2010.09.27 - Issues with JVM discussing bombshell developments in Haleigh Case

[oceanblueeyes]

Whether the news is old or new...it is still apart of this case...because the news is old, it doesn't exist anymore or doesn't count? WOW....then you should throw that alibi out the window....that's old too.

But you're right, the case does evolve as new information come to light in an ongoing investigation......that's why there was a drug bust to get these people behind bars...Misty, Tommy, and RON. LE received information that these people were dealing in illegal narcotics...the case kept evolving.....Ron got a plea deal...for providing information concerning his dead daughter....information that they needed to help the case. I can't wait to see what happens when this case comes full circle....the plea deal should tell you that Ron was apart of the circle. He had information that could help. Had he not been....he wouldn't have had anything to add to this their case..nothing more than what he said in the beginning....As we know in the beginning Ron stopped talking to LE, although they still had questions for him....That's why I believe that LE have always known Ron had valuable information pertaining to this case, for whatever reason Ron didn't want to tell it, and LE knew he wasn't going to tell it, and it took for Ron to be put in a situation where he had no other choice but to tell it.

When all is said and done....I guarantee you see more than Misty and Tommy go down for taking part in this crime....

It may not count Suspicious1. If they have uncovered evidence that makes what they first thought incorrect then of course that would be eliminated and replaced with what they have been able to determine after that time in the ongoing investigation. Investigations are always a process of elimination and gaining new information. What they may have thought at first may change completely. This is just plain commonsense to me. No case stays the same as when it is first unfolding. Things they thought at first they will rule them out later on as more evidence becomes known to them. That is just SOP.

I really don't think that was the purpose to get "these people" behind bars. If that were the case they wouldn't have included the other two. All 5 were guilty on the drug charges and that is why they were arrested, charged and guilty.

I don't guarantee anything about a case where the police have not divulged the evidence. I can only speculate and certain not say I guarantee anything but imoo if further arrests are made beyond Misty and Tommy it may be Joe Overstreet.

DA's don't give sweetheart deals like they did Ron if they think they are involved in an unsolved homicide imo.

IMO

 

[Searchfortruth]

Whether the news is old or new...it is still apart of this case...because the news is old, it doesn't exist anymore or doesn't count? WOW....then you should throw that alibi out the window....that's old too.

But you're right, the case does evolve as new information come to light in an ongoing investigation......that's why there was a drug bust to get these people behind bars...Misty, Tommy, and RON. LE received information that these people were dealing in illegal narcotics...the case kept evolving.....Ron got a plea deal...for providing information concerning his dead daughter....information that they needed to help the case. I can't wait to see what happens when this case comes full circle....the plea deal should tell you that Ron was apart of the circle. He had information that could help. Had he not been....he wouldn't have had anything to add to this their case..nothing more than what he said in the beginning....As we know in the beginning Ron stopped talking to LE, although they still had questions for him....That's why I believe that LE have always known Ron had valuable information pertaining to this case, for whatever reason Ron didn't want to tell it, and LE knew he wasn't going to tell it, and it took for Ron to be put in a situation where he had no other choice but to tell it.When all is said and done....I guarantee you see more than Misty and Tommy go down for taking part in this crime....

BBM.

ITA, the drug bust proves that LE does not view Ron as just the grieving father. Ron's plea deal confirms (at least to me) that he has substantial knowledge. Plea deals don't come cheap. I think anyone can conclude that Ron has had this valuable information for some time now, and only gave it up when he needed to save himself. That (and the fact that he married Misty) tells me all I need to know about Ron's involvement.

 

[suspicious1]

So was he able to get in contact with her anytime after 8:30 pm?

Did he specifically want to talk to Tommy or just called the Croslin home when he couldn't get Misty to answer her phone?

Right. In a lot of cases TOD is not known exactly. They didn't know the TOD for Laci and Conner either so LE built the circumstantial case based on the time lines they did have and put it together.

IMO

Right. So LE has to build a circumstantial case based on time lines that they have and put it together...

In this case the time lines have been an issue....and Ron's "new" information (plea deal) is helping with the time line NOW....if Ron was giving them old information...it should've already been apart of the time line, KWIM? What more could he have added, if he told them all he knew back in 2009?

JMo of couse

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Right. So LE has to build a circumstantial case based on time lines that they have and put it together...

In this case the time lines have been an issue....and Ron's "new" information (plea deal) is helping with the time line NOW....if Ron was giving them old information...it should've already been apart of the time line, KWIM? What more could he have added, if he told them all he knew back in 2009?

JMo of couse

All they had in Laci's case was her mother had talked to her at 8:30 the night before she was reported "missing" the next afternoon. There was about a 20 hour gap before she was reported missing.

I dont see that Ron had to have new information. There had been talks about a plea deal in the works for Ron since April. Now will LE think of something else and go back and ask Ron or any of the other witnesses they have on their list more questions? Imo, yes. I would think they would do that to keep shoring up their case(s) tighter hopefully getting closer to solving it.

IMO

 

[suspicious1]

Sorry a few other things.

I keep seeing reference to Ron refusing to cooperate with the police. I must have missed that come some please find me a source.

Secondly - and this is my opinion. We have had it emphatically stated that had Ron known he would have "killed" whomever was responsible. Personally I think that's a stressed...but why do people think Crystal is any different? She lost her daughter and she has a mother's instincts. Regardless of her past with Ron if she believed in anyway shape or form that Ron was responsible for her daughter's death - I cannot believe she would be supporting him or griefing his sentence in anyway.

Secondly - the theory of junior mistaking Ron as the man in black, I think is very unlikely. I do not believe junior would have not recognized his dad no matter what he was wearing. Every seen a child fooled by his own parent dressed as santa claus? Mannerisms, movement, even if someone never spoke. Kids are intuned to their parents. It is not based on look alone and costumes rarely fool their kids. While I believe junior's statement is very likely a key part of this story. I jsut can't wrap my brain around it being Ron.

Saqqara, I don't have time right now but FWIW, Ron not cooperating with LE.....came from LE....not AH or NG.....but LE. So yeah you've missed something...you may wanna check the media links..

 

[oceanblueeyes]

BBM.

ITA, the drug bust proves that LE does not view Ron as just the grieving father. Ron's plea deal confirms (at least to me) that he has substantial knowledge. Plea deals don't come cheap. I think anyone can conclude that Ron has had this valuable information for some time now, and only gave it up when he needed to save himself. That (and the fact that he married Misty) tells me all I need to know about Ron's involvement.

It shows me that if one breaks the law no matter who they are they get arrested. As it should be.

IMO

 

[Nonni Brenda]

Art Harris corrected his spin of 90 calls. It was more like 24 and that may have been calls made before he went to work and while he was at work.

If he kept trying to get in touch with Misty and she wasnt answering after the 8:30 pm call then some of them he probably just hung up and others he left a short voice mail.

LE has all the phone records.

IMO

BBM... Art said that there were 24 actual calls and the rest were text msgs, if IIRC. I'll go back and look it up. I know when I text, it taks much more time that a phone call. surely someone at work saw him doing all that calling and texting. MOO

 

[suspicious1]

It shows me that if one breaks the law no matter who they are they get arrested. As it should be.

IMO

Yep..it shows me that if someone is involved in the death or cover up of child no matter who they are...they get arrested...as it should be.

Ron is right where he belongs.

 

[dodie20]

Morning Dodie!

Florida has mandatory minimums so I don't understand what you mean he could have gotten less time? He got the minimum allowed and he was looking at 70-90 years or the rest of his natural life. Getting only 15 years with probably having to serve only around 85% IS a sweetheart deal, imo.. One of them only had one offense right? Yet she got the mandatory minimum of 15 years.

But if he went home first to do all of this and then went back to get the cigs and the beer then why would LE comment to him wondering how he got home so fast after work? Imo, they know by now Dodie exactly when he left work and I have read that PDM has surveillance security cameras on sight. I think LE has long verified Ron's whereabouts that day from the time he went to work until the 911 was placed when he arrived home.

LE has always stated that Misty is the key to solving this case and goodness knows she and her brother have derailed this case forever it seems.

IMO

I think it's possible that Ron got off earlier than he stated, went home & did the clean up, & then did the alibi drive. & then claimed to have gotten off work right before the alibi drive...say he actually got off at 1 or 2, but claimed 3. If there was a technology problem with the time clock, or if Ron 'forgot' to clock out, or if he had someone clock out for him, well that opens up a lot of possibilities. If he was crunched for time, then that would explain why LE was so curious as to how he got from here to there so fast. maybe, when he did the ciggy run, he misjudged the timing by several minutes. IDK, but him admitting that LE, early on, was ragging that part of his time line, piqued my interest. & then I add that to Kim P's statements, & I see a potential problem. & then I factor in the timing of Kim's statements, & I think it's a big possibility that this may be a part of his plea deal. One of the main reasons that I think this is possible, is because I know some people who are very similar to these people. They deal drugs, & they'd never call 911, without 1st cleaning house. I really don't see Misty doing a danged thing without consulting Ron 1st. & even if he was distraught & shocked, he'd want the house cleaned. MOO.

 

[Concerned Papa]

Sorry a few other things.

I keep seeing reference to Ron refusing to cooperate with the police. I must have missed that come some please find me a source.

Secondly - and this is my opinion. We have had it emphatically stated that had Ron known he would have "killed" whomever was responsible. Personally I think that's a stressed...but why do people think Crystal is any different? She lost her daughter and she has a mother's instincts. Regardless of her past with Ron if she believed in anyway shape or form that Ron was responsible for her daughter's death - I cannot believe she would be supporting him or griefing his sentence in anyway.

Secondly - the theory of junior mistaking Ron as the man in black, I think is very unlikely. I do not believe junior would have not recognized his dad no matter what he was wearing. Every seen a child fooled by his own parent dressed as santa claus? Mannerisms, movement, even if someone never spoke. Kids are intuned to their parents. It is not based on look alone and costumes rarely fool their kids. While I believe junior's statement is very likely a key part of this story. I jsut can't wrap my brain around it being Ron.

BBM

This is one source:

Cummings has cut off interviews with investigators.

“Besides ‘No I didn’t have nothing to do with my child being missing,’ what do you say?” he asked.

Maj. Gary Bowling, director of law enforcement for the department, said detectives would like to interview Cummings again but have been resisted.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-08-09/story/haleighs_family_remains_divided_6_months_later

 

[dodie20]

I completely agree with OBE on the plea deal. In my opinion people are making way too big of a deal about this meaning Ron knows something, was holding something back or is saving his .

LE knows more than we do. You can guarantee they have verified all those phone calls, confirmed sightings of Ron at work and interviewed other employees as to his demeanor that night. Even had they not viewed Ron as a suspect, they generally would have done the ground work to RULE him out in the beginning.

Knowing what they know (LE) and knowing that eventually this case will be tried LE and Prosecutors would want to guarantee that Ron would cooperate with them in the future possibly against his ex-wife. They are throwing him in jail - they are going to want to have some sort of olive branch to ensure that when they build a case against whomever perpetrated this crime they can use all the evidence they have gathered and are aware of.

Yes, we can assume Ron would have given his help anyway - it's his daughter. But LE and the Prosection can secure his assistance with a plea deal and Ron would be an idiot to turn it down.

Again I respect everyone's right to theorize but we have to be careful not to theorize blindly or on gut reaction. LE has at their disposal far more information than we do and althought I am sure they do make mistakes, we should assume those mistakes are minimal and glean from their actions what direction we think they are taking.

LE and the Prosecutors offered a plea deal - because they believe someone else is responsible and they want to build the strongest case possible against that person.

True, because when it's all said & done, LE wants the murderer...but I think, (I hope), they're holding the coverers responsible for their part too. & in MOO, that includes Ron. Also, IMO, one of the things that kept this case from moving forward, were some BIG unanswered questions. & IMO, Ron, has finally been answering some of those questions. It's my belief, but I could be wrong, (but I don't think so), that LE is making Ron earn that deal.

 

[mck16]

I am wondering why, if RC had all this incriminating information that he has been sitting on that would wrap up this case, nothing new has been done now that he has divulged it in the plea deal. I don't think any information RC may have given to LE has anything to do with what happened to Haleigh.

I also believe that if LE thought he had pertinent information they would have set up this drug sting a long time ago instead of waiting a year. I also think that if RC had drugs and guns in places his children could have gotten to them the CPS would have seen those on their visits to him. And if I am not mistaken there had been one prior to HC going missing. I would also like to know what makes a gun illegal in Florida? Does anyone here know? THis is just my opinion on these items.

 

[justus4all]

Does anyone know/heard..IF Misty is ..STILL on suicide watch???

This seems to have now...gone on the "down low"..

Perhaps the LE is keeping a lid on this...for good reasons

thanks

 

[cyberborg]

The main problem I have with the RC involvement theory is that most of it is based on how he acted and reacted. However, along with being guilty/involved his actions and reactions could just as well be explained if he has a psychological disorder. A sociopath/psychopath doesn't react emotionally in what we'd call a normal manner; it's always about them and how things effect them. So instead of feeling sorry, being fearful, sympathizing or empathizing with what his missing daughter is going through, a psychopath reacts more to what was done to him, "someone stole my daughter." Further, where you or I may care less about what could happen to us if LE found illegal drugs, guns, etc., in our home when our child is missing, a psychopath would want to cover their butt first. Same goes with grieving and mourning: psychopaths just don't put other people's interest, even their children, ahead of their own and they don't feel and respond with emotions the rest of us do.

So if RC is a sociopath/psychopath, I'd expect him to react the way he did regardless of whether he was involved in his daughter's death or not. And he does show some serious signs of the disorder. All his sympathetic/emphathetic emotions are somewhat faked, which is a strong indication of psychopathology, i.e. psychopaths mimic emotions; they don't actually feel them. The exception being anger. Further, psychopaths don't accept responsibility for their own actions. Most parents would blame themselves for their child going missing regardless of if they took every prudent precaution; RC hasn't, nor did losing one child seem to in any way restrict him from putting his other child at risk. Finally, psychopaths are chronic liars and make their way through life controlling and manipulating people.

With all that said, however, not all psychopaths are child killers. And just because he displays all the traits of a psychopath, I don't think that necessarily implies that he's guilty or involved in the cover-up. He may be involved or he may not be, or he may be covering up other illicit activities. But just because he didn't react with the proper emotions, lied and is constantly manipulating everyone around him, doesn't mean he's guilty - that's what psychopaths do as a matter of course.

For me this does not begin to explain many of Ron's actions and reactions ... such as texting Misty to warn her about DB and also ... Ron responding to NG that he never discussed the timeline of HaLeigh going missing with Misty in detail. Ron is/was the master of short repetitive phrases so as not to slip-up and self incriminate.

Add to that TN's statements and interaction as context and you have a Cummings cover-up .... why if it was just the Croslin's were the Cummings not open to various theories .... they knew better?

 

[dodie20]

I am wondering why, if RC had all this incriminating information that he has been sitting on that would wrap up this case, nothing new has been done now that he has divulged it in the plea deal. I don't think any information RC may have given to LE has anything to do with what happened to Haleigh.

I also believe that if LE thought he had pertinent information they would have set up this drug sting a long time ago instead of waiting a year. I also think that if RC had drugs and guns in places his children could have gotten to them the CPS would have seen those on their visits to him. And if I am not mistaken there had been one prior to HC going missing. I would also like to know what makes a gun illegal in Florida? Does anyone here know? THis is just my opinion on these items.

Guns aren't illegal in Fl, but stolen guns are, unregistered machine guns are, a minor sleeping with 1 under her pillow migt not be technically illegal, (if it's registered to the homeowner), but it's pushing it...there were a lot of gun problems in that house. Ron has admitted that there was fight over 1, Tim Miller said that Ron threatened to blow Misty's brains through the wall, & stuck 1 in his mouth, while Jr was watching, & Crystal said he did the same thing, in front of Haleigh, & if I'm not mistaken, Amber, (his ex gf), said that he also terrorized her with a gun. too many gun stories to keep straight.

 

[cyberborg]

All they had in Laci's case was her mother had talked to her at 8:30 the night before she was reported "missing" the next afternoon. There was about a 20 hour gap before she was reported missing.

I dont see that Ron had to have new information. There had been talks about a plea deal in the works for Ron since April. Now will LE think of something else and go back and ask Ron or any of the other witnesses they have on their list more questions? Imo, yes. I would think they would do that to keep shoring up their case(s) tighter hopefully getting closer to solving it.

IMO

A ToD was not important in the murder of Laci because they had a lot of evidence on SP, he was the obvious perp and, they ultimately had the body.

I don't see how this compares to the HaLeigh case IMO because there is a very broad timeline here depending upon who you choose to believe and thus, Ron's alibi only covers a 'part' of the time currently in question. It is a reach of pure faith to conclude that Ron has an alibi and thus is innocent when ToD is critical in this case. We cannot rely on many statements because there is even conflicting stories as to who picked up HaLeigh from the school bus ... so we cannot cherry pick what fits our preferred theory.

Having said that, there are many holes in that alibi given the layout of PDM, lack of close supervision, the fight and calls home and, statements about Ron previously babysitting the kids there as well as taking off at times. PDM was very loose and Ron had a LOT of flexibility. Who knows?

As to the plea deal, I get that LE/SA want to secure Ron's future testimony about the timeline and maybe other details but ... whether this was important to SA to secure or it was just used as an excuse to give Ron a deal ... we are talking about "Ron trading justice for his daughter, HaLeigh in return for a deal". Ouch!!

As noted above, Ron's lack of complete cooperation with LE in the investigation, his repetitive short phrases to provide minimal info/help, his intense stage managing of Misty and, the need for a plea deal to secure future testimony speak volumes to me about Ron's involvement and knowledge ... thus active participation in the cover up (with the help of TN).

 

[Searchfortruth]

It shows me that if one breaks the law no matter who they are they get arrested. As it should be.

IMO

I agree, they should be arrested, they should also be charged, convicted (if guilty) and sentenced, in a just and fair manner. Ron has a long list of previous drug crimes, and with those, plus these latest crimes, I don't see the "just and fair" part.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I am wondering why, if RC had all this incriminating information that he has been sitting on that would wrap up this case, nothing new has been done now that he has divulged it in the plea deal. I don't think any information RC may have given to LE has anything to do with what happened to Haleigh.

I also believe that if LE thought he had pertinent information they would have set up this drug sting a long time ago instead of waiting a year. I also think that if RC had drugs and guns in places his children could have gotten to them the CPS would have seen those on their visits to him. And if I am not mistaken there had been one prior to HC going missing. I would also like to know what makes a gun illegal in Florida? Does anyone here know? THis is just my opinion on these items.

Hi mck16! the above question BBM.. This is jmo, so hopefully someone else will also weigh-in on this particular question to either correct my opinion or add more info/detail to what makes a gun illegal in Florida?

I'm not 100% EXACTLY what your question is pertaining to, so I will answer it[of course as I said jmo]in a couple different ways..

First, the easy way of what would make it illegal for RC specifically to own/have in his possession a gun or ANY guns for that matter is the fact that If I'm Not Mistaken he is no longer legally allowed to own/possess guns because of prior convictions in the state of Florida..

Secondly, if your question of "what makes a gun illegal in the state of Florida" was pertaining to what the actual "type/kind" of guns would be deemed illegal to own? The actual "prized" gun of Ron's that has been labeled by Werter/Fields as the goal of JO/Tommy's visit to the MH that night was to retrieve this particular "prized" gun.. It is a vintage WWII machine gun and IMO it being a military issued weapon would deem it illegal for anyone to be owning/possessing..[PLZ correct me if I'm wrong]..
The following is a snip describibg the gun and that it is infact illegal...

~begin snip~

But Croslin’s Joe-came to steal the machine gun claim may have earned a smidgen of credibility based on exclusive new details learned by The Bald Truth: sources close to the case tell me law enforcement has recovered a vintage World War II machine gun in a green Army duffle bag they believe belonged to Cummings.

“That’s exactly how Tommy described it,” Steve Brown, ex FBI agent turned private eye, tells The Bald Truth. “He called it an old ‘Army type machine gun.’ When he said ‘old,’ I was thinking M-16, like Vietnam. But he meant really ‘old,’ and it was old.”

“What it means is that the machine gun is real,” Steve Brown goes on, adding that his law enforcement contacts advised him they’d retrieved it from a Putnam County drop site after an anonymous tipster heard they were looking for it and phoned in directions to the gun. Other sources tell me a Cummings relative was harboring the illegal weapon for Ronald. “The only thing Misty was wrong about was the color of the bag. She said it was black. Maybe Joe had a black coat over it when he left

~end snip~

Hope that helped to answer your question .. Am quite sure someone else can weigh in and give us both more info/detailed answer..

 

[suspicious1]

BBM

This is one source:

Thank you CP...also from the same article:

Bowling said it takes rock-solid alibis before detectives can eliminate anyone and those have not been established. He said the best that can be done is assign degrees of suspicion to people.

<end>

and also from that article...

Cummings said he and former girlfriend Misty Croslin — who he has since married and is now Misty Cummings — have been unfairly targeted.

“There should have been more attention to Crystal’s family,” he said. “I think they should have paid more attention to everyone rather than just me and Misty.”

<end>

Six months later, even Ron is admitting that LE had targeted him and Misty. He said that LE was paying more attention to him and Misty and no one else....RON and MISTY. Just like in the drug bust....RON and MISTY were still being targeted.

IMO, this is why Ron stop cooperating......he felt he was being targeted....and those are his own words.

 

[cyberborg]

I think it's possible that Ron got off earlier than he stated, went home & did the clean up, & then did the alibi drive. & then claimed to have gotten off work right before the alibi drive...say he actually got off at 1 or 2, but claimed 3. If there was a technology problem with the time clock, or if Ron 'forgot' to clock out, or if he had someone clock out for him, well that opens up a lot of possibilities. If he was crunched for time, then that would explain why LE was so curious as to how he got from here to there so fast. maybe, when he did the ciggy run, he misjudged the timing by several minutes. IDK, but him admitting that LE, early on, was ragging that part of his time line, piqued my interest. & then I add that to Kim P's statements, & I see a potential problem. & then I factor in the timing of Kim's statements, & I think it's a big possibility that this may be a part of his plea deal. One of the main reasons that I think this is possible, is because I know some people who are very similar to these people. They deal drugs, & they'd never call 911, without 1st cleaning house. I really don't see Misty doing a danged thing without consulting Ron 1st. & even if he was distraught & shocked, he'd want the house cleaned. MOO.

I agree Ron's alibi is flawed and there is lots of possibilities.

IIRC Shoemaker said that Ron worked an 8 hour shift and left early, getting to work 45 mins before his shift was due to start. We also are told that Ron worked 3 hours overtime finishing at 3am?

To me, the math just does not compute. If Ron's normal end time was Midnight then how does his start time allow for an 8-hour shift? Also, if he worked overtime how/when did he let Misty know so that she did not freak out?

We also have the nature of PDM and if the statements are true about Ron babysitting the kids there in the past and sneaking out then the alibi is shaky, very shaky. He has a lot of flexibility in how/when he works.

Add to that the statement that Ron was working out in the yard that night and most of the yard is dark, extensive, no cameras and, no/little supervision.

What raises my Hinky Meter is that Ron (via Shoemaker) was in work 45 mins early (who does that?) and worked 3 hours overtime. To me this is a stretch, a stretch to extend the timeline to cover as much time as he possibly could before it was time to stop by the convenience store and come home to make the 911 call.

Maybe you can have your cake and eat it but .... for Ron to claim he picked up HaLeigh from school, went directly to work (45 mins early), worked overtime (3 hours), stopped by the convenience store and, arrived home to call 911 at ~3:27 is toooooooooo convenient.

Ron is such a lucky guy that the whole time in question, from picking a live HaLeigh from school to calling 911 is covered by being 'at werk'. Sure ... he has a rock solid alibi.

I don't think so.