Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[Tortoise]

I've fought it for a while, but I can't stall it off any longer. There's something I wanted to pursue from this. I asked if you thought JB and JR had an "appointment" that night.

When I read that, I pictured JB and JR making a "game" out of it. Well, I've heard it said that a lot of molesters will introduce molestation to the child as if it were a game, for obvious reasons. Admittedly, that would apply between children, as well. "Playing doctor," etc.

Tortoise, if I'm way off base here, please tell me.

I'm still thinking about it. Won't be too long I promise!

 

[Tortoise]

I've fought it for a while, but I can't stall it off any longer. There's something I wanted to pursue from this. I asked if you thought JB and JR had an "appointment" that night.

When I read that, I pictured JB and JR making a "game" out of it. Well, I've heard it said that a lot of molesters will introduce molestation to the child as if it were a game, for obvious reasons. Admittedly, that would apply between children, as well. "Playing doctor," etc.

Tortoise, if I'm way off base here, please tell me.

Right. I'm not really ready to put this out there as a theory, it's only something that occurred to me yesterday as a - what if? So it's not developed, it's sketchy.

It started purely from the idea that Patsy told detectives before JonBenet was brought up from the basement, that she was wearing the red turtleneck and white long underwear.
So I thought why would she say that? If she knew JonBenet was not wearing the red top, she would know that sooner or later the detectives would discover it in her bathroom. It hadn't been hidden.
Was it a ploy to make police later think the intruder/kidnapper/killer had taken off JonBenet's red top and replaced it with the same white top she had worn that day, but left her in the white leggings? I doubt it. I can't find a reason for that.
If anything, there is less likelihood of a stranger's DNA being found on the red turtleneck than there is on the new white Gap top worn outside the house that day.
So I do believe Patsy genuinely thought JonBenet was wearing the red turtleneck and white leggings. Which can only mean that she was wearing the red top when Patsy last saw her.

Next line of thought - why would JonBenet be wearing the red turtleneck? Personally I would never wear a high-neck top to bed, it would be too warm. JonBenet's bedroom was a warm room anyway, from what I've read. So I don't think it was to get ready for bed.

Other random thoughts -

JonBenet did not want to dress to look like Patsy. This makes me wonder. Did she associate dressing up like mummy with another role expected of her, a game her father liked to play?
Did she refuse to wear the red top on Christmas day because of this association and it made her anxious?
Did she start to soil herself, because she was anxious, and then get taken quickly to the toilet?
JonBenet was either naked from the waist down when she bled and had to be cleaned, or she was wearing something other than the size 12 underwear and white leggings on her lower half. Because those spots of blood in her underwear aren't consistent with bleeding that needs to be cleaned from her thighs.

Take it away Dave.

 

[Tortoise]

Oh yes, something to add.

This idea means Patsy saw and last remembered JonBenet in the red top.
After that, John had to have removed it without Patsy knowing, and put her white top back on. Maybe he thought police would ask questions about the turtleneck not really being sleepwear. He knew the Whites had seen JonBenet in the white top, so the change into non-sleepwear after they got home would be suspicious.
He carried JonBenet down to the basement, and in the stress of everything, Patsy didn't twig.

 

[OliviaG1996]

Didn't Dr Henry Lee say on the network special that there were no obvious signs of sexual abuse?


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He and Spitz agreed there was no sexual assault the night of her death, to which Kolar inquired about the blood in her underwear, which made it seem to me like Kolar disagreed. There was no talk of the sexual abuse. I personally think it was covered in the additional two hours that were removed suspiciously.

 

[BBB167893]

Didn't Dr Henry Lee say on the network special that there were no obvious signs of sexual abuse?


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I believe he was referring to the "assault" that night.

 

[BBB167893]

Right. I'm not really ready to put this out there as a theory, it's only something that occurred to me yesterday as a - what if? So it's not developed, it's sketchy.

It started purely from the idea that Patsy told detectives before JonBenet was brought up from the basement, that she was wearing the red turtleneck and white long underwear.
So I thought why would she say that? If she knew JonBenet was not wearing the red top, she would know that sooner or later the detectives would discover it in her bathroom. It hadn't been hidden.
Was it a ploy to make police later think the intruder/kidnapper/killer had taken off JonBenet's red top and replaced it with the same white top she had worn that day, but left her in the white leggings? I doubt it. I can't find a reason for that.
If anything, there is less likelihood of a stranger's DNA being found on the red turtleneck than there is on the new white Gap top worn outside the house that day.
So I do believe Patsy genuinely thought JonBenet was wearing the red turtleneck and white leggings. Which can only mean that she was wearing the red top when Patsy last saw her.

Next line of thought - why would JonBenet be wearing the red turtleneck? Personally I would never wear a high-neck top to bed, it would be too warm. JonBenet's bedroom was a warm room anyway, from what I've read. So I don't think it was to get ready for bed.

Other random thoughts -

JonBenet did not want to dress to look like Patsy. This makes me wonder. Did she associate dressing up like mummy with another role expected of her, a game her father liked to play?
Did she refuse to wear the red top on Christmas day because of this association and it made her anxious?
Did she start to soil herself, because she was anxious, and then get taken quickly to the toilet?
JonBenet was either naked from the waist down when she bled and had to be cleaned, or she was wearing something other than the size 12 underwear and white leggings on her lower half. Because those spots of blood in her underwear aren't consistent with bleeding that needs to be cleaned from her thighs.

Take it away Dave.

You're doing fine. I can't buy that she was put to bed with that star top on. Didn't seem like sleepwear to me.

Also, I think it would have been too risky to try anything with JonBenet that night. Time was too much of a crunch.

What you say about the blood spots is something I've thought about a long time. Could they have gotten there when JR carried her?

 

[BOESP]

Iirc, Patsy reported that she and JonBenet argued over wearing matching outfits to the White's Christmas supper (which included wearing the red turtleneck). Patsy said JonBenet put up a real fuss about *not* wearing the red turtleneck because she wanted to wear her white top with the sequin star. Patsy finally acquiesced with the stipulation JonBenet would wear the red turtleneck the next day when they flew to Charlevoix.

Patsy said she dressed JonBenet in the red turtleneck and put her to bed after the family returned home. She said that pre-dressing the kids and putting them to bed was usual procedure when they planned to fly out of town in early morning hours. It allowed them to remain asleep longer and avoided the hassle of getting them ready to travel the next morning (my paraphrasing).

After 20 years, I don't remember where I read this but it sounded credible and stuck in my mind (maybe in Steve Thomas's book).

 

[madeleine]

PR clearly states in her 97 interview that she has no idea whether BR was in the same bed cause she did NOT enter the room, JR did. What about BR's story re her rushing into his room my baby my baby?? LIARS

 

[Userid]

Iirc, Patsy reported that she and JonBenet argued over wearing matching outfits to the White's Christmas supper (which included wearing the red turtleneck). Patsy said JonBenet put up a real fuss about *not* wearing the red turtleneck because she wanted to wear her white top with the sequin star. Patsy finally acquiesced with the stipulation JonBenet would wear the red turtleneck the next day when they flew to Charlevoix.

Patsy said she dressed JonBenet in the red turtleneck and put her to bed after the family returned home. She said that pre-dressing the kids and putting them to bed was usual procedure when they planned to fly out of town in early morning hours. It allowed them to remain asleep longer and avoided the hassle of getting them ready to travel the next morning (my paraphrasing).

After 20 years, I don't remember where I read this but it sounded credible and stuck in my mind (maybe in Steve Thomas's book).

Hopefully this doesn't bring out the pitchforks against me, but I must admit, this all does sound credible.

Although another aspect of that is: if something was going to truly set PR off that night as far as the bed-wetting theory goes, the fact she had dressed JBR in the "nice" clothes she was supposed to wear the next morning (all but destroying that plan once she wet the bed), just adds more fuel to the fire in my view.

PR said she dressed her in the red turtle-neck, but she didn't use the pants she would wear the next morning, right (meaning, she dressed her for bed with just the sweater, but with the white pajama leggings)? That alone is suspicious and doesn't make much sense.

 

[madeleine]

TT: Right around the corner. Okay. When did you check on burke during all this? You talked about John going to check on Burke.

PR: Yeah. I think he ran and check on him when I was up, up there uh, you know, it just all happened so fast. I said, ‘Oh, my God. What about Burke?’ And I think he ran in and checked him while I was running back downstairs or something.

TT: Okay.

PR: But I remember he, you know, I think he ran and checked on him and, and he told me he was okay or whatever.

TT: Okay. Was Burke still in the same bed? He hadn’t moved beds or anything like that?

PR: I don’t know. I didn’t go in there and look..

 

[madeleine]

Something else interesting....

PR: Before she got there.

TT: Do you remember back in ’94, typical doctor’s visit, you fill out all those forms, making some sort of a notation, on one of Dr. Beuf’s forms about bed-wetting and soiling. That was kind of a concern, you remember anything?

PR: No, before was when I was having chemotherapy. I don’t remember. Susanne took them to the doctor a lot then. My housekeeper, a nanny sort of. I don’t remember. I mean if…

TT: Do you recall filling out these so-called, yes/no question type forms back then?

PR: If I saw it I might remember it.

 

[madeleine]

I am sure most of you mothers out there will agree with me. If one of my kids is kidnapped I would PERSONALLY go check the other child to make sure he's ok. I wouldn't care that my husband says or feels he's fine. I NEED to make sure myself wtf. LOl and one year later she doesnt even remember if she checked on him or if it was JR. Unbelievable!!!

I CAN NOT believe this case was not solved. With proper follow up questions it would have been over long ago.:gaah:

 

[UKGuy]

Hopefully this doesn't bring out the pitchforks against me, but I must admit, this all does sound credible.

Although another aspect of that is: if something was going to truly set PR off that night as far as the bed-wetting theory goes, the fact she had dressed JBR in the "nice" clothes she was supposed to wear the next morning (all but destroying that plan once she wet the bed), just adds more fuel to the fire in my view.

PR said she dressed her in the red turtle-neck, but she didn't use the pants she would wear the next morning, right (meaning, she dressed her for bed with just the sweater, but with the white pajama leggings)? That alone is suspicious and doesn't make much sense.

Userid,
On the turtleneck Patsy might be partially telling the truth. She is just leaving out the bits that conflict with the Ramsey's version of events.

The R's had all night to stage JonBenet. if it had been a parent the soiled clothes would have been run through the washing machine, then the tumble dryer, with Jonbenet being redressed in a nice bedtime outfit.

JonBenet was dressed in the white gap top simply to match the R's version of events. Although the size-12's don't help much.

So JonBenet being dressed in the turtleneck is consistent with what Patsy says. Dressing JonBenet in Burke's long johns does not make sense with a complete wardrobe of bedclothes available.

So Patsy likely forgot and misspoke about the turtleneck, yet another example of the R's retracing their steps.

.

 

[icedtea4me]

Iirc, Patsy reported that she and JonBenet argued over wearing matching outfits to the White's Christmas supper (which included wearing the red turtleneck). Patsy said JonBenet put up a real fuss about *not* wearing the red turtleneck because she wanted to wear her white top with the sequin star. Patsy finally acquiesced with the stipulation JonBenet would wear the red turtleneck the next day when they flew to Charlevoix.

Patsy said she dressed JonBenet in the red turtleneck and put her to bed after the family returned home. She said that pre-dressing the kids and putting them to bed was usual procedure when they planned to fly out of town in early morning hours. It allowed them to remain asleep longer and avoided the hassle of getting them ready to travel the next morning (my paraphrasing).

After 20 years, I don't remember where I read this but it sounded credible and stuck in my mind (maybe in Steve Thomas's book).

It would be helpful to know exactly how the exchange regarding the red turtleneck went.

IMO, the only one who could have gone to bed (maybe fell asleep for a brief time) wearing a red turtleneck that night was Patsy.

 

[BOESP]

Hopefully this doesn't bring out the pitchforks against me, but I must admit, this all does sound credible.

Although another aspect of that is: if something was going to truly set PR off that night as far as the bed-wetting theory goes, the fact she had dressed JBR in the "nice" clothes she was supposed to wear the next morning (all but destroying that plan once she wet the bed), just adds more fuel to the fire in my view.

PR said she dressed her in the red turtle-neck, but she didn't use the pants she would wear the next morning, right (meaning, she dressed her for bed with just the sweater, but with the white pajama leggings)? That alone is suspicious and doesn't make much sense.

BBM #1 - yes, that is a correct interpretation

BBM #2 - I don't remember for sure but it seems like Patsy hum-hawed around answering questions about the white leggings. Somewhere along the line, she said the leggings helped keep the kids warm during Colorado winter nights, and also the house often was cold and drafty (or words to that effect) so she put them on and would change them after they got to Michigan. I agree, It doesn't make sense that she would change the top and not the bottoms except that she may have thought JonBenet might wet the bottoms. Seems like the black velvet pants were involved in this convoluted report.

 

[BOESP]

It would be helpful to know exactly how the exchange regarding the red turtleneck went.

IMO, the only one who could have gone to bed (maybe fell asleep for a brief time) wearing a red turtleneck that night was Patsy.

Here you go: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?47489-The-Red-Turtleneck&p=12924664#post12924664

The above should explain more about the red turtleneck. There's more in Steve Thomas's book but I no longer have a copy.

 

[BBB167893]

PR clearly states in her 97 interview that she has no idea whether BR was in the same bed cause she did NOT enter the room, JR did. What about BR's story re her rushing into his room my baby my baby?? LIARS

Great catch, Maddy!

 

[lizzyk]

I cannot decide who- JR, AR or grandad- is responsible for the molestation prior to the murder....
But I think at the same time JB and BR also liked to play sexual games. JB in the early stages of molestation could've been brainwashed to believe doing these things are ok.
So that night the kids end up in the basement wanting to snoop for more presents. ...it turns into that game. ..burke wants to try and do what JB told him/or what he saw Mr X do to her.
He uses a paintbrush. He gets rough, stabs too hard causing the bleed. She screams.

I am unsure if he then panicked and ended up killing JB or if PR came down and lost it. If she was abused herself she would've gone extra crazy and hit JB by mistake im the frenzy.

I do not see the paintbrush as a way to cover up previous abuse....how does that even make sense. Plus it seems very juvenile to me.

 

[BBB167893]

I cannot decide who- JR, AR or grandad- is responsible for the molestation prior to the murder....
But I think at the same time JB and BR also liked to play sexual games. JB in the early stages of molestation could've been brainwashed to believe doing these things are ok.
So that night the kids end up in the basement wanting to snoop for more presents. ...it turns into that game. ..burke wants to try and do what JB told him/or what he saw Mr X do to her.
He uses a paintbrush. He gets rough, stabs too hard causing the bleed. She screams.

I am unsure if he then panicked and ended up killing JB or if PR came down and lost it. If she was abused herself she would've gone extra crazy and hit JB by mistake im the frenzy.

I do not see the paintbrush as a way to cover up previous abuse....how does that even make sense. Plus it seems very juvenile to me.

You raise some good points, lizzyk. I would just say that, to me, using the paintbrush was supposed to erase the prior abuse by doing more damage. That's not what happened, though.

 

[Annapurna]

You raise some good points, lizzyk. I would just say that, to me, using the paintbrush was supposed to erase the prior abuse by doing more damage. That's not what happened, though.

I know that is a popular theory, but wouldn't doing that just bring more attention to the area? The entire rest of the staging seems to be hiding evidence of the SA (cleaning, redressing her body, the RN to point away from the sexual motive etc).

Do we know as a conclusive fact that the "splinter" (Steve Thomas) or "birefringent material" (Kolar) or "cellulose" (icr who said that) is a part of the paint brush? Or is that still up for debate? It's still possible it was secondary transfer of course, but if it was conclusively linked it would go a long way in how likely I find that theory.


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