WI - Teresa Marie Halbach, 25, Manitowoc, 31 Oct 2005

[Ang50]

This is a heinous crime - but don't blame the Innocence Project, and the DNA in the first case shouldn't be questioned unless you're willing to question the DNA in this case.

The Innocence Project faces a huge uphill battle anytime they are looking at someone for exoneration, and the presumption when someone is already in prison is that they are GUILTY until proven innocent. While there's no question that he's a criminal, a felon, and a creep based on all the other stuff, that doesn't mean he raped a woman on a beach.

With DNA - criticize the outcome with the pubic hair if you want, but then don't think the DNA tests with TH are conclusive, and decide that SA is guilty on that basis.

As far as the panel goes - I will have to report back to you next week. It is unforunate that the momentum the wrongful conviction movement had with Avery. It will cast a very long shadow - and will certainly change the tone of the symposium next week.

 

[petra]

This is a heinous crime - but don't blame the Innocence Project, and the DNA in the first case shouldn't be questioned unless you're willing to question the DNA in this case.

The Innocence Project faces a huge uphill battle anytime they are looking at someone for exoneration, and the presumption when someone is already in prison is that they are GUILTY until proven innocent. While there's no question that he's a criminal, a felon, and a creep based on all the other stuff, that doesn't mean he raped a woman on a beach.

With DNA - criticize the outcome with the pubic hair if you want, but then don't think the DNA tests with TH are conclusive, and decide that SA is guilty on that basis.

As far as the panel goes - I will have to report back to you next week. It is unforunate that the momentum the wrongful conviction movement had with Avery. It will cast a very long shadow - and will certainly change the tone of the symposium next week.

Not Blaming Innocence Project at all..Avery might not have been the rapist on the beach..dunno, really don't care right now.

But he is a murdering monster....and a not so bright psycopath.

IMO

 

[fran]

ANG50:

I do not blame the innocence project for this crime. I think they do good work. Anyone who's behind bars and is really innocent, I hope they get exonerated. Someone has to stick up for these guys.

The only reason I said that about the first case dna, is I'm wondering about the chain-of-custody for the evidence. Could it have been mixed up with another case? I don't know because I don't know that much about it. Otherwise, I'm a firm believer in dna.

It's unfortunate that it's come to this. To be honest, I thought he was being framed. I'm still not completely convinced it's him. I've followed enough trials to know that you have to see all the evidence before you can make a truly honest assessment. I haven't seen or heard all the evidence, just bits and pieces.

JMHO
fran

PS......but it doesn't look too promising for this suspect from what I have seen....especially if his blood is located in her vehicle........fran

 

[adit]

I've also seen hair evidence shown to be incorrect, scientific or not those scientists make mistakes. I believe it's Texas that an entire lab is under investigation for faulty dna results that are responsible for many convictions and has been closed down. Now logically we don't know how that hair got there per se, we assume it came from the rapist but was there only one offender? There could be another explanation and in light of this it should be re-investigated. I've actually read quite a few recent developements and discoveries that are going on with dna testing because new scientific discoveries fascinate me, for instance one recent article I just read where a twin had such a unique dna that it did not match it's own mother, the other dies in utero and this is still being studied because it isn't the first case documented. Look at how many believe FBI profiling and lie detector results and they've proven to be as accurate as a psychic.

I realize that scientists make mistakes as well, however, the probablility of DNA evidence being wrong is much less than the probablility of witness/victim ID being wrong. Nothing is 100%. However, as I asked, if you were on trial and DNA evidence conflicted with witness ID, which would you rather the jury believe? I think most people would go with DNA. There was other evidence that didn't fit with him being the perp either, such as skin under the victim's nails. I wonder, does anyone know if the man that was already in jail for sexual assault that they linked to the rape through DNA was ever tried for it? Or if he admitted to it once they got the DNA evidence against him?

 

[Researcher]

Thanks, I haven't seen a pic so your opinion imo is important. It's gotta be hell on that woman 18 years later she's convinced was wrong and wouldn't know one way or the other by now. From CSI a famous quote comes to mind; physical evidence doesn't lie, there's no prejudice or emotion. However it's possible the evidence was manipulated, an entire exoneration from one piece of hair? I'd be more convinced if we were looking at semen or blood rather than hair. What if these two knew each other or had come in contact somehow back then and was the victim ever unconscious at any point from the attack? Possibly another sexual offender happened on the victim after the original attack?

Link to Gregory A. Allen photo:
http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/sep03/allenbig091103.jpg
Links to Steven A. Avery photos:
http://www.jsonline.com/multimedia/graphic.asp?graphic=
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/051110/480/wxs10411102210

 

[concernedperson]

Link to Gregory A. Allen photo:
http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/sep03/allenbig091103.jpg
Links to Steven A. Avery photos:
http://www.jsonline.com/multimedia/graphic.asp?graphic=
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/051110/480/wxs10411102210

I don't know the circumstances of the attack....whether it was at night etc. But the two guys have broad faces and receding hairlines and appear to be beefy.

 

[hoppyfrog]

Hoppyfrog,

Big Thanks for all the updates on the press conferences! :clap:
Since I am so far from Wisconsin it really helps me keep up with the facts.

You're very welcome.

Hoppy

 

[hoppyfrog]

Hoppy:
Thank you so much for the info. I'm just sick over this. I was sure it couldn't be him....good grief! What was he thinking?

You're welcome. And I think it's quite clear he wasn't *thinking* at all.

Hoppy

 

[Researcher]

How ironic is this?! On 11/1, one day after Teresa Halbach's disappearance, "The Avery Bill" was signed in WI. It is the culmination of efforts following Avery's wrongful conviction (via the Wisconsin Innocence Project) and changes the way suspected criminals are questioned and prosecuted.

Thankfully, they have at least seen fit to change the name of the bill who's lead author, Rep. Mark Gundrum, now says the bill will be called "the criminal justice reforms".
http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/2005/11/11/local/iq_3760371.txt

 

[concernedperson]

I would never hurt nobody..........

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/11/missing.woman.ap/index.html

 

[PrayersForMaura]

My apologies. Trying to listen and type at the same time...and hurriedly!

Edited the post.

Hoppy

I eventually figured it, lol :banghead:
I was reading really fast today at work...

Anway this is terrible

thanks so much for all of your updates today.
I really appreciate your hard work.
It's so sad the way this turned out

 

[blueclouds]

I would never hurt nobody..........

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/11/missing.woman.ap/index.html

I'm assuming by this redneck comment then that He WOULD hurt somebody

If he would never hurt "nobody" then he WOULD hurt "somebody". :bang:

 

[concernedperson]

I'm assuming by this redneck comment then that He WOULD hurt somebody

If he would never hurt "nobody" then he WOULD hurt "somebody". :bang:

This is somebody who crossed his path. He considered it a nobody. Yes, it is a redneck comment. But you get what it is.....another criminal with intent.

 

[Researcher]

:liar:

I would never hurt nobody..........:liar:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/11/missing.woman.ap/index.html

:liar: :liar: :liar: :liar:

 

[hoppyfrog]

Anway this is terrible

thanks so much for all of your updates today.
I really appreciate your hard work.
It's so sad the way this turned out

No problem. And yes, it's incredibly sad.

Hoppy

 

[strach304]

I realize that scientists make mistakes as well, however, the probablility of DNA evidence being wrong is much less than the probablility of witness/victim ID being wrong. Nothing is 100%. However, as I asked, if you were on trial and DNA evidence conflicted with witness ID, which would you rather the jury believe? I think most people would go with DNA. There was other evidence that didn't fit with him being the perp either, such as skin under the victim's nails. I wonder, does anyone know if the man that was already in jail for sexual assault that they linked to the rape through DNA was ever tried for it? Or if he admitted to it once they got the DNA evidence against him?[/QUOTE

Hi, sorry I'm just getting back but of course I believe dna is much more reliable than an eye witness most of the time but in light of the circumstances of this case why not go back and re-investigate since obviously there were many mistakes made in that case. I didn't know anything about it but would like to back track and see what evidence the prosecutor used in that trial such as blood, semen etc. You can bet the dna will be gone over with a fine tooth comb from both sides this time as well, it's only fair the dna evidence be questioned now as well but there seems like they have a lot more than just dna in this case such as the fact he was the last one to see her and her car, car keys, burnt bones and teeth, not yet verified cell phone and other personal items belonging to Teresa that were found in his house or on the property.

The thing I don't get with this guy is this crime was so heinous it's similar to when convicted rapists and child molesters are released from prison reoffend and kill the victims to keep from getting caught. If he wasn't guilty of the rape he was exonerated for and the other offenses were his only crimes then where did this come from and why, especially after all these years?

 

[strach304]

Researcher and Hoppyfrog, thanks so much for the updates and pics
Really appreciate it! Prayers to Teresa and her family. I feel so damn bad for them.

 

[lostfaith]

I am now "eating my socks", and it is leaving a very bad taste.

I am stunned. I know criminals are usually not smart, but this takes the cake. Everything is pointing to him, I just keep getting that nagging thought that it is just "too clearly" pointing to him.

I feel so badly for Theresa's family and also Steve Avery's children. I will never forget his daughter, how happy she looked to have her Father out of prison. I also can not imagine what the victim of the earlier rape is feeling. And what a total slap in the face to the inocence project.

I just wanna beat the tar out of that man!

 

[adit]

I realize that scientists make mistakes as well, however, the probablility of DNA evidence being wrong is much less than the probablility of witness/victim ID being wrong. Nothing is 100%. However, as I asked, if you were on trial and DNA evidence conflicted with witness ID, which would you rather the jury believe? I think most people would go with DNA. There was other evidence that didn't fit with him being the perp either, such as skin under the victim's nails. I wonder, does anyone know if the man that was already in jail for sexual assault that they linked to the rape through DNA was ever tried for it? Or if he admitted to it once they got the DNA evidence against him?[/QUOTE

Hi, sorry I'm just getting back but of course I believe dna is much more reliable than an eye witness most of the time but in light of the circumstances of this case why not go back and re-investigate since obviously there were many mistakes made in that case. I didn't know anything about it but would like to back track and see what evidence the prosecutor used in that trial such as blood, semen etc. You can bet the dna will be gone over with a fine tooth comb from both sides this time as well, it's only fair the dna evidence be questioned now as well but there seems like they have a lot more than just dna in this case such as the fact he was the last one to see her and her car, car keys, burnt bones and teeth, not yet verified cell phone and other personal items belonging to Teresa that were found in his house or on the property.

The thing I don't get with this guy is this crime was so heinous it's similar to when convicted rapists and child molesters are released from prison reoffend and kill the victims to keep from getting caught. If he wasn't guilty of the rape he was exonerated for and the other offenses were his only crimes then where did this come from and why, especially after all these years?

Strach - If you look at the pictures of the two men, there are definitely similarities. Also, when the rape happened there are reports that suggest LE had Allen under surveillance because they thought he was likely to commit a sexual assault, yet they never even put him in the line-up for Penny to identify. Had they, there might have been a different outcome to her ID. I'm still not clear on whether Allen was ever tried for or admitted to the actual rape since he was already in jail for 60 years. There were also 16 people that verified Avery's alibi, a lot were family and friends, but there were also clerks at a store and receipts to corroborate his whereabouts.
Here is a link where you can read about it: http://www.truthinjustice.org/avery.htm

I know it seems weird that having not committed that crime that this would be his next act of violence, but maybe he decided that he was better off in jail or that he would get credit for time already served. Hell, maybe he really did think they wouldn't suspect him. Perhaps Teresa made a remark about the bill they were signing (that was supposed to be named after him) the next day and all the anger he had about being wrongly imprisoned for 18 years (actually it should only be 12 years since he would have served 6 for the other offense) and the stress he's been under since he's gotten out just caused him to snap. I agree it makes you want to question the validity of the Innocence Project, but it seems they did their homework and he wasn't let out of jail under false pretenses.

 

[Bobbisangel]

1. Reports indicate Steven was renting a trailer near the salvage yard:
http://www.aninchfrommurder.com/blog/archives/2005/11/attorney_office.php
2. Do you have a link re his getting kicked out of family's home?
3. I'm wondering if perp(s) were drunk and that's why the crime scene(s) were so sloppy...stupid, as in stupid drunk.
4. Given family's legal histories, might be possible at least a few of them were involved.
(All IMHO, purely speculation.)

I'll look for the link where it said that he wasn't living on the property..something about living in a little place not much bigger than a cell and then I read that he had moved in with his father the last couple days. It probably doesn't matter much now that they have matched his DNA with blood in Teresa's car and on her car keys.

I just can't stop thinking of the horror that poor girl went through before her death. Who knows what all was done to her. I think it is nearly the worst I've heard of lately. Any murder is horrible...don't get me wrong...but with the reports of blood all over the property it makes me think that she was trying to get away from him and a horrible blood bath followed. This guy doesn't have a chance in hell of getting off on this murder. DNA might have cleared him in the rape case but DNA is going to hang him in this case. I feel so bad for Teresa's family because they are the ones who will have to live with this horror.