Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.

Richard Allen has been arrested and charged with the murders of Abby and Libby

ISP page dedicated to the investigation (includes audio of suspect)

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

PICTURES OF ABBY AND LIBBY
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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video
Hidden True Crime
Lawyer Lee
Grayhuze youtube channel
Murder sheet YouTube

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

NOTE - per Tricia and Sillybilly’s 5.28.2021 post here, JBC as a poi is now open for discussion in the Delphi thread.

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[Tricia]

A consolidation of ADMIN & MOD notes (edited November 24, 2022):

- Members are allowed to discuss Richard Allen's voice as heard on the Gray Hughes podcast. Members may NOT link directly to RA's wife’s social media accounts.

- Speculation about RA’s possible involvement in other cases belongs in the OTHER CASES thread.

- Speculation that is not based on known fact is not allowed.

- Please use initials only for anyone other than victims or perps.

- If you have questions about rules or moderation, please do not ask them on the thread. Just jump off any post to use the Report feature to ask and a Mod or Admin will respond as soon as possible.

- Rumors are not allowed. If you can't link information to Websleuths approved sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

- Sleuthing or discussing RSOs just because they are on the registry is not allowed. A thread specific exception may be made by Tricia or an Admin depending on geographical location in relation a crime.

- Photo alterations or side-by-side comparisons of unrelated pictures are not allowed.

 

[Tricia]

ADMIN NOTE:

Sorry folks, but statement analysis, body language analysis, amateur handwriting analysis is not allowed unless sourced to a credentialed, forensic specialist involved in the case under discussion.

This discussion is dedicated to Abby and Libby. Posts that do not relate directly to their case are off topic and such posts get removed. If you wish to discuss personal matters, please do so with your WS friends through PM or in the basement.

Also, the presumption of innocence is part and parcel of the judicial process. It does not apply to the general public who are entitled to express their opinion. Members are not here to be lectured or chastised by others for expressing their personal opinions. If you have an issue, use the Report feature and let Mods or Admins determine what is or is not okay to post.

Thanks.

Sillybilly
WS Administrator

Click here for The Rules

 

[AugustWest]

Thanks for the link. I found this interesting.

Haven't courts already established the validity and reliability of DNA and toolmark evidence? And the courts only allow whats considered to be valid forensic evidence?

PCAST Releases Report on Forensic Science in Criminal Courts

President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology recommends actions to strengthen forensic science and promote its more rigorous use in the courtroom.

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

@RANCH Courts have considered toolmark analysis to be valid in the past, but the legal community has begun to question it in recent years. Maryland courts in particular. DNA, as far as I know, is still considered very reliable.

I made a post some time ago on it that contains a couple law journal articles on jurisdictional trends questioning toolmark reliability. I've linked it below should you be interested in reading further.

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192'

Aug 15, 2024

I think he's guilty MOO. but the argument would be racking a gun and an unspent bullet coming out is going to be argued as junk science, I personally don't know if it's scientifically accurate or some sort of pseudo science like handwriting analysis or something, if someone has a good article I would like to read it

@KSwizzle

Here is an article that discusses the issue:

Ballistics experts can't testify that recovered bullets match firearms, Md. high court rules

The field of firearms identification is not reliable enough to allow expert testimony linking crime scene bullets to specific guns, Maryland's top court ruled.

thedailyrecord.com

I have a U.S. government study linked somewhere that shows some...

• AugustWest

• 

 

[shonyakay]

There are details about the hair that are unknown to us at this time.

Cicero described Abby as wearing a large dark sweatshirt.

I would not not describe the jacket Abby is seen wearing in the High Bridge picture as a large dark sweatshirt. It looks like a gray sweater jacket imo.

Kelsi mentioned that she let Abby borrow a jacket of hers and that Libby took a sweater/jacket of hers (Libby's) that Libby had left in her car previously.

Whether Abby had on Kelsi's jacket when found or possibly Libby"s sweatshirt, either could have caused secondary hair transfer to Abby's hand.

Secondary hair transfer would be even more easy if clothing items were wet when touched.

 

[WildHuncher]

How is it important? Did one of Libby's female cousins kill the girls? Or her grandmother? Does anyone really believe that?

It is total deflection to point attention away from the man who has already admitted to being there on that bridge on that afternoon. IMO

I hate to think either side in a trial like this is playing fast and loose with facts to get a high-profile win. If the P cheats and it turns out they had it wrong all along, an innocent accused suffers and a killer is still free. The good news is I don’t see the cops conniving to frame a poor innocent drug store employee. The investigation has been dogged by mistakes and red herrings, but no cheating. (Purely IMHO.)

The D is visibly playing fast and loose. Those Franks memoranda. That bit about the “untested” hair in the opening statement. Any trick in the book will do to befuddle one or two credulous, uncritical jurors.

This is a vision of their job that I do not share. RA is entitled to a serious, sober, critical examination of the case against him. He does not deserve a 50 / 50 or better chance to walk free regardless of the likelihood he murdered those two girls.

Would I feel differently in his shoes? Yes, but that’s irrelevant. I don’t want to be convicted of the murders of two young girls. That would certainly be true were I innocent. But it would still be true if I’m guilty. We need the system to identify and punish the guilty. It is society’s needs that matter.

Cheap stunts designed to mislead and distort have no place. What is happening here is wrong.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

It's their job. It looks like they're certainly making an impression on the local Fox News channel. It's all about clicks and revenue generated and the defense knows that. They've got Fox now breathlessly reporting on the mysterious unidentified hair found in Libby's hand.

They only have to convince 1 juror.

Lots of publicity and conspiracy theories during the trial also makes it potentially easier to win on appeal. They're playing to the potential jury pool that will hear an appeal several years from now.

Seems NBC has also jumped on the bandwagon regarding the hair...
NBC NEWS

Oct. 18, 2024
By Erik Ortiz and Tim Stelloh

U.S. NEWS

Delphi murder trial: Richard Allen used power and fear to kill the teen victims, prosecutors say in their opening statement​

Allen is charged in the 2017 murders of Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14. His lawyers proclaimed his innocence during his trial in Carroll County, Indiana.

<<snip>>

"He also said that a strand of hair found on Abby's fingers — evidence that was not made public in the case — is not from Allen or the girls and that testing should be done to see if it matches one of the girls' relatives."

JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I suppose the courts allow that evidence to be presented, but in every trial, the other side is also allowed to poke holes at the evidence with their own expert - so calling an expert to say 'your expert says the toolmarks match. I believe they don't' would be permitted.

IMO

Yes, we have an adversarial justice system.

The legal framework of the United States is commonly referred to as an adversarial system. Based on English common law, it established normative procedures that mediate conflicts between opposing parties, with a goal of minimizing the impact of governmental actions on entrenched personal rights.

Adversarial System of Justice

"Adversarial System of Justice" published on by null.

www.oxfordbibliographies.com

 

[Melted]

So that they can show a jury that they know exactly who it belongs to, and that that person is not a suspect in the murders.

MOO

Which, in any investigation, should have been thoroughly tested to find out who it belonged to in 2017, not 2024. JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

@RANCH Courts have considered toolmark analysis to be valid in the past, but the legal community has begun to question it in recent years. Maryland courts in particular. DNA, as far as I know, is still considered very reliable.

I made a post some time ago on it that contains a couple law journal articles on jurisdictional trends questioning toolmark reliability. I've linked it below should you be interested in reading further.

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192'

Aug 15, 2024

I think he's guilty MOO. but the argument would be racking a gun and an unspent bullet coming out is going to be argued as junk science, I personally don't know if it's scientifically accurate or some sort of pseudo science like handwriting analysis or something, if someone has a good article I would like to read it

@KSwizzle

Here is an article that discusses the issue:

Ballistics experts can't testify that recovered bullets match firearms, Md. high court rules

The field of firearms identification is not reliable enough to allow expert testimony linking crime scene bullets to specific guns, Maryland's top court ruled.

thedailyrecord.com

I have a U.S. government study linked somewhere that shows some...

• AugustWest

• 

Sadly it's behind a paywall for me.

I'll look further on my own.

 

[iamshadow21]

Which, in any investigation, should have been thoroughly tested to find out who it belonged to in 2017, not 2024. JMO

With none of the family members being suspects and albied elsewhere? And the hoodie being borrowed from that family? And the victim having just spent the night at that family's house and being driven in their car?

A family match in those circumstances is enough to not pursue further. Especially when they have a male on video and audio committing the crime.

An investigation is not a bottomless money pit. They could account for the hair, they moved on.

MOO

 

[susiQ]

I haven't been able to follow closely due to real life preventing me from doing so. I love that the Jurors are allowed to ask questions and from what I have read, they are very engaged and asking good ones.

Has anyone found out what the deposition was all about where Anna W. was deposed by defense after the 3 day hearing? Is there a link to it? TIA

All MOO.

Not sure what the deposition was about, but apparently there’s something in there that the D will give as an Offer of Proof of third party actor(s) during the trial that is “new”, something they did not have during the 3 day hearing. I don’t have the link handy, but it is Trial Day One podcast by TMS at about the 1hr 42 min mark.
MOO
Ed: time stamp on video

 

[ClearAhead]

Um, why? 2am is after midnight.

Oh you’re right, thank you!

 

[AugustWest]

Sadly it's behind a paywall for me.

I'll look further on my own.

I linked it for the law review journal articles at the bottom. The article wasn't paywalled earlier, so I apologize for that. I also found some case law on the issue I had stored away. The concurring opinion here is how the D.C. Circuit views toolmark analysis now.

Williams v. United States, 130 A.3d 343 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Williams v. United States, 130 A.3d 343, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

 

[Melted]

With none of the family members being suspects and albied elsewhere? And the hoodie being borrowed from that family? And the victim having just spent the night at that family's house and being driven in their car?

A family match in those circumstances is enough to not pursue further. Especially when they have a male on video and audio committing the crime.

An investigation is not a bottomless money pit. They could account for the hair, they moved on.

MOO

They had no idea who killed the girls for 5 years, testing the only dna they have on scene completely and as thorough as possible is the most obvious thing they should have done, yes.

Nobody was cleared. JMO

 

[Tricia]

If you want to place a member on "IGNORE," click on their username. A box will pop up. Look at the bottom of that box and click on "IGNORE."

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I linked it for the law review journal articles at the bottom. The article wasn't paywalled earlier, so I apologize for that. I also found some case law on the issue I had stored away. The concurring opinion here is how the D.C. Circuit views toolmark analysis now.

Williams v. United States, 130 A.3d 343 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Williams v. United States, 130 A.3d 343, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

Thank you very much. I've already found some information that I find interesting and will keep reading.

I don't feel that toolmark evidence will reach the level of DNA. That said if it can tell us the make and model of a firearm and that it matches the defendants gun then I'll still consider it to be valuable evidence. JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

I hate to think either side in a trial like this is playing fast and loose with facts to get a high-profile win. If the P cheats and it turns out they had it wrong all along, an innocent accused suffers and a killer is still free. The good news is I don’t see the cops conniving to frame a poor innocent drug store employee. The investigation has been dogged by mistakes and red herrings, but no cheating. (Purely IMHO.)

The D is visibly playing fast and loose. Those Franks memoranda. That bit about the “untested” hair in the opening statement. Any trick in the book will do to befuddle one or two credulous, uncritical jurors.

This is a vision of their job that I do not share. RA is entitled to a serious, sober, critical examination of the case against him. He does not deserve a 50 / 50 or better chance to walk free regardless of the likelihood he murdered those two girls.

Would I feel differently in his shoes? Yes, but that’s irrelevant. I don’t want to be convicted of the murders of two young girls. That would certainly be true were I innocent. But it would still be true if I’m guilty. We need the system to identify and punish the guilty. It is society’s needs that matter.

Cheap stunts designed to mislead and distort have no place. What is happening here is wrong.

Honestly, I respect what the defense is doing here. It frustrates the hell out of me of course, but they're the arguments I'd expect them to make in order to discredit the prosecution case. If you can't win with facts, stretch them as much as you can. Mislead, misdirect, confuse.

Let's throw out a scenario that an officer bizarrely unholstered his gun, cycled a round, and left it there. It works in theory, because (if I'm not mistaken), the sheriff's department does use the same caliber ammunition that was found at the scene.

Let's plant the seed that the investigation was sloppy, by implying that foreign hair was found in Libby's hand. That works because a hair was in fact found, albeit apparently female and almost certainly unrelated to the girls' killer.

Both of those are stretches, especially the former, but that's nothing like the stretch they're making by suggesting that the girls were removed from the scene, murdered, and bizarrely returned. This one I don't like, because very few people would fall for it, as it's as crazy as laughable. That one does work on some level though, as they can claim that searchers should have seen their bodies that night.

Yes, the burden is on the prosecution. But the defense has to do all they can to prevent them from reaching that burden. I'm sure as things progress they'll be able to get some legitimate shots, in addition to the more outlandish attempts at that.

 

[shonyakay]

They had no idea who killed the girls for 5 years, testing the only dna they have on scene completely and as thorough as possible is the most obvious thing they should have done, yes.

Nobody was cleared. JMO

The only DNA? RL's search warrant described hairs and fibers found at the crime scene.

 

[Tricia]

Brought over from the last thread for those who may have missed it
Hi Everyone,
Let's agree that Judge Gull runs a very tight and limited courtroom.
There is no video, no audio, and limited seating for media. I don't like it either. However, we keep discussing this over and over and over. Nothing is going to change. We will have to rely on our mainstream media sources to tell us what is going on. At some point, we can get transcripts. Until then, let's just deal the best we can with the situation and stop complaining about the judge. It causes arguments and takes away from the case at hand.
Thank you,
Tricia