Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[sunshineray]

If this is true it may not be an undoing either.

Why weren't they collected for evidence straight away though? That is what I want to know!

Just sticks no branches.

I thought it was a combination of branches and sticks.

JMO MOO JMT

I believe this is one of the topics RA talks about himself, according to ISP Harshman's testimony at the 3 day hearings. It will be an eye opening experience for the jurors to hear the details straight from the horse's mouth. It will be very powerful and also very helpful in understand what really occured that day, not the illogical tale the Defense has proposed in their opening statements. AJMO

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

 

[sunshineray]

The problem is the bullet was not tested until 2023, 6 years after the crime. We already know and the defense is going to let the jury know how this investigative team clearly has a problem with handling evidence (deleting the first 48 hours of all interviews, losing the recorded tip Dullin supposedly recorded of RA, etc etc)

Where was that bullet for 6 years? Who has access to it? And as the jury asked today… is there anyway the bullet that ended up being tested was not the bullet that was taken from the crime scene.

Moo

Makes no difference. It was held, I'm confident, securely in an evidence lock-up, as is normal practice for storing such things before trial. It was tested and evaluated by expets in their field. The chain of custody most certainly listed on the evidence container it was kept in. This is all my opinion as I trust in LE's professionalism with and care of evidence.

 

[sunshineray]

Why did the suspect drag Libby 7-8 feet across the crime scene when she was dying, bleeding out, nearly decapitated? Abby had her neck cut and she died on the spot, not so with Libby. Why was she dragged, bleeding on trees and leaves? What was the suspect thinking?

Because that's where he wanted her? RA will tell the jury himself why. NMcL said in his opening statements RA himself has told the Why and How. I believe him.

 

[sunshineray]

I added the numbers to the court drawing - trying to understand the sequence of events. Red is Abby, yellow is LIbby.

It almost looks like Abby was sitting, or lying down, when fatally killed (possibly first) with one knife stroke, and Libby, sitting next to her, was cut, but not fatally and could get away briefly, then was she tossed around, into a tree, cut again, she left a bloody L palm print on a tree, onto the ground, cut a third time and nearly decapitated, then dragged to another tree, bled out. It seems so violent.

Why would the suspect have such aggression towards women who resemble Libby? He didn't know her, but he targeted her and was vicious towards her for a reason. Libby seems like the obvious target. Why?

View attachment 539605

The why I think might be very simple, she tried to get away. Blood splatter expert Cicero testified at the 3 day hearings that Libby's neck was slashed at from behind, near the tree. She fell to her knees there and put a bloody hand to the tree, probably to try and steady herself to get back up.

I think Libby tried to flee, put up resistance, that's why the overkill of neck slashes with her compared to Abby. </3 </3

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[shonyakay]

DBM.
Not going to call anyone out. The evidence speaks for itself.

 

[sunshineray]

If they weren’t recorded, how would the D or anyone know how accurate the transcripts are? Moo

Maybe the stenographer uses voice writing reporting? I think I remember that from the Murdaugh trial.

What is Verbatim Reporting, Voice Writing Reporting, or Stenomask | Verbatim Reporting Jobs

 

[iamshadow21]

Maybe the stenographer uses voice writing reporting? I think I remember that from the Murdaugh trial.

What is Verbatim Reporting, Voice Writing Reporting, or Stenomask | Verbatim Reporting Jobs

The court reporter for Quinton's trial's been using a stenomask. So think they're becoming more common.

 

[shonyakay]

“No, it did not cover them at all. Their bodies were clearly visible in the photos. The branches were pretty small with the exception of a large limb laying on top of Libby. Based on seeing the photos today, I don’t think the branches were there to try and hide them.”

From that same tweet

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848519035270349247

Just wait. RA's confessed why the branches are there.

Q. If the Defendant made a statement that the branches are there intended to cover the bodies, would that change your opinion?

- Nick M. on Cross with Dr. Perlmutter

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/allenperlmutteraug1-pdf.530071/

 

[iamshadow21]

Just wait. RA's confessed why the branches are there.

Q. If the Defendant made a statement that the branches are there intended to cover the bodies, would that change your opinion?

- Nick M. on Cross with Dr. Perlmutter

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/allenperlmutteraug1-pdf.530071/

Or, the prosecutor was challenging a witness who seemed completely inflexible about changing her opinion when receiving new information that cast things in a different light, which, if I recall correctly, was the defining character trait of Dr. Perlmutter that shone through her testimony at the hearings.

MOO

 

[shonyakay]

Or, the prosecutor was challenging a witness who seemed completely inflexible about changing her opinion when receiving new information that cast things in a different light, which, if I recall correctly, was the defining character trait of Dr. Perlmutter that shone through her testimony at the hearings.

MOO

Actually she seemed to wilter away on Cross imo.

On cross with her Nick M. shared information that would later be in his opening statement.

Motive / Sexual Assault

Q. Fair to say a crime could be sexually motivated, but before the sexual assault occurs, the crime is committed; fair?
A. Could you say that again?
Q. Sure. The crime initially could be sexually motivated, but before any kind of sexual assault occurs, the person kills the victim.
A. Yes.
Q. If the Defendant said that, would that be important information for you to review before you made your analysis?

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/allenperlmutteraug1-pdf.530071/

Report

 

[SouthEnd]

I think I'm starting to see that by taking photos of that bullet being removed and also the markings on it (February 14th, 2017) would prove that that unspent bullet is the exact same one that everyone is going to see when it is shown as evidence in court.

JMT MOO JMO

That makes no sense to me. If they wanted to plant a bullet, wouldn't be super easy to shove one in the ground and then take a perfect video of its "discovery"? How would a photo of the process guarantee anything if we go by the idea that the LE is corrupt?

IMO thinking that the bullet was switched out with 0 evidence is believing that the LE conspired to frame RA since the day of the murders.

Which is an impossibility.

All MOO

 

[Inthedetails]

Why did the suspect drag Libby 7-8 feet across the crime scene when she was dying, bleeding out, nearly decapitated? Abby had her neck cut and she died on the spot, not so with Libby. Why was she dragged, bleeding on trees and leaves? What was the suspect thinking?

A thought came to me - it seems Libby's blood at some point drained UP on her body. I expect we will hear more when the blood analysis experts testify. Could Libby have been head-down over a steep incline at one point? Maybe she fell down while trying to run away and he dragged her back??

I'm sure there are holes in that idea, but it crossed my mind just now.

jmo

 

[FrostedGlass]

If they have pictures of it there, in the ground, why is it important to have a picture of it being removed?

I'm sure it was put in a labeled sealed envelope, dated, signed and taken for testing.

What is a picture of it being picked up and put into the envelope going to do?

MOO
It's important to see the entire cartridge. How can you possibly know cartridge A is cartridge B if you haven't seen the whole thing? IMO, this isn't a case of "trust us", it's absolutely a case of "show me the proof."

 

[SouthEnd]

Why did the suspect drag Libby 7-8 feet across the crime scene when she was dying, bleeding out, nearly decapitated? Abby had her neck cut and she died on the spot, not so with Libby. Why was she dragged, bleeding on trees and leaves? What was the suspect thinking?

IANAL/LE, but I have suffered from depression anxiety disorder, (which is what RA is alleged to have been suffering from) often debilitating, for 30-odd years.

To me, a lot of RA's actions make so much sense it's creepy.

Let's say he decides to abduct the girls: high anxiety but if that was his sick fantasy, high dopamine. He turns of his phone at some point, everything is happening in the moment, very little planning, just sailing on the adrenaline high. However anxiety wins the moment he gets startled/interrupted. Instant despair "oh world what have I done my life is over!". Lashing out and killing Abby out of despair. Trying to kill Libby, getting more and more enraged because of how bad he's failed even in this (aka it becomes a violent kill).

The girls are dead, anxiety is back - they will know, everyone will know. He tries to drag Libby's body, so he can bury, hide them both. He fails because he is a weak man. Despair is setting in, it's all over isn't it? Maybe some branches will hide them. Tries. It's too difficult, now that the Adrenaline is gone. He gives up, having failed in this too. Did he clean himself up? I doubt it, if you are having an anxiety attack its very hard to commit to and finish even simple tasks.

If my wild hypothesis is correct, I'm sure he is looking deranged and/or scared on his way to his car, which is something I'll be curious to hear more about from the muddy and bloody witness.

Most importantly, the depression/anxiety loop explains to me why he tried to go to LE. It doesn't matter how evil a person is, the anxiety would be telling him - you are going down anyways, better tell them already. I believe that DD says something that makes RA think they really aren't looking into him and that he can get away with it so he never actually confesses back then.

I don't think RA offended since because I don't think he is the kind of killer who actually enjoyed the murders. IMO he enjoyed the control but he had very little of it. I think the girls fought in their own way each, I think they destroyed his sick enjoyment until only panic and despair was left in the sick man who killed them.

That's all MOO. And whoever the perpetrator is, I hope they don't have a moment of peace until they confess/make ammends.

That's also MOO.

 

[mrjitty]

MOO
It's important to see the entire cartridge. How can you possibly know cartridge A is cartridge B if you haven't seen the whole thing? IMO, this isn't a case of "trust us", it's absolutely a case of "show me the proof."

Do you have any proof to suggest it was switched by corrupt LE to frame RA?

Because the prosecution has delivered the evidence and testimony that establish it was discovered, photographed and taken as evidence. There is no credible doubt here.

MOO

 

[Dhighsmith]

That makes no sense to me. If they wanted to plant a bullet, wouldn't be super easy to shove one in the ground and then take a perfect video of its "discovery"? How would a photo of the process guarantee anything if we go by the idea that the LE is corrupt?

IMO thinking that the bullet was switched out with 0 evidence is believing that the LE conspired to frame RA since the day of the murders.

Which is an impossibility.

All MOO

Absolutely agree with you and although I’ve not compiled any statistical data it appears we may be in the minority or it may be those who believe LE was involved have been more active in these discussions lately. JMO, which doesn’t mean much lately.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'd love to know who was BM's source which led to her promoting the bullet conspiracy. It feels very coordinated to me between the speculation in motions about lack of COC and her claiming it was found later. Hey presto you have a conspiracy about the key piece of evidence - none of which turns out to be true. It was found immediately. It was.photographed in situ. Multiple COC witnesses exist.

Will we eventually learn the source was one of the D surrogates who has continuously promoted COC stories?

MOO

IMO
It seems that BM has been a long-time trusted person by LE and it likely came from them.
I think there is a misunderstanding here. We know when the cartridge was photographed but when it was actually collected is the question. Hopefully someone will testify that they are the one who collected it when the photograph of it was taken.

In the meantime, we do know investigators went back to the scene to do something. I believe Feb 14, 2017 was a Tuesday and the crime scene had been released for a day or so by Friday.

Friday evening, state police hustled back to the crime scene where friends Abby Williams and Libby German were found dead Tuesday. Undercover officers did some work and left about a half-hour later.

Memorial grows as police continue search for Delphi girls' killer

As a community remembers two girls found murdered in a Carroll County forest, police continue to search for their killer.

www.wthr.com

 

[mrjitty]

IMO
It seems that BM has been a long-time trusted person by LE and it likely came from them.
I think there is a misunderstanding here. We know when the cartridge was photographed but when it was actually collected is the question. Hopefully someone will testify that they are the one who collected it when the photograph of it was taken.

In the meantime, we do know investigators went back to the scene to do something. I believe Feb 14, 2017 was a Tuesday and the crime scene had been released for a day or so by Friday.

Memorial grows as police continue search for Delphi girls' killer

As a community remembers two girls found murdered in a Carroll County forest, police continue to search for their killer.

www.wthr.com

It can't have come from LE

We just had testimony from the crime scene photographer who took photos with the girls in situ, and he also photographed the bullet in situ. This was all in the same day. If the bullet was actually taken days later we would have heard that yesterday, as well as in opening.

it seems fairly obvious this was another rumour started by the usual suspects. The only other possibility is that BM put this out there from someone without access to the discovery info, which would of course have been highly irresponsible.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

That makes no sense to me. If they wanted to plant a bullet, wouldn't be super easy to shove one in the ground and then take a perfect video of its "discovery"? How would a photo of the process guarantee anything if we go by the idea that the LE is corrupt?

IMO thinking that the bullet was switched out with 0 evidence is believing that the LE conspired to frame RA since the day of the murders.

Which is an impossibility.

All MOO

I assume the conspiracy is because they didn't photograph identifying features, the bullet in evidence could have been switched years later by corrupt officers who searched RAs house. That would involve them cycling a round through his gun then doing the switch.

Surely there would have been much better ways to frame him?

 

[Trebor5591]

I believe this is one of the topics RA talks about himself, according to ISP Harshman's testimony at the 3 day hearings. It will be an eye opening experience for the jurors to hear the details straight from the horse's mouth. It will be very powerful and also very helpful in understand what really occured that day, not the illogical tale the Defense has proposed in their opening statements. AJMO

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

I feel that if there were indeed "very powerful" statements coming straight from RA, we would have heard more about the details in the opening statement, which we did not, did we?