Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion

[Peaceful]

I think the new evidence should cause a re-evaluation. But the Z family is arguing against suicide by asserting the relationship was essentially over. Yet that could also be argued as a reason for suicide.

Lots to find out yet. I wish there was some way to get a new investigation into the child’s death. If the investigation conclusions are so flawed in regard to RZ, why should they be trusted in regard to the child. His life mattered too.

I would love to see Max's case reinvestigated as well. I have many unanswered questions.

 

[Harmony 2]

Hi Everyone,

There is a huge gap of time between when I first posted on this case and when I started following it again.

During that time it appears there were many posts made that might have violated our terms of service.

I'm not as worried about what was said in the past, however, if you do come across a post, no matter how old, and you feel it violates our rules or is otherwise inappropriate please do not hesitate to alert on the post so it can be removed.

It is from here on out I am concerned with.

The fact that Websleuths is going against Law Enforcement's finding of suicide is a big thing for us. Websleuths management and members are not naive enough to think law enforcement is correct all the time. Not at all but in this case, law enforcement agencies are adamant that Rebecca killed herself.

When Keith Greer filed the lawsuit on behalf of Rebecca's family, he included Max's mom Dina claiming Dina was involved in Rebecca's death. It was only when Greer received the hospital footage proving that Dina was at the hospital with her son Max that she was dropped from the lawsuit. Greer publicly apologized to Dina, and that left Adam.

Before we get to Adam, Dina did not kill Rebecca. There is nothing to suggest she had anything to do with any part of Rebecca's death. I know some of you feel that Rebecca blurting out "Dina will kill me" somehow speaks to Dina's guilt. It does not. She did not have a really good relationship with Dina. She was watching her son, and under her watch, Max had a deadly accident.

For Rebecca to blurt this out is normal IMO and indicates nothing about Dina personally.

If we are sitting here discussing things like Dina's involvement by suggesting she and Adam cooked this up there is nothing to suggest this whatsoever. Nothing.

Dina not only lost her only child but she had to suffer being publically accused of murder. She has been through enough.

One of our rules at Websleuths is you can't accuse people of murder that are not currently under suspicion. The last thing I want is for Websleuths to be one of the places on the Internet that still piles on Dina. There is nothing there. Could she have worked with Jonah and convinced Adam to kill Rebecca? There is no evidence to even hint at this. How do you prove a negative? We have no idea who she talked with and what was said, but nothing has come out to slightly hint that this is a probable scenario. The talks could have happened, but that is just throwing this idea out there with nothing to back it up.

Let's talk about Jonah. Again, nothing to suggest he asked his brother to do anything. Could he have set Adam up to this? No evidence suggests this, but it is possible. Like with Dina what do we have as evidence to even suggest this is even slightly a possibility?

My friends, I have a conundrum here. I can certainly see why people might think Jonah might be involved in the killing through his brother. Then again, law enforcement, the agencies Websleuths looks to for guidance in cases, flat out say this is not a murder.

What should Websleuths allow as far as the discussions?

How about a compromise of sorts. Since this case is already turning our rules upside down let's agree that out of the two, Dina or Jonah, it would be Jonah, who would be the one to discuss the murder with Adam IF THAT IS WHAT HE DID.

Let's leave Dina out of this OK? Logically, she is not only the least likely to be involved in any way she has, as I said before, been through enough. We do not need to discuss anything about her other than if you find something solid that connects her to Rebecca's death.

Jonah, again, nothing to suggest he did anything wrong but he is the closest to his brother plus is he lying about the phone call where he left the message to Rebecca to protect his brother? Keith Greer thinks so.


Jonah said Max was not doing well at all when he called and left the message. Greer says that is not true. At the time there were signs of Max possibly doing a bit better. Who is telling the truth? It could be that Max was looking better, but Jonah very well might have left a negative message for Rebecca anyway.

As long as you do not claim as a fact that Jonah is involved in the killing of Rebecca, we will allow limited discussion. As long as you speculate and offer your opinion on what possibly might have happened and as long as you keep your opinions in the realm of reality OK.

I reserve the right to change my mind on this decision.

My apologies for the long post. As I said, this is new ground we are covering.

Thank you for your patience.
Tricia

Bumping up Tricia's post giving the parameters for posting. Several posts not in compliance with those parameters have been removed.

In addition, posting information outside the periphery of the case players such as a boyfriend's daughter, a new wife and her children, etc. is not allowed. Posting screenshots or comments from their social media is a TOS violation.

Moderators and Tricia are busy moderating the whole board and we can't sit here looking at every single post so if you see questionable posts or TOS violations please alert on the posts.

 

[Betty P]

If JS was dating another woman, what reason would there be for RZ to stay around? The only reason I can think of, from her point of view,is she needed time to get a job and a means of support. JS was under no legal obligation to give her any help.

From JS point of view, she could help out with the kids till she moved on. Maybe that’s the arrangement they had, while he pursued his now wife. But the ...his older kids had left. The youngest was badly injured.

What reason was there for RZ to be there anymore?

Not sure how the confluence of being discarded, having to restart your entire life, and a tragedy involovling a child could not provide a reason for suicide.

That’s not proof she wasn’t murdered. Just seems an undeniably chaotic and cruel time in RZ’s life. Denying it is counterproductive and does not serve the case well, in my opinion....even if it is the general consensus here.

I'm not sure about this "new" narrative of JS having a new lover and his relationship with RZ at an end. Remember, RZ was still sharing a bedroom with JS. She was staying in the master bedroom, had been showering there just prior to the attack and murder. Her clothes were in the MB.

Jonah was staying at the Ronald McDonald House to be close to his son, but everything we've read shows that, prior to MS's accident, RZ and JS appeared to still be in a relationship. As much as some may want to push that narrative (and some have for a long time), she wasn't considered the live in nanny/housekeeper for JS. She was still sharing his life, his bed.

 

[stmarysmead]

But it’s the Z family attorneys who have asserted this narrative to argue that she WASNT suicidal. This is coming from the family attorneys.


“It should also be noted that the emotional bond between Jonah Shacknai and Rebecca hadalready deteriorated by the time she was murdered to the point where she was considering leaving him and he was already dating the woman he would eventually marry. (Greer Decl., Ex. I, Mary Zahau- Loehner Depo. at pgs. 62:24-63:24; Ex. G, Dina Shacknai Depo. at 154:20-155:22). This information, which tends to undermine the perception that Rebecca and Jonah were still madly in love and the injury to Max was therefore so painful Rebecca was compelled to end her life, was not shared with the Sheriffs Department or the Medical Examiner.“

 

[*Lash*]

My mistake Harmony 2, :wave: I apologize for the screenshot.

 

[Pi2016]

I think the new evidence should cause a re-evaluation. But the Z family is arguing against suicide by asserting the relationship was essentially over. Yet that could also be argued as a reason for suicide.

Lots to find out yet. I wish there was some way to get a new investigation into the child’s death. If the investigation conclusions are so flawed in regard to RZ, why should they be trusted in regard to the child. His life mattered too.

DS hired experts to re-investigate on her own and they concluded foul play, yet it wasn't enough for the investigation to be reopened. DS also believes RZ had nothing to do with it.

I've long said we're missing something here and I personally would like to see both reopened again.

 

[screecher]

DS hired experts to re-investigate on her own and they concluded foul play, yet it wasn't enough for the investigation to be reopened. DS also believes RZ had nothing to do with it.

I've long said we're missing something here and I personally would like to see both reopened again.

DR also brought a WDS against Maxie's Dad, JS.

And that went sideways in a nanosecond from the very beginning.

She was strongly admonished by the judge in that case because she refused to participate in a timely legal manner.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[stmarysmead]

I'm not sure about this "new" narrative of JS having a new lover and his relationship with RZ at an end. Remember, RZ was still sharing a bedroom with JS. She was staying in the master bedroom, had been showering there just prior to the attack and murder. Her clothes were in the MB.

Jonah was staying at the Ronald McDonald House to be close to his son, but everything we've read shows that, prior to MS's accident, RZ and JS appeared to still be in a relationship. As much as some may want to push that narrative (and some have for a long time), she wasn't considered the live in nanny/housekeeper for JS. She was still sharing his life, his bed.

But it’s her family lawyers who are arguing that the relationship had deteriorated so significantly
Please read that quote from the summary judgement. It’s their argument that the deteriorated relationship provide some proof she wouldn’t kill herself.

My point is that for many women...sharing a bed...caring for the home and children...of a man who was openly dating his next wife...and experiencing a horrific accident of a child I cared for...could also be emotionally devastating.

Does it insult RZ to state the obvious? It shouldn’t. Denying it seems a real stretch.

 

[screecher]

" Was Shacknai in love with Becky?

Mary hesitates.

“I don’t know. I couldn’t read [them]. I mean, were they affectionate with each other? No, not really. Not in front of us. If I saw them, I probably wouldn’t get that impression. Becky told me that she did love him but that she was disappointed in a lot of ways because he wouldn’t…she was disappointed in his [teenaged] kids, [how] they were allowed to be openly rude to her. Those other two children didn’t want her, period. They resented her. And Jonah would not defend her [against them], stop that. Not really. Not by my impression.”

By this summer, it was coming to a crunch for Rebecca.

“We talked about it; that if the teenaged kids’ behavior doesn’t improve she was considering telling Jonah at the end of this summer that she…needed to have some time to herself.

“I don’t know if she ended up telling him or not.”

And now her narrative has changed ??? :thinking:


And DR also has the same narrative regarding JS and his cheating??? :thinking:

I call BS

 

[Imp]

If JS was dating another woman, what reason would there be for RZ to stay around? The only reason I can think of, from her point of view,is she needed time to get a job and a means of support. JS was under no legal obligation to give her any help.

From JS point of view, she could help out with the kids till she moved on. Maybe that’s the arrangement they had, while he pursued his now wife. But the ...his older kids had left. The youngest was badly injured.

What reason was there for RZ to be there anymore?

Not sure how the confluence of being discarded, having to restart your entire life, and a tragedy involovling a child could not provide a reason for suicide.

That’s not proof she wasn’t murdered. Just seems an undeniably chaotic and cruel time in RZ’s life. Denying it is counterproductive and does not serve the case well, in my opinion....even if it is the general consensus here.

Imo, the evidence suggests, in a myriad of ways (she was hogtied and sexually assaulted with a knife handle, for starters) that Rebecca was killed, therefore, creating a scenario in which she might've been suicidal doesn't make much sense.

 

[stmarysmead]

" Was Shacknai in love with Becky?

Mary hesitates.

“I don’t know. I couldn’t read [them]. I mean, were they affectionate with each other? No, not really. Not in front of us. If I saw them, I probably wouldn’t get that impression. Becky told me that she did love him but that she was disappointed in a lot of ways because he wouldn’t…she was disappointed in his [teenaged] kids, [how] they were allowed to be openly rude to her. Those other two children didn’t want her, period. They resented her. And Jonah would not defend her [against them], stop that. Not really. Not by my impression.”

By this summer, it was coming to a crunch for Rebecca.

“We talked about it; that if the teenaged kids’ behavior doesn’t improve she was considering telling Jonah at the end of this summer that she…needed to have some time to herself.

“I don’t know if she ended up telling him or not.”

And now her narrative has changed ??? :thinking:


And DR also has the same narrative regarding JS and his cheating??? :thinking:

I call BS

BS by the family lawyers?

 

[stmarysmead]

Imo, the evidence suggests, in a myriad of ways (she was hogtied and sexually assaulted with a knife handle, for starters) that Rebecca was killed, therefore, creating a scenario in which she might've been suicidal doesn't make much sense.

But we haven’t heard all the evidence yet. If I were a jury member, I would want to hear it all, therefore alternative scenarios would be not only sensible, but part of the process of determining the truth. And being in a cruel and chaotic relationship does not preclude one from being murdered.

 

[Pi2016]

DR also brought a WDS against Maxie's Dad, JS.

And that went sideways in a nanosecond from the very beginning.

She was strongly admonished by the judge in that case because she refused to participate in a timely legal manner.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

Interesting. I'd love to see those docs.

 

[Imp]

But we haven’t heard all the evidence yet. If I were a jury member, I would want to hear it all, therefore alternative scenarios would be not only sensible, but part of the process of determining the truth. And being in a cruel and chaotic relationship does not preclude one from being murdered.

"Cruel and chaotic" are your words, they don't appear in anything I've read or heard so far. We don't know what the relationship was between RZ and JS, so I think we should all be careful not to characterize their relationship based on our own opinions and personal experiences.

 

[Imp]

But we haven’t heard all the evidence yet. If I were a jury member, I would want to hear it all, therefore alternative scenarios would be not only sensible, but part of the process of determining the truth. And being in a cruel and chaotic relationship does not preclude one from being murdered.

In addition, outside opinions about the RZ/JS relationship aren't evidence, they go to motive. Trying to establish motive is notoriously difficult. Imo, Greer has sufficient actual forensic evidence to prove murder.

 

[stmarysmead]

"Cruel and chaotic" are your words, they don't appear in anything I've read or heard so far. We don't know what the relationship was between RZ and JS, so I think we should all be careful not to characterize their relationship based on our own opinions and personal experiences.

OK. The Z attorney in the summary judgement says they were in a “deteriorated” relationship. She was sleeping in the same bed and caring for the children of a man dating someone new. That’s what the summary judgement says.This does NOT demean RZ. And if her family has credible honest legal representation, then why should it not be accepted as fact. A lot of the narrative that was gospel for years is turning out to be inaccurate...but at the same time, compelling new evidence has been uncovered.

Lots to learn yet.

 

[Betty P]

But it’s her family lawyers who are arguing that the relationship had deteriorated so significantly
Please read that quote from the summary judgement. It’s their argument that the deteriorated relationship provide some proof she wouldn’t kill herself.

My point is that for many women...sharing a bed...caring for the home and children...of a man who was openly dating his next wife...and experiencing a horrific accident of a child I cared for...could also be emotionally devastating.

Does it insult RZ to state the obvious? It shouldn’t. Denying it seems a real stretch.

I understand what you're saying, what the defense team is saying. There's no doubt their relationship was ending. But it didn't seem to be ending in a way that was so demeaning and humiliating to RZ that it would have put her in a suicidal state of mind. That's the distinction I'm trying to make here. She was a strong person capable of moving on and continuing her life in a constructive way.

I think there may be people in JS's family and personal network who are trying to sell a more negative view of their relationship and her state of mind. As always, it's a subtle push to degrade and "gaslight" RZ, to make her seem more responsible for her own death.

 

[Imp]

OK. The Z attorney in the summary judgement says they were in a “deteriorated” relationship. She was sleeping in the same bed and caring for the children of a man dating someone new. That’s what the summary judgement says.This does NOT demean RZ. And if her family has credible honest legal representation, then why should it not be accepted as fact. A lot of the narrative that was gospel for years is turning out to be inaccurate...but at the same time, compelling new evidence has been uncovered.

Lots to learn yet.

I'm not arguing with the characterization of the relationship as "deteriorated" from someone actually involved with the WDS.

 

[stmarysmead]

I understand what you're saying, what the defense team is saying. There's no doubt their relationship was ending. But it didn't seem to be ending in a way that was so demeaning and humiliating to RZ that it would have put her in a suicidal state of mind. That's the distinction I'm trying to make here. She was a strong person capable of moving on and continuing her life in a constructive way.

I think there may be people in JS's family and personal network who are trying to sell a more negative view of their relationship and her state of mind. As always, it's a subtle push to degrade and "gaslight" RZ, to make her seem more responsible for her own death.

Thank you for this sensible explanation. My first reaction to this information was actually that...Jonah’s PR team had wanted it hidden. Yes, to me, it seemed cruel....my word only...no official definition.

 

[Tricia]

Hey Everyone,

Thank you for the great information and opinions you are offering.

Please remember the only one who is being accused based on the evidence is Adam.

Let's not accuse anyone else. Until there is evidence suggesting otherwise our focus is on the civil trial and Adam.

Good News. New York Times bestselling author, true crime writer, and former investigative reporter Caitlin Rother ( http://www.caitlinrother.com/ ) will be calling in at the end of each week to give us a wrapup as to what happened in court from her eyewitness perspective.

Yes, I will still keep asking (bugging) Keith Greer for updates as well and I'm certain when he has the time he will gladly do a quick interview

It's all good.

Thanks again everyone.
Tricia