posters on here, make their assumptions and conclusions based off other's opinions regarding a subject, KWIM? Instead of finding the source, they just sit back and listen to what has to be said about it...and draw their opinions from that. I'm not speaking about all posters, but I know for a fact that some do that, because I know some personally. They know who they are:innocent:. But I love'em anyway. oke::wave::wave:

We are not here to try to persuade others or convince others that one opinion is better than the other. We are here to try to find out what happened to Haleigh whether we agree or disagree. I, by no means, try to persuade others to feel the way I feel or think the way I think....These are my thoughts and opinions based on what I know.....Take it or leave it. I'm just that kinda woman. And I still want to know:

Where's Haleigh

 

[aoibhinn]

The issue here is why Tommy might be afraid:
1. Because he saw a child murdered and was therefore a witness fearing for his own life or his children's lives.
2. Because he was in some way involved with the murderer or was the murderer himself, and thus was afraid of consequences.
3. Because if RC ever found out for sure that he killed Haleigh or allowed her to be killed and that Misty let the killer into his home, violence might well have followed.
4. Because the only way to keep himself and his sister out of prison was to go along with the kidnapping story.

The thing that stands out most strongly to me is Tommy's rapid deterioration in the month's following Haleigh's disappearance. He appears in footage at the time of Misty's engagement and he's quite heavy. According to himself he had been taking opiates for a year at that stage. (He states in a jailhouse tape to Lindsy that a friend had introduced him to opiates two years previously). Up until that time, he can't have been a heavy user, just a recreational one, because junkies are skinny. After that either his drug use escalated or he was very worried about something or both. In my mind, he appears to have been the most afffected, outwardly at any rate, by Haleigh's fate.

For this reason, I agree with the four points you have made, quoted above. It strikes me that Tommy feels tremendous guilt, even if his part was lesser than everyone else involved. Additionally, I believe he is very afraid of losing Lindsy and his children.

 

[gngr~snap]

The thing that stands out most strongly to me is Tommy's rapid deterioration in the month's following Haleigh's disappearance. He appears in footage at the time of Misty's engagement and he's quite heavy. According to himself he had been taking opiates for a year at that stage. (He states in a jailhouse tape to Lindsy that a friend had introduced him to opiates two years previously). Up until that time, he can't have been a heavy user, just a recreational one, because junkies are skinny. After that either his drug use escalated or he was very worried about something or both. In my mind, he appears to have been the most afffected, outwardly at any rate, by Haleigh's fate.

For this reason, I agree with the four points you have made, quoted above. It strikes me that Tommy feels tremendous guilt, even if his part was lesser than everyone else involved. Additionally, I believe he is very afraid of losing Lindsy and his children.

highlighted by me! junkies ARE skinny. but opiate addicts get a craving for SUGAR! choc cakes, ice cream, popsicles etc and they gain a lot of weight! I have seen it with opiate addicts and my own mother who was dying from end stage cancer and had maxed out on oral meds. She was then placed on transdermal patches for her pain...

 

[aoibhinn]

highlighted by me! junkies ARE skinny. but opiate addicts get a craving for SUGAR! choc cakes, ice cream, popsicles etc and they gain a lot of weight! I have seen it with opiate addicts and my own mother who was dying from end stage cancer and had maxed out on oral meds. She was then placed on transdermal patches for her pain...

The point is more that even though Tommy had been using opiates for a year and quite heavy, after Haleigh's disappearance he lost a tremendous amount of weight. This could be due to worry, guilt, escalated drug use or a combination of all three.

Generally, people on a prescribed dose of pain meds do not lose much weight, they may even gain it. As with those who dabble in drugs or use recreationally. Hardcore junkies, especially younger ones with an active metabolism, are almost always very thin.

I'm very sorry to hear about your mother. That must have been very tough to witness.