AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #25

[Jethro4WS]

My mind still keeps kicking these facts around:

* First responding LE on the scene at the Closs house advises dispatch of "possible suicide attempt."

* Sheriff says the deaths of Denise and James Closs are ruled homicides, because both died of gunshot wounds and no gun was found on the scene. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was a bit strange the way the Sheriff worded it.

* Sheriff's Department says "this case is particularly interesting as there were no weapons found on scene."

By my reading, these facts -- taken together -- make me think there was something odd about the shootings -- something that at least seemed to suggest that if not for the lack of a gun being found at the scene, one of the deaths could be perceived as a suicide.

Even if I'm off on my analysis, these three facts are really bugging me; I think LE sees something strange about the shootings, but is keeping the info, understandably, close to the vest.

The "possible suicide attempt" came not more than a few minutes of arriving on scene. Based on the reading of the call log the observation of the officer (329) of a possible suicide attempt had to be from some distance from James because it would be a little over a minute later when another officer (325) makes the observation of multiple rounds spent which means the officers were much closer to James at that point. If there were multiple visible rounds but Denise was not visible from where the officers found James (i.e. in another room) then it would be a very good bet at the time that they were not dealing with a possible suicide with respect to James. It seems from the next entry 1 minute later where yet another officer (317) requests the Emergency Response Team (tactical team) that suicide was no longer the operative situation (at least with respect to James) as you don't call in such a team for a suicide as the event is already over. That the log doesn't reflect a change until later is irrelevant as the actions and activities indicate that law enforcement was working the situation differently.

Also, at that time around the initial assessment no processing of the crime scene occurred, no analysis of the crime scene occurred. They hadn't even cleared the house, let alone found Denise at that point. They wouldn't be able to absolutely rule out a murder-suicide until they could be certain that there were no guns found. That couldn't be done until the scene was processed and photographed and some forensic mapping was done before they could move the bodies or items with evidence on them to see if a gun was under any of them.

We don't know what the situation was with Denise, whether she was shot multiple times or not. For example, if Denise had only one wound, or only one obvious wound, law enforcement wouldn't be able to know just from simple observation whether murder-suicide was still on the table - with Denise being the shooter and a firearm being under her or under something else that couldn't be moved yet.

So, all in all, I wouldn't put too much stock in an initial observation (from a distance) as the log reflects two hours after the initial observation that they were indeed dealing with a homicide.

 

[photographer4]

I watch way too much tv, and had this random idea pop into my head late last night:

What if someone was younger and their parents had issues with the Closs parents... maybe fired from work, and it lead to them becoming homeless or whatever? Then their son grew up and exacted his revenge on the Closs parents for their role in how his life devolved into a life of poverty, drugs and crime? He's jealous b/c their daughter lives a life of luxury (in his eyes, true or not, its true to him)... so he takes the princess to.....??? idk. Ugh.

 

[muppethead]

I know the whole suicide thing gets people worked up on here. But I agree with you. The 'advised of a possible suicide attempt', then a minute later 'man down, possible suicide', gets me. What did they initially see before they found James dead that caused them to think suicide attempt? I still believe its possible that James's death wasnt ruled suicide because the weapon is missing. Ive stated this a few times before and get bashed all over the place. But I do firmly believe its a possibility. With another person dead, and Jayme missing, its safer to call it a homicide for now until all the facts are in. And its very possible to change that ruling later. jmho.

Wouldn't there be powder burns on the hands of someone who committed suicide by a gun? Perhaps they thought suicide at first because of a wound to the head.

 

[photographer4]

I know the whole suicide thing gets people worked up on here. But I agree with you. The 'advised of a possible suicide attempt', then a minute later 'man down, possible suicide', gets me. What did they initially see before they found James dead that caused them to think suicide attempt? I still believe its possible that James's death wasnt ruled suicide because the weapon is missing. Ive stated this a few times before and get bashed all over the place. But I do firmly believe its a possibility. With another person dead, and Jayme missing, its safer to call it a homicide for now until all the facts are in. And its very possible to change that ruling later. jmho.

Suicide "attempt" - now that I think of that... it makes me think perhaps he wasn't dead when they got there. I doubt he opened the door / spoke to anyone, but attempt indicates life. Apparent suicide would indicate he died by his own hand. Attempt indicates he tried to kill himself... You'd think if the door was "riddled with bullets" as we've seen in some media reports, they'd have noticed that pretty quickly and not thought suicide attempt at first... right? Hm...

 

[photographer4]

I know the whole suicide thing gets people worked up on here. But I agree with you. The 'advised of a possible suicide attempt', then a minute later 'man down, possible suicide', gets me. What did they initially see before they found James dead that caused them to think suicide attempt? I still believe its possible that James's death wasnt ruled suicide because the weapon is missing. Ive stated this a few times before and get bashed all over the place. But I do firmly believe its a possibility. With another person dead, and Jayme missing, its safer to call it a homicide for now until all the facts are in. And its very possible to change that ruling later. jmho.

If James did attempt suicide, why would he do it there? At that time, in that spot? Hmm. Homicide is the ruling and I don't think its going to be changed....

 

[Bugurl747]

As far as the closed casket convo…

Perhaps the family chose a closed casket to simply keep any possible photos from being leaked into social media. One last move in giving dignity and respect to their loved ones.
After all, they would have had the opportunity for a private viewing beforehand.

Every aspect of this case has been scrutinized online which they have already said was painful. Imagine photos of their deceased loved ones showing up randomly. MOO

 

[KLM6]

Wouldn't there be powder burns on the hands of someone who committed suicide by a gun? Perhaps they thought suicide at first because of a wound to the head.

Do we know for sure there wasnt? Do we know for certain James never fired any weapon that night? If the sheriff finds it odd that no weapons were found in the home, I tend to think its possible that James or Denise did shoot a gun that night. Why else would LE find it odd at a homicide scene that theres no gun? All of James's known guns were found in the home. That doesnt rule out the possibility he had an unregistered gun, or that Denise owned a gun, or that at some point James had control of someone elses gun. moo.

 

[OhThatVictoria]

I'm really glad to see this. Especially the social media aspect. I think it would be ridiculously easy to miss some subtle point. Not because LE isn't doing their very best, but because they've had to sort through so much info.

JMVHO.

Tru

My mind still keeps kicking these facts around:

* First responding LE on the scene at the Closs house advises dispatch of "possible suicide attempt."

* Sheriff says the deaths of Denise and James Closs are ruled homicides, because both died of gunshot wounds and no gun was found on the scene. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was a bit strange the way the Sheriff worded it.

* Sheriff's Department says "this case is particularly interesting as there were no weapons found on scene."

By my reading, these facts -- taken together -- make me think there was something odd about the shootings -- something that at least seemed to suggest that if not for the lack of a gun being found at the scene, one of the deaths could be perceived as a suicide.

Even if I'm off on my analysis, these three facts are really bugging me; I think LE sees something strange about the shootings, but is keeping the info, understandably, close to the vest.

I questioned that as well and someone here explained to me that sometimes a body will be on top of the gun (roll over on it?). So if they don’t touch the body, they can run on assumptions?

 

[SausagePizza]

Can anybody think of any mistakes that LE has made?

 

[Damarna]

In the end it will be interesting to see exactly what was going on at the initial contract LE had at the Closs home. My gut tells me to not take things said as exactly what was observed. Meaning the officers are totally in the dark about what is/has occurred, there is sudden high anxiety when they arrive and realize something bad DID happen. I'm leaning towards things just being reported with so much emotion behind them...possibly ask that same offier now and s/he may explain things differently. IMO

 

[KLM6]

Can anybody think of any mistakes that LE has made?

From what we know, I personally feel they are doing everything they can, and know to do. I wish there was more pleading overall to anyone with any type of information to call the tipline, even if they feel it may not be important. I feel like people out there have instincts or gut feelings but wont really see the importance until later. Hindsight is everything. Otherwise, I do feel LE is doing their best.

 

[OhThatVictoria]

Sidebar: Growing up Roman Catholic, there were open casket funerals, unless the family did not wish it (usually due to the condition of the body). There was debate as to what age was appropriate for a child to view a corpse. Never mind “kiss Grandma good-bye” winces at the funeral home, my family took pictures of the corpses (I kid you not). When I told a friend that was a custom in WI (she’s from NY), she didn’t believe me. Then one Christmas I got a gift in the mail from her:
Wisconsin Death Trip - Wikipedia

 

[bizzle2]

Can anybody think of any mistakes that LE has made?

Them asking only for tips on a Challenger, and saying they wouldn't take tips for any other models. And now it sounds like they think it is possible the car was a different model. If you only ask for a specific model and ignore tips on cars that look alike but aren't the same model, then you really better make sure you are correct about the model of the vehicle.

But it's easy to play armchair quarterback. Overall, I have no reason to think that they've done anything to botch this case.

 

[OhThatVictoria]

Can anybody think of any mistakes that LE has made?

Too early to know that IMO. Should LE have noted a child’s presence in the household sooner, whether it was a suicide (or not)?
Did any of the LE agencies step on each other?
Should LE have been so stern on who media could “talk to”? (Evidently that mandate has been lifted because the family IS talking now).
Did the Sheriff’s re-election campaign collide with the investigation? (Bad timing, for sure but it might have helped him wins?!?).
It’s always easy to Monday morning quarterback.

 

[Irmese]

Does anyone know James's USUAL work schedule? I haven't seen any confirmation that he worked during the day as a normal routine. I know the sister said 60, 70, 80 hours a week. I've heard shift work mentioned. I looked on the Jennie-O website and it appears in Barron they have at least 1st and 2nd shift work.

I know that most people who do shift work very often don't come home and go straight to bed. In fact, I've known a lot of shift workers for whom midnight becomes more like 5pm on their clocks. Which is why I'm assuming there's a strong possibility that James would be awake between 12-1am.

I don't know about James' schedule, but I have worked shift work. That doesn't mean he necessarily switched from first to second, but it looks to me like if he worked 60-80 hrs per week, he was working doubles. And we don't know what sort of schedule it was, 8, 10 or 12 hour shifts. Often, 12 hour shifts have schedules like 3 days on, 4 days off, then 4 days on and three off. If he was working that much overtime, I imagine he would fall asleep anytime he sat still for a few minutes. If the killer knew their vehicles, he knew James was home. He may have not known James had guns, but I think he relied on the element of surprise and planned to ambush and kill both parents. HI doesn't make sense to me. Most burglars want to rob houses for money, not to kill people. They typically rob houses when no one is home. I think if it was HI gone wrong, the perp would have run after he realized he had killed James, not killed Denise and took Jayme. I do think it might have been more than one person, maybe with two very different ideas of what was going to happen that night.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I don't know about James' schedule, but I have worked shift work. That doesn't mean he necessarily switched from first to second, but it looks to me like if he worked 60-80 hrs per week, he was working doubles. And we don't know what sort of schedule it was, 8, 10 or 12 hour shifts. Often, 12 hour shifts have schedules like 3 days on, 4 days off, then 4 days on and three off. If he was working that much overtime, I imagine he would fall asleep anytime he sat still for a few minutes. If the killer knew their vehicles, he knew James was home. He may have not known James had guns, but I think he relied on the element of surprise and planned to ambush and kill both parents. HI doesn't make sense to me. Most burglars want to rob houses for money, not to kill people. They typically rob houses when no one is home. I think if it was HI gone wrong, the perp would have run after he realized he had killed James, not killed Denise and took Jayme. I do think it might have been more than one person, maybe with two very different ideas of what was going to happen that night.

Your post flags a niggling question I have had about their finances, and potential motive.

Why was James working 60-80 hours a week? I understand being a go-getter and wanting to provide and save for retirement, but that sounds like *alot* of hours for a turkey plant.

Just dwelling on this, as it really stands out for me. 60-80 hours a week is common place in certain professions, but generally not this type of role or industry.
Why the excessive hours?

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[FunkyMonkey]

I know the whole suicide thing gets people worked up on here. But I agree with you. The 'advised of a possible suicide attempt', then a minute later 'man down, possible suicide', gets me. What did they initially see before they found James dead that caused them to think suicide attempt? I still believe its possible that James's death wasnt ruled suicide because the weapon is missing. Ive stated this a few times before and get bashed all over the place. But I do firmly believe its a possibility. With another person dead, and Jayme missing, its safer to call it a homicide for now until all the facts are in. And its very possible to change that ruling later. jmho.

No bashing because thinking outside the box is important too. How would the door being kicked in fit with suicide though? I’m not following that aspect.

 

[photographer4]

Catholic Church actually requires a closed casket. If Denise was later cremated, I believe it's possible Denise family rented a casket for her body to receive the christian ritual.

https://rcav.org/uploadedFiles/Abou...Burials_in_the_Catholic_Church_May_2_2012.pdf

FUNERAL MASS:

The body of the deceased should be present in church for the Funeral Mass or “Mass of Christian Burial.”

The casket remains closed during the funeral. and should be covered with a white pall in remembrance of the baptismal garment. In addition to its liturgical significance, the pall serves a very practical purpose: it avoids ostentation, prevents possible embarrassment of the poor and emphasizes Christians’ equality before God.

A funeral held at a Catholic Church probably requires a closed casket, I'll agree with that since I've never seen an open casket inside a Catholic Funeral Mass. But... usually the bodies are held at funeral homes for a day or two before the funeral mass takes place. That is where friends and families come together to mourn the loss of loved ones. Its not uncommon for caskets to be open at funeral homes depending on the wishes of the deceased person and or his/her loved ones. They then close the casket and transport it to the Church for a funeral mass, which is typically a closed casket, then off to the cemetery etc....

 

[photographer4]

I was wasn't sure if it meant they canceled that service or if the took the phone off the hook at night. That might just come up as busy.

In this day and age, don't most people who have land lines just set them to silent when they're sleeping? There's gotta be a button or timer for that sort of thing, no? Man its been over 15 years since I had a landline... but I distinctly remember just muting it at night....

 

[SausagePizza]

thinking outside the box is important too.

I agree 100%