AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #26

[KLM6]

I know the current question is regarding "abduction" vs "endangered",
But the requirements for an Amber Alert include a "suspect" and/or "suspect vehicle" description. But as we know, theres no suspect, and the info on the vehicle is sketchy.

Therefore, "endangered" is really the only criteria leaving the AL open right now, so I suspect he is nervous talking about this topic. Lord knows we dont want that AL removed!

WI law only requires "endagered", Im not sure how USDOJ defines it.

 

[dub]

I keep wondering if they heard a gunshot on the 911 call. Why else would they send three LE to a 911 hang-up? Shots fired? Whoever made the 911 call had not been shot (yet) IMO Is that why suicide initial "observation" ?

From the start something has been bothering me about the timing of the 911 call, and last night I figured out what it was.

The neighbors said the shots they heard were "seconds" apart--I'd really like to know roughly how many seconds, but it sounded like they were very close together. If that was the case, I find it highly unlikely that Denise would have been able to access her phone and make a 911 call after James was shot, with the shooter already in the house.

I timed it and it took me about 8 seconds to unlock my phone and punch 911 into the keypad, and that is with the phone directly next to me, knowing what I was doing, and not reacting to an unfolding unexpected situation. So I would imagine it was at least double that in this situation.

What that suggests to me is that Denise was already in the process of accessing her phone to call 911 at the moment that James was shot--meaning that there was probably some kind of disturbance occurring at the house that both parents were aware of immediately prior to the shooting, rather than a sudden and completely unexpected kicking in of the door that initiated the whole scene.

This doesn't clarify a TON, but it does decrease the probability that this started as a robbery (which had previously been my #1 most likely scenario).

It also opens up the possibility that there was someone at the house known to the family, an argument ensued and they left to their car to get a gun. It should also be noted that whatever happened WAS either quick enough or something that was not initially perceived as life threatening that neither J or D had time or thought it necessary to get a gun of their own.

How Jayme plays into this I'm not exactly sure, but it's possible that if it played out this way the shooter killed the parents in a rage but was not prepared to kill a kid, so he took Jayme and got out of there in a panic thinking he would figure out what to do with her later.

I got off track there, but to the quoted post, if Denise did in fact make the call, I believe she was shot after dialing 911, but before the dispatcher picked up. Honestly with the timing of the 911 call and the short gap between shots, unless there was a full 15-20 seconds between shots, this is the only 911 call scenario that makes sense to me.

 

[JRW]

I keep wondering if they heard a gunshot on the 911 call. Why else would they send three LE to a 911 hang-up? Shots fired? Whoever made the 911 call had not been shot (yet) IMO Is that why suicide initial "observation" ?

I completely agree!! I don't feel like a 911 hang up call and no answer on callback, and someone yelling help on the call, then arriveing and seeing a body laying in the doorway would add to to an initial thought of Possible suicide... unless they assumed it was a murder/suicide situation. It still boggles my mind how that observation was the first one made... makes me want to hear the 911 call even more.

 

[Quill]

This looks like a webcam image to me, but she is also wearing the same clothing from this shot previously released. They're listed as "undated."

(source)

My guess is that the reason this photos looks so grainy and wavy is that it was taken on a phone and is a jpeg image. They are lossy files which lose data every time they are edited, cropped or sent.

 

[JRW]

I'm curious why Jayme's phone was charging in the kitchen.. I know many kids who have a cell phone also use them as an alarm clock to wake up in the morning. I'm curious if she had been using it at night when she was supposed to be sleeping and it was taken away and she had to leave it in the kitchen charging due to overuse or misuse?

 

[Jethro4WS]

There's been so many questions of cell phones and pings on here. This article gives a really good novice explanation.
What Your Cell Phone Can’t Tell the Police

The answer is ... Not likely in this case.

You would have to have at least one or more of these things:
1. Have the perps phone in LE possession
2. Have a suspect to issue a warrant to their carrier for records
3. Perp would have had to been allowing location services on a GPS capable phone with them. Registered to them.
4. #3 .... PLUS the perp placed a phone call or texted while on Closs property

They cannot just pull a log that lists everyone in that area in any given time frame. As we have no perp phone and no real suspects ... #3&4 together would be the most likely way to nail down someone as having been there during the commission of the crime.

If premeditated, I don't think most people about to commit a double homicide and kidnapping are going to have their location services on and make a call or text in the middle of it. It has happened that someone did so nearby before or after the crime but I think LE would have that information and been acting on it already if it showed anything.

When your phone pings a tower it sends its location as the data part of the ping - always. This happens many times an hour and even more if the phone is in motion. The phone companies absolutely have to know where the phone is otherwise it would be impossible to route a call to your phone. Think about it. When you make a call to someone that has a cell phone how do you think the call actually gets to who you are calling? It isn't magic. The phone companies keep an active list of where all the phones are.

You cannot turn this off on your phone. Turning off location services only prevents Apps from using location information and in no way affects sending of location to the phone companies. If it were true that turning off location services stopped the phone from sending location information to the phone companies you would never be able to receive a call, especially while you are driving, if you turned it off. So, if you have a phone and have location services turned off, do you still receive calls?

You do not need to have the phone in your possession for any of this.

There is no requirement to make a call or text for the phone company to get location information, as I said earlier your phone sends its location many times an hour and more frequently if the phone is moving. However, every time you make a call or receive a call or send a text (via SMS e.g. via the cellular network rather than, say, iMessage) or receive a text (SMS) or send or receive data via the cellular network (as opposed to WiFi) location information is sent.

You do not need to issue a warrant for a specific person to obtain records of all the phones that connected to a specific tower or even all the towers located within X number of miles of a specific location. I have posted this before, in the Missy Bevers case in Midlothian, Texas, law enforcement obtained a search warrant for a list of all phones that were connected to any tower that could be reached by a cell phone from the church in which she was murdered between the hours of 3 and 5 am. This ultimately turned out to be all towers 11 miles or less from the church or a circle 22 miles in diameter. Because phones some distance away from the furthest towers in this circle can reach those towers the area for collecting information about phones was even larger than the 22 mile diameter circle. Midlothian is not all that far from the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex and this warrant would ultimately return hundreds of thousands of phones (a conservative estimate would be about 400,000 phones).

Link to the warrant in the Missy Bevers case. Note that the first page of the warrant is blank - so change the 1 in the box (1 of 8) to 2 and press enter to start reading the warrant. (Really, read the warrant).

Tower Warrant 5-5-16

If they wanted the identity of who owned the phones or a billing address they wouldn't get that from this warrant as that would require a specific warrant or more likely an Administrative Subpoena issued by the FBI which avoids the whole warrant process since they are procuring business records that belong to the phone company and not the subscriber. But obtaining just phone identity - IMSI/IMEI/Phone Number - as well as location information is easy to obtain.

All of that said, if a phone is in "Airplane Mode" it won't connect to a tower and no location information can be sent. Same is true if the phone is off.

If law enforcement has a reasonable belief that a phone was somewhere within the area they will be able to obtain a warrant to get cell tower dumps for a period of time and get a list of all phones that had been connected to the tower. They truly can do this and I am sure they have.

 

[lonetraveler]

I’d agree it wasn’t location of the body. Why
Would someone shoot themselves / suicide in a front hall / front door area? I also believe it was the wound and blood spray / pooling around the body that led to officer advising of possible suicide.

.

 

[JRW]

Right?! Me too, but if cops kicked in the door, would they still have taken it?

I believe they would if there was blood splatter or bullet holes or any other evidence on the door

 

[FruitSnack]

I live in a small town in wi. my husband was out for the night one night last week. I was watching TV and heard something that sounded like gun shots (we live next to a shooting range, so I hear gun fire all day everyday) and the first thing I did was turn the scanner on my phone and listen. turns out it was some kid with fire works at 1am. but turning on the scanner was my first instinct, never thought of calling the police.
just a random thought

 

[holtzmann]

My guess is that the reason this photos looks so grainy and wavy is that it was taken on a phone and is a jpeg image. They are lossy files which lose data every time they are edited, cropped or sent.

That's a good point. That's probably the similarity to webcam pics that I'm seeing - I hadn't considered the probability that the "camera" is actually just a phone... silly oversight on my part.

 

[bellyup]

Thank you. I posted about 911 hang up response from LE from POV of big city where I live, and you are correct. Gunshots or Fireworks is an unfortunate refrain in my urban neighborhood. When we call 911 to report, we don't ever really know if LE has shown or not.

There are some areas in the US that unless you are reporting a murder in progress or active shooting ... they just can't respond or don't for hours. LE resources are slammed so thin that a 911 dispatch center becomes a triage. No immediate threat to life ? Go to the end of the line. I know at one point, even on immediate threat calls Detroit was averaging a 58 minute response time.

Whereas in small towns, many officers will show up for bats in living rooms imagined by elderly dementia patients. lol

 

[FruitSnack]

I'm curious why Jayme's phone was charging in the kitchen.. I know many kids who have a cell phone also use them as an alarm clock to wake up in the morning. I'm curious if she had been using it at night when she was supposed to be sleeping and it was taken away and she had to leave it in the kitchen charging due to overuse or misuse?

my kids aren't allowed electronics in their rooms. they are 11 and 14. they never been in trouble with them, just our family rule. I am sure I am not the only family with rules like that.
we have a charging station in the kitchen for phones, tablets and chromebooks

 

[Quill]

That's a good point. That's probably the similarity to webcam pics that I'm seeing - I hadn't considered the probability that the "camera" is actually just a phone... silly oversight on my part.

Not silly at all. Observation of small details is what we do here.

 

[Jax49]

Article from October, clarifying the door had been kicked in when LE arrived.

911 call log: Officers found door kicked in, parents' bodies, no Jayme

Deputies arrived within 4 minutes of the end of the 911 call and found the front door kicked in and the bodies of the parents. There was no sign of Jayme, who is not considered a suspect based on evidence found in the house.

bbm

 

[gipsypup]

That was my initial thought when reading the statement that LE kicked the door in... I also didn't understand the certainty that James answered the door... you don't answer a door that is being kicked in you usually move away from it or try to further baracade it In my opinion

Right?! Me too, but if cops kicked in the door, would they still have taken it?

Even if LE kicked it in maybe they are looking for some kind of DNA/CLUES on it.
The way LE says "individual answered the door" and "door kicked in" sounds almost like it happened simultaneously. Like James was at the door , but didn't open it and LE needed to kick it in? JMO

 

[bellyup]

I'm curious why Jayme's phone was charging in the kitchen.. I know many kids who have a cell phone also use them as an alarm clock to wake up in the morning. I'm curious if she had been using it at night when she was supposed to be sleeping and it was taken away and she had to leave it in the kitchen charging due to overuse or misuse?

As a parent ; I'd say this is very very likely.

In fact I've used this method of punishment recently (phone in the kitchen) and this case has me questioning if it's a wise idea. I wonder if Jayme had her phone if a 911 call could have been made sooner. I'm not sure it would have saved Denise or James but it could have saved Jayme. I also talked to my kids about if they were ever to hear gun shots in our house to get out a window as quickly as possible. Even if you have to break a leg jumping and hide behind a shrub. Chances of a perp looking for you there are far slimmer than looking in a closet or bathroom.

 

[lonetraveler]

That was my initial thought when reading the statement that LE kicked the door in... I also didn't understand the certainty that James answered the door... you don't answer a door that is being kicked in you usually move away from it or try to further baracade it In my opinion

Just my 2 cents worth here but my interpretation is that LE meant that James was in the process of answering the door. JMO

 

[Maybelline]

I think they need to look into anyone that has ever been to the Closs home as well. Periferally, like odd job doers, Jack of all trade types, who are on the fringe of society, and may have adiction problems, or trouble with the law. Could be someone the family tried to help, by giving them work. Ie remodel, repair,landscaping etc.
I have a strong sway toward this theory, Imo.
My mind keeps coming back to this.

I agree. Even something that seems as harmless as selling items in the name of a charity or fundraiser. Not sure if that would be likely to happen in an area like that but if someone used the sale as an excuse to drop something off and get a lay of the land type of thing. Sometimes people invite the person selling into their house while they go get a check or cash. Just s thought.

 

[Rubiconbob]

From the start something has been bothering me about the timing of the 911 call, and last night I figured out what it was.

The neighbors said the shots they heard were "seconds" apart--I'd really like to know roughly how many seconds, but it sounded like they were very close together. If that was the case, I find it highly unlikely that Denise would have been able to access her phone and make a 911 call after James was shot, with the shooter already in the house.

I timed it and it took me about 8 seconds to unlock my phone and punch 911 into the keypad, and that is with the phone directly next to me, knowing what I was doing, and not reacting to an unfolding unexpected situation. So I would imagine it was at least double that in this situation.

What that suggests to me is that Denise was already in the process of accessing her phone to call 911 at the moment that James was shot--meaning that there was probably some kind of disturbance occurring at the house that both parents were aware of immediately prior to the shooting, rather than a sudden and completely unexpected kicking in of the door that initiated the whole scene.

This doesn't clarify a TON, but it does decrease the probability that this started as a robbery (which had previously been my #1 most likely scenario).

It also opens up the possibility that there was someone at the house known to the family, an argument ensued and they left to their car to get a gun. It should also be noted that whatever happened WAS either quick enough or something that was not initially perceived as life threatening that neither J or D had time or thought it necessary to get a gun of their own.

How Jayme plays into this I'm not exactly sure, but it's possible that if it played out this way the shooter killed the parents in a rage but was not prepared to kill a kid, so he took Jayme and got out of there in a panic thinking he would figure out what to do with her later.

I got off track there, but to the quoted post, if Denise did in fact make the call, I believe she was shot after dialing 911, but before the dispatcher picked up. Honestly with the timing of the 911 call and the short gap between shots, unless there was a full 15-20 seconds between shots, this is the only 911 call scenario that makes sense to me.

Good point ...That’s always hurt my head also. 2 shots. Seconds apart and the second shot is louder ... what ... so first shot gun pointed in house or 1 step in house. 2nd is outside house 1 step. As if Denise trying to move towards gunman...

I could see both going towards door first drops James. While Denise dials 911 moves towards door boom second shot.. causing phone to be tossed as call goes through ?? Denise bolts injured to bathroom..

Or jayme dials 911 as perp shoots maybe she drops phone as she bolts out of house...

Truly dunno.., but think your right. 2 shots 1/2 in succession.. if those 2 are it... that’s odd.. guessing they’ve known sense 24 hours in if only 2 shots

 

[Maybelline]

As a parent ; I'd say this is very very likely.

In fact I've used this method of punishment recently (phone in the kitchen) and this case has me questioning if it's a wise idea. I wonder if Jayme had her phone if a 911 call could have been made sooner. I'm not sure it would have saved Denise or James but it could have saved Jayme. I also talked to my kids about if they were ever to hear gun shots in our house to get out a window as quickly as possible. Even if you have to break a leg jumping and hide behind a shrub. Chances of a perp looking for you there are far slimmer than looking in a closet or bathroom.

Some parents I know want all cell phones in a certain spot by a certain time each night. That way there is no temptation to answer a text and if another child is allowed to use their phone later than your child stays up, they might get woke up if it is not silenced and they hardly ever want to silence it because then they might miss one of those oh so precious texts of calls from a friend.