Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[DeeDee249]

has anyone ever brought up Patsy as the actual sexual abuser? If we have to theorize all possibilities..could Patsy herself have abused Jon Benet? I know this would be rare, but I beleive in the case of Sybil this was the case. Also recently we had that bizarre case of the young woman who abused and murdered a little neighbor girl.

Patsy was the person in charge of objectifying Jon Benet as a pageant doll.

Has anyone ever thought of Patsy having an exxagerated form of Munchaussen?

Could Patsy have been attention seeking? objectifying her child, sexualizing her child, taking the child to the doctor for po po probs, while she herself is having female probs?
abusing and murdering her child and writing a letter for ransom to get attention and pity?

surely you can't deny that Patsy made quite the grieving figure in her Jackie O glasses.

such a bizarre case.



I still have many questions, and I may have aked this before, but, I wonder what kinds of drugs Patsy was taking for her cancer. I also wonder what Patsy's childhood medical records reveal about her.

All these things have been brought up here at various times and in various ways. Patsy's chemo ended three years before JB's murder, and I would expect she was on the typical regimen. The treatment for ovarian cancer usually includes a complete hysterectomy along with chemo, all designed to put the patient in complete and instant menopause (if they have not completed it naturally) with all the mood swings that go along with it- a total estrogen suppression is what is aimed for, estrogen being known to feed some reproductive tumors.
But Patsy, as part of her treatment or unrelated to it, was also on some anti-anxiety medications and may have been on over-the counter meds like sleep aids, ALL known to provoke violent or unexpected behavior in some patients. JR told LE that Patsy took Klonopin before JB's death, but it is not know how long before or what dosage.
I don't think this kind of thing was looked into very thoroughly by LE, and that was a mistake, because the behavior changes can be extreme. This doesn't just apply to Patsy or this case- these types of side effects are well known.

 

[minazoe]

I am just curious about Patsy, I have read many books on the case, Perfect Town, Perfect Murder, of course is the difinitive and best book. But, still I struggle with Patsy far more than John.

Could John be in extreme denial?

How many times was JB at the doctors office in a given year?

no wonder this case hasn't been solved...you could lose your mind...

 

[UKGuy]

has anyone ever brought up Patsy as the actual sexual abuser? If we have to theorize all possibilities..could Patsy herself have abused Jon Benet? I know this would be rare, but I beleive in the case of Sybil this was the case. Also recently we had that bizarre case of the young woman who abused and murdered a little neighbor girl.

Patsy was the person in charge of objectifying Jon Benet as a pageant doll.

Has anyone ever thought of Patsy having an exxagerated form of Munchaussen?

Could Patsy have been attention seeking? objectifying her child, sexualizing her child, taking the child to the doctor for po po probs, while she herself is having female probs?
abusing and murdering her child and writing a letter for ransom to get attention and pity?

surely you can't deny that Patsy made quite the grieving figure in her Jackie O glasses.

such a bizarre case.



I still have many questions, and I may have aked this before, but, I wonder what kinds of drugs Patsy was taking for her cancer. I also wonder what Patsy's childhood medical records reveal about her.

minazoe,

No reason why not. And someone else staging on her behalf would explain her ignorance whilst telling lies.

.

 

[UKGuy]

I am just curious about Patsy, I have read many books on the case, Perfect Town, Perfect Murder, of course is the difinitive and best book. But, still I struggle with Patsy far more than John.

Could John be in extreme denial?

How many times was JB at the doctors office in a given year?

no wonder this case hasn't been solved...you could lose your mind...

minazoe,

Sure and if you factor in the extended family it becomes worse.


.

 

[minazoe]

I think the most stunning evidence is.

she was carried to the basement

no footprints in the snow

resourcefulness of using art supplies in abuse

the letter



Patsy Ramsey was very convincing. ... she played it with almost narcissistic aplomb. how dare you?...outrageous...I loved THAT child.

we all know in our hearts...what depths some will go to, protect, deny, stay out of jail, pretend, lie at all costs, go to the grave and lie.

the death of jon benet was a world shattering event...the end of everything Ramsey.

the money
the respect
the image

the 16 Christmas Trees

the company

the summer home...

all of it.

and has John really pursued a killer?

not really...he's no John Walsh.

has he retired to pursue Jon Benet's killer? have there been more killings?

until they show me this killer, I have only two possibilities in my mind


and they both lived in the house.

 

[Agatha_C]

has anyone ever brought up Patsy as the actual sexual abuser? If we have to theorize all possibilities..could Patsy herself have abused Jon Benet? I know this would be rare, but I beleive in the case of Sybil this was the case. Also recently we had that bizarre case of the young woman who abused and murdered a little neighbor girl.

Patsy was the person in charge of objectifying Jon Benet as a pageant doll.

Has anyone ever thought of Patsy having an exxagerated form of Munchaussen?

Could Patsy have been attention seeking? objectifying her child, sexualizing her child, taking the child to the doctor for po po probs, while she herself is having female probs?
abusing and murdering her child and writing a letter for ransom to get attention and pity?

surely you can't deny that Patsy made quite the grieving figure in her Jackie O glasses.

such a bizarre case.



I still have many questions, and I may have aked this before, but, I wonder what kinds of drugs Patsy was taking for her cancer. I also wonder what Patsy's childhood medical records reveal about her.

Minazoe,

Another case of a sick female sexual predator and her victim is the Sylvia Liken story and her tormentor Gertrude Baniszewski...

Sylvia Marie Likens (January 3, 1949 - October 26, 1965) was an American murder victim from Indiana. She was tortured to death by Gertrude Baniszewski (née Van Fossan), Gertrude's children, and other young people from their neighborhood. Her parents, who were carnies, had left Likens and her sister Jenny in the care of the Baniszewski family three months before her death in exchange for $20 a week. Baniszewski, two of her children, Paula and John, and two neighborhood youths, Coy Hubbard and Richard Hobbs, were charged and convicted of the crime. Her torture and murder were described by the prosecutor in Baniszewski's trial as "the most terrible crime ever committed in the state of Indiana"

 

[minazoe]

yes, I remember the Likens case...it's interesting when there is a ring leader who is feared and obeyed at all costs, years of abuse and brainwashing, I guess. Loved and feared...children taught to comply.

but this is something very very hidden and I feel that Patsy could have had mental illness...and a very, very complicated situation with a terminal diagnosis. Patsy is a lion and I don't believe she would have allowed John to abuse JB...but I do think there is a possibility for a kind of psycho sexual munchaussen by proxy type of situation...and this is different..

I think in munchaussen by proxy (sic) the person creates sickness in another for the purpose of getting attention and sympathy. It is possible that Patsy herself could have been the cause of JB's po po problems.. and actually intentionally inflaming the issue with bubble baths and other possible behaviors.

I know that Patsy is very charming and she really made me feel badly for thinking she did something to her daughter. And I know she is dead so I feel doubly bad for going back to this idea.

but all the pieces kind of fit , don't they? someone was abusing that girl, they had to have access to her.

 

[UKGuy]

yes, I remember the Likens case...it's interesting when there is a ring leader who is feared and obeyed at all costs, years of abuse and brainwashing, I guess. Loved and feared...children taught to comply.

but this is something very very hidden and I feel that Patsy could have had mental illness...and a very, very complicated situation with a terminal diagnosis. Patsy is a lion and I don't believe she would have allowed John to abuse JB...but I do think there is a possibility for a kind of psycho sexual munchaussen by proxy type of situation...and this is different..

I think in munchaussen by proxy (sic) the person creates sickness in another for the purpose of getting attention and sympathy. It is possible that Patsy herself could have been the cause of JB's po po problems.. and actually intentionally inflaming the issue with bubble baths and other possible behaviors.

I know that Patsy is very charming and she really made me feel badly for thinking she did something to her daughter. And I know she is dead so I feel doubly bad for going back to this idea.

but all the pieces kind of fit , don't they? someone was abusing that girl, they had to have access to her.

minazoe,

but this is something very very hidden and I feel that Patsy could have had mental illness...and a very, very complicated situation with a terminal diagnosis. Patsy is a lion and I don't believe she would have allowed John to abuse JB...but I do think there is a possibility for a kind of psycho sexual munchaussen by proxy type of situation...and this is different..

This is a possibility, but why would Patsy wish to draw attention to something that may instigate a criminal investigation? Patsy's family background encouraged the pageants, the Paughs accompanied Patsy and JonBenet to the pageants, so they obviously had JonBenet's future all mapped out.

If you think Patsy had some kind of mental illness, consider how this must have impacted on JonBenet, no wonder she was wetting the bed.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

minazoe,

This is a possibility, but why would Patsy wish to draw attention to something that may instigate a criminal investigation? Patsy's family background encouraged the pageants, the Paughs accompanied Patsy and JonBenet to the pageants, so they obviously had JonBenet's future all mapped out.

If you think Patsy had some kind of mental illness, consider how this must have impacted on JonBenet, no wonder she was wetting the bed.


.

It has long been discussed here that Patsy very possibly had some form of mental illness, possibly even caused by her chemotherapy or other medications she was on at the time. Klonipin was found in her medicine cabinet. Over the counter meds like sleep aids, can also have severe side effects. Anyone in the US familiar with the TV ads for these drugs will recall the litany of terrifying side effects- sleepwalking being the least of them, driving a car while sleepwalking and having no memory of it, violent or suicidal thoughts or actions being the worst of them.

 

[UKGuy]

It has long been discussed here that Patsy very possibly had some form of mental illness, possibly even caused by her chemotherapy or other medications she was on at the time. Klonipin was found in her medicine cabinet. Over the counter meds like sleep aids, can also have severe side effects. Anyone in the US familiar with the TV ads for these drugs will recall the litany of terrifying side effects- sleepwalking being the least of them, driving a car while sleepwalking and having no memory of it, violent or suicidal thoughts or actions being the worst of them.

DeeDee249,
Sure, thats a possibility. She may even have been psuedo-schitzophrenic or whatever personality disorder describes the denial and concealment of familial abuse?


.

 

[MFFJM2]

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Burke Ramsey was the individual responsible for the sexual assaults some investigators and some MDs believe she had suffered for a considerable period of time. Suppose that Burke Ramsey was particularly upset and jealous of the attention his little sister was getting. Suppose that Burke brought his little sister down to that room to molest her and when she objected he hit her with the flashlight he was carrying. Suppose that Jon Benet cried out at that moment loud enough for a neighbor to hear her. Suppose that Burke ran back upstairs placing the flashlight in the kitchen where it was found by investigators. Suppose that John and Patsy Ramsey discovered their daughter's apparently lifeless body, partially undressed, and decided to make it look like an intruder so their son wouldn't be put away (as far as they knew). Suppose Patsy Ramsey wrote the note (evidence supports this conjecture), in which John Ramsey told her what to write, based on movies he'd recently watched (like "Speed"). Suppose that Patsy began to write the first note (practice note) in cursive and John had to tell her to switch to non-cursive. The practice note was then discarded. Suppose that John Ramsey placed the note on the stairs, and then went down to dress his daughter's body, only to discover she was still alive, although non-responsive. Would he disregard the plan, and call for an ambulance..? This would surely mean that his son would be convicted of attempted murder and sexual abuse of a minor, even if the little girl lived. Or would he strangle her using the cord he had brought with him to bind her hands..?

 

[DeeDee249]

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Burke Ramsey was the individual responsible for the sexual assaults some investigators and some MDs believe she had suffered for a considerable period of time. Suppose that Burke Ramsey was particularly upset and jealous of the attention his little sister was getting. Suppose that Burke brought his little sister down to that room to molest her and when she objected he hit her with the flashlight he was carrying. Suppose that Jon Benet cried out at that moment loud enough for a neighbor to hear her. Suppose that Burke ran back upstairs placing the flashlight in the kitchen where it was found by investigators. Suppose that John and Patsy Ramsey discovered their daughter's apparently lifeless body, partially undressed, and decided to make it look like an intruder so their son wouldn't be put away (as far as they knew). Suppose Patsy Ramsey wrote the note (evidence supports this conjecture), in which John Ramsey told her what to write, based on movies he'd recently watched (like "Speed"). Suppose that Patsy began to write the first note (practice note) in cursive and John had to tell her to switch to non-cursive. The practice note was then discarded. Suppose that John Ramsey placed the note on the stairs, and then went down to dress his daughter's body, only to discover she was still alive, although non-responsive. Would he disregard the plan, and call for an ambulance..? This would surely mean that his son would be convicted of attempted murder and sexual abuse of a minor, even if the little girl lived. Or would he strangle her using the cord he had brought with him to bind her hands..?

His son would never have been arrested or convicted of anything because he was under 10 years old. In Colorado, he could have killed many people. Doesn't matter. He ain't goin' down. IMO, they didn't call for help because it would have ruined their lives, even if their son couldn't be held accountable. Tying to play this as an intruder kidnapping/murder was a way to get out from under it. And it worked, didn't it?

 

[DeeleyM]

This is my 1st post; although I've been lurking for ages. I just want to say to MFF...& DeeDee, ' I think you're on to something.' I've been thinking along these lines for yonks. I've always said that the Rams would prefer to cover up for one of their children killing the other rather than ruin that remaining childs life (Burke) with publicity & judgements etc. John (& Patsy to a degree) had already lost Beth as well. For a parent of 4 children, 2 of them being killed, PLUS a life of eternal public shame for another would be too much. Yep, try to play this as an intruder/kidnapping/murder, no probs.

 

[Nom de plume]

His son would never have been arrested or convicted of anything because he was under 10 years old. In Colorado, he could have killed many people. Doesn't matter. He ain't goin' down. IMO, they didn't call for help because it would have ruined their lives, even if their son couldn't be held accountable. Tying to play this as an intruder kidnapping/murder was a way to get out from under it. And it worked, didn't it?

DeeDee this response isn't directed at you personally, but since you brought it up I decided to reply to you. A number of posters keep referring to the fact that BR couldn't be charged. That is a fact....BUT....

Do you know what the laws of your state are regarding children being charged with murder? I don't, and I seriously doubt many people do know (except people in the state of CO since this murder). Just because BR couldn't be charged, it doesn't mean that JR and/or PR knew that at the time. Why would they? I suppose it's possible that they called MB or some other atty on the "missing" cell phone and found out, but it's not the kind of information most people would know off the top of their head.

Personally, I don't think BR's age or legal status had anything to do with the murder or staging as I don't believe he was involved. I think JR was trying to cover his own :butthead: not BR's.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Just wanted to share an interesting tidbit that may have been forgotten over the years: The R's finally talked to LE on April 31, 1997. The next day, was the first time they spoke to the media since the January 1 appearance. Coincidence? I think not.

Another sad thing is I was reading about these two little girls who were kidnapped when they got off their school bus. It doesn't seem like there was much (if any) national media coverage of the case which I found strange. Then I looked at the date they went missing; May 1, 1997. -_-

 

[midwest mama]

This is my 1st post; although I've been lurking for ages. I just want to say to MFF...& DeeDee, ' I think you're on to something.' I've been thinking along these lines for yonks. I've always said that the Rams would prefer to cover up for one of their children killing the other rather than ruin that remaining childs life (Burke) with publicity & judgements etc. John (& Patsy to a degree) had already lost Beth as well. For a parent of 4 children, 2 of them being killed, PLUS a life of eternal public shame for another would be too much. Yep, try to play this as an intruder/kidnapping/murder, no probs.

The theory suspected --Burke started it with a sexual rage attack, JR and Patsy found it out (the scream could have alerted them) then collaborated on preparing the note, with John to take care of the final staging methods, and ultimately the ligature strangulation -- can very well provide for many aspects of the case being explained. :moo:

JB's attack might have even occurred while Patsy was finishing the final trip preparations, and JR had retired to their bedroom quarters, just barely getting settled in. Perhaps Patsy had helped set the kids up with a quick snack, with promises they would then get quickly off to bed. But, getting busy with tasks, or maybe even stopping to rest a bit and falling asleep, the scream alerted her possibly from the second floor while still dressed from the party. She would have headed immediately towards the lower levels, and John would have also either jumped up immediately, tossing his shirt back on as he headed downstairs, or responded to Patsy's cries for help.

This scenario, in my mind's eye, allows for Patsy's fibers to be transferred to JB as she might have tried to revive her (shaking) or cradled her, or tried to attend to her if John then carried her and placed her near the paint tray, as a spot to prepare her for the intruder kidnapping/murder they would have contrived. If Patsy then left the scene out of anguish and terror, thinking JB dead from Burke's attack, and depended upon John to finish the details, she would not have realized John discovered JB was still alive and would have strangled her intentionally.

Of course, JR would never have disclosed this fact to Patsy, thinking she would forever assume it was Burke's attack that killed JB. He was off the hook, with Patsy forever devoted to protecting Burke from being taken from them due to his mental/emotional disorder(s) causing JB's death.

Total collusion all around, with Burke's behaviors being probably medically responsible, Patsy's out of sheer desperation for protection of Burke, and John's being to save Burke for Patsy's sake (and his), but ultimately to save himself from being charged with JB's murder. It all fits - sickeningly, sadly, and horribly so.

And unless JR faces charges for the ligature strangulation, the case will stay open forever - cold as ice and the blood that must run in JR's veins.

 

[wengr]

Too much is made of the law regarding those under 10yo imo. As has been said it's unlikely they would be aware of it. It's also unlikely they could get a dependable legal opinion in the middle of the night. While it might play a huge part after the fact, I suspect it had no bearing during the staging. I think that the R's were not going to allow the legal system to address the issue, but instead decided to keep it inhouse and deal with it privately in their own way.
I feel that shame and a desire to keep the real situation hidden, combined with a strong distaste for the thought of social services/police dictating the outcome are the reasons for the staging. Had whoever decided to stage known the law that night I believe they would have made a similiar choice anyway.

 

[Darlene733510]

I wonder what time JR first called his lawyers. Perhaps he told them that Burke and JB were fooling around, and that JB was badly hurt. Would the lawyers have known about CO law, and that Burke could not be charged? Had JR staged the scene before he called the lawyers, or after? The head bash would have killed her, so all the staging was done to hide the sexual exploitation of a 6 year old, but who were the molesters? Who hated JB, and would not seem sad or sorry that she died? Big Brother, who would now get all the attention IMOO.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I think the lawyers would have definitely known about the law. They were certified for the bar in Colorado. I would think that would be basic knowledge to them.

 

[wengr]

I think the lawyers would have definitely known about the law. They were certified for the bar in Colorado. I would think that would be basic knowledge to them.

all lawyers are not criminal lawyers, so while they may be aware of the existance of the statute - do they really have a valid opinion as to the eventual disposition of the situation? For example: If the law keeps the minor from being charged, will social services become involved and if so to what extent? To what degree are records kept? How many people in the system will have access to this info? And what is the real world likelyhood that it will leak?
The sad fact is that there are factors beyond the actual letter and spirit of the law that sometimes influence outcomes. JR is a smart and connected guy who would understand this better than most. He might be able to wake someone who passed the bar and get their opinion - but would he bet his son's future on it? Apparently not.