Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[mrjitty]

We also have this excellent post from a member that highlights yesterday's testimony ... and some specific questions asked by the Jury to a sworn witness with his 'under oath' responses.

The bullet was found, photographed and collected at the crime scene and submitted into evidence.

Any suggestion otherwise amounts to an allegation that CST Datzman committed perjury while testifying under oath.

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Three: The Crime Scene

We discuss the third day of Richard Allen's trial, which saw the jury view graphic crime scene pictures. Support The Murder Sheet by buying a t-shirt here: https://www.murdersheetshop.com/ Send tips to [email protected]. The Murder Sheet is a production of Mystery Sheet LLC.

art19.com

This is why BMs behaviour is damaging to faith in institutions. Based on some source that turns out to be wrong, she created a rumour that the bullet was not collected for days. My guess is her source was the defence.

This kind of thing also harms people who genuinely are the victim of LE misconduct.

MOO

 

[MrsWatson]

Just looking for opinions here - obviously not facts.

Aside from us all wanting justice done and if you set aside the facts we have heard so far - the things we have heard about RA - if you look at the individual, if you see his wife and family, if you see how he was open enough to share those facts we know, if you look at how he has deteriorated in some ways in prison - - do you personally feel he could be capable of doing what was done? Maybe I haven’t heard everything? ( was he a hunter? Previous arrests? Known for being violent?). I am NOT saying my opinion is that he didn’t do it - not at all. I’m just want JUSTICE and for them to have the right guy!!! Also, I know sometimes a killer is not what you expect them to be like - example: Ted Bundy.
Just looking for opinions and conversation!!

JMO

Strictly MOO and only that.

Everyone has three lives; their public life, their private life and their secret life. I think RA had a dark and complex secret life. I think some of that secret life revolved around his daughter, who very strongly resembles Abby. Not going to delve into that too much, because his daughter is also a victim, imo. I think RA had some of the depression/anxiety/too much booze because he was becoming increasingly obsessed with his dark thoughts. This could have been a fantasy he carried for decades. Once he acted upon it, I think he was shocked by what he had done, hence the branches hastily thrown over and losing the bullet. Then, he became quite delighted that he was not caught immediately. Talking to LE like he did, going to work every day, leading his everyday life, I think he took great satisfaction from "hiding in plain sight". I also think his alleged breakdowns while he was locked up were at least half faked. He was being hit with the reality that his fantasy had fallen apart and was shocked by the enormity of what he had done, the cruelty and horror he had subjected Abby and Libby to. He had to be crazy to do something like that, right, or at least in his mind.

We haven't heard any testimony yet about any past creepy behavior but I think we will.

The notion that this is some vast conspiracy that SODDI or he's being framed is ridiculous. That would involve a years-long conspiracy involving several different law enforcement agencies and officers all up and down the chain. Every single one involved would have to agree to keep quiet and continue the conspiracy and be okay with that. Not one single "good cop" in that entire bunch? Ain't nobody trying to frame CVS Ricky.

All of the above is MOO.

 

[Vern]

The problem is the bullet was not tested until 2023, 6 years after the crime. We already know and the defense is going to let the jury know how this investigative team clearly has a problem with handling evidence (deleting the first 48 hours of all interviews, losing the recorded tip Dullin supposedly recorded of RA, etc etc)

Where was that bullet for 6 years? Who has access to it? And as the jury asked today… is there anyway the bullet that ended up being tested was not the bullet that was taken from the crime scene.

Moo

The bullet was matched to having being cycled through RA's gun in October of 2022 ... as per the PCA for his arrest.

That match is what led to his arrest. That crime scene bullet would have been analysed way back when it was found (wait for that chain of custody testimony to see the exact date on that IMO!!), but it cannot be tested to see if it matches a weapon until an actual weapon exists to compare it to. RAs weapon was collected during the search of his home, so obviously no match could be tested for until they had his weapon to test it against.

IMO, I suspect this bullet was also compared to numerous other weapons (of prior POIs ... that did not end up arrested) in the intervening years as well. If they had also had a weapon of same calibre from another potential POI that were tested and a round cycled through that weapon for testing purposes did not match the tooling marks on the crime scene's bullet that would go a heck of a long way in ruling them out.

_Probable Cause Affidavit.pdf

drive.google.com

Your Analysis document is actually dated 19 October 2022. Date is clearly shown just to the right of the Indiana State Police badge at the top of the page.

_Certificate of Analysis from ISP Laboratory Division – B.pdf

drive.google.com

Edited to attach the analysis document.

 

[Seattle1]

I haven't read everything she's ever written but what I have read leads me to believe LE are her sources. Do you think she colluded with one of the attorneys?

^^rsbm

Trying to keep up! Who is BM, the female? I only know of the male. Thanks!

 

[Yemelyan]

^^rsbm

Trying to keep up! Who is BM, the female? I only know of the male. Thanks!

HLN reporter Barbara MacDonald.

 

[sunspun]

Just looking for opinions here - obviously not facts.

Aside from us all wanting justice done and if you set aside the facts we have heard so far - the things we have heard about RA - if you look at the individual, if you see his wife and family, if you see how he was open enough to share those facts we know, if you look at how he has deteriorated in some ways in prison - - do you personally feel he could be capable of doing what was done? Maybe I haven’t heard everything? ( was he a hunter? Previous arrests? Known for being violent?). I am NOT saying my opinion is that he didn’t do it - not at all. I’m just want JUSTICE and for them to have the right guy!!! Also, I know sometimes a killer is not what you expect them to be like - example: Ted Bundy.
Just looking for opinions and conversation!!

JMO

I've been wondering if we know what any of his acquaintances, co-workers, bosses and the like have had to say about him. This would help fill in what we don't know, like you were asking about, since I doubt if any of us personally knew the guy. Like did they say he creeped them out? Said inappropriate things? Never made eye contact? Smelled funny??? Or did everyone basically think of him as just a normal, nice guy? Did they feel there was any reason to worry about him? Or is everyone in total shock/disbelief knowing he's on trial for double murder?

I assume they talked to people he knew. As I understand, he worked in a CVS in a customer-facing position, so plenty of people in the area must have interacted with him. And he must have worked alongside other people. What have they said about him? He kinda looks like a weirdo to me, but I've only seen his pics post-arrest, so that may be why. Has anyone read anything about what these others who knew him might have had to say about him?

 

[Betty P]

I assume the conspiracy is because they didn't photograph identifying features, the bullet in evidence could have been switched years later by corrupt officers who searched RAs house. That would involve them cycling a round through his gun then doing the switch.

Surely there would have been much better ways to frame him?

I'm not sure we know yet that they didn't photograph identifying features. That would have been done when the bullet was examined, would it not? It was examined during the early part of the investigation, right? Has the lab worker who conducted the tests testified yet?

It's frustrating that people are jumping to conclusions about evidence, even though the relevant investigators haven't yet been called to testify. Don't people realize that CSI agents are specialized into specific skills?

 

[steeltowngirl]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848690564448899111

 

[Yemelyan]

Posting these two diagrams that we have drawn by reporters in prior Tweets, for comparison purposes.



View attachment 539598View attachment 539599

These drawings from two different reporters are so remarkably consistent.

Before seeing these, I had wondered if he simply was attempting to conceal the victims and gave up before doing it adequately but now that I see the arrangement of branches I do think this is an attempt (probably unwitting on the part of the killer) at "undoing;" I see the way the branches cluster near areas where the girls were wounded or exposed as if he tried to cover these areas specifically.

Does the second drawing depict a trail of blood around the tree closest to Libby?

 

[steeltowngirl]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848574593726034325

 

[Vaderman]

IANAL/LE, but I have suffered from depression anxiety disorder, (which is what RA is alleged to have been suffering from) often debilitating, for 30-odd years.

To me, a lot of RA's actions make so much sense it's creepy.

Let's say he decides to abduct the girls: high anxiety but if that was his sick fantasy, high dopamine. He turns of his phone at some point, everything is happening in the moment, very little planning, just sailing on the adrenaline high. However anxiety wins the moment he gets startled/interrupted. Instant despair "oh world what have I done my life is over!". Lashing out and killing Abby out of despair. Trying to kill Libby, getting more and more enraged because of how bad he's failed even in this (aka it becomes a violent kill).

The girls are dead, anxiety is back - they will know, everyone will know. He tries to drag Libby's body, so he can bury, hide them both. He fails because he is a weak man. Despair is setting in, it's all over isn't it? Maybe some branches will hide them. Tries. It's too difficult, now that the Adrenaline is gone. He gives up, having failed in this too. Did he clean himself up? I doubt it, if you are having an anxiety attack its very hard to commit to and finish even simple tasks.

If my wild hypothesis is correct, I'm sure he is looking deranged and/or scared on his way to his car, which is something I'll be curious to hear more about from the muddy and bloody witness.

Most importantly, the depression/anxiety loop explains to me why he tried to go to LE. It doesn't matter how evil a person is, the anxiety would be telling him - you are going down anyways, better tell them already. I believe that DD says something that makes RA think they really aren't looking into him and that he can get away with it so he never actually confesses back then.

I don't think RA offended since because I don't think he is the kind of killer who actually enjoyed the murders. IMO he enjoyed the control but he had very little of it. I think the girls fought in their own way each, I think they destroyed his sick enjoyment until only panic and despair was left in the sick man who killed them.

That's all MOO. And whoever the perpetrator is, I hope they don't have a moment of peace until they confess/make ammends.

That's also MOO.

This scenario makes the most sense to me. Add in some day drinking and it all fits for me.

 

[mrjitty]

I'm not sure we know yet that they didn't photograph identifying features. That would have been done when the bullet was examined, would it not? It was examined during the early part of the investigation, right? Has the lab worker who conducted the tests testified yet?

It's frustrating that people are jumping to conclusions about evidence, even though the relevant investigators haven't yet been called to testify. Don't people realize that CSI agents are specialized into specific skills?

Yeah. It's frustrating.

I went back to the Franks and these questions from Rozzi's cross are all in there as well. So they set up over a year ago to claim it was a fit up. This is why I suspect it's them who seeded the rumour with BM.

You would hope there is some accountability for this some day.

MOO

 

[Betty P]

It can't have come from LE

We just had testimony from the crime scene photographer who took photos with the girls in situ, and he also photographed the bullet in situ. This was all in the same day. If the bullet was actually taken days later we would have heard that yesterday, as well as in opening.

it seems fairly obvious this was another rumour started by the usual suspects. The only other possibility is that BM put this out there from someone without access to the discovery info, which would of course have been highly irresponsible.

MOO

This is why judges are using more and more gag orders prior to murder trials. Too much gossip on social media, too much blurring of lines between news reporting and entertainment$$$$. JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

This scenario makes the most sense to me. Add in some day drinking and it all fits for me.

I would really be surprised if he didn’t have alcohol in his system at the time. We’ll never know unless he confessed to that, but it would explain his lack of inhibition when committing this crime.

This was insanely high risk.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

I can understand the frustration and questions around the chain of custody for the bullet- and not necessarily assume a major conspiracy theory-

OP mentioned a dented cake pan in explaining their opinion and to follow with that- if a pan was found and photographed, but only to the extent that it was identified as a pan- and later it was revealed to have specific dents that made it uniquely identifiable- it would make a difference to me as a juror if those unique dents were documented and noted at the time the pan was found

If not and only noted/described much later, that would cause some doubts for me- not necessarily insurmountable doubts, but I might wonder if a pan was perhaps substituted later to make someone look guilty- I probably wouldn’t think they were plotting to frame a specific person for years and finally got around to it

But without some unique specific details and images of the evidence at time of collection and analysis early on- I’d have to question at least a little bit if the item photographed at the scene was the same as the one presented as evidence- just because I’m super skeptical my nature and would wonder why they didn’t have clear images of the unique features of the item

Moo

 

[MassGuy]

These drawings from two different reporters are so remarkably consistent.

Before seeing these, I had wondered if he simply was attempting to conceal the victims and gave up before doing it adequately but now that I see the arrangement of branches I do think this is an attempt (probably unwitting on the part of the killer) at "undoing;" I see the way the branches cluster near areas where the girls were wounded or exposed as if he tried to cover these areas specifically.

Does the second drawing depict a trail of blood around the tree closest to Libby?

I think that reporter was just drawing an arrow to the blood, as it ends with a blood spot that’s in the same place as the other drawing.

I like your theory that he was trying to cover their wounds. The diagrams show a stick over Libby’s throat, and relatively close to Abby’s.

 

[MassGuy]

I can understand the frustration and questions around the chain of custody for the bullet- and not necessarily assume a major conspiracy theory-

OP mentioned a dented cake pan in explaining their opinion and to follow with that- if a pan was found and photographed, but only to the extent that it was identified as a pan- and later it was revealed to have specific dents that made it uniquely identifiable- it would make a difference to me as a juror if those unique dents were documented and noted at the time the pan was found

If not and only noted/described much later, that would cause some doubts for me- not necessarily insurmountable doubts, but I might wonder if a pan was perhaps substituted later to make someone look guilty- I probably wouldn’t think they were plotting to frame a specific person for years and finally got around to it

But without some unique specific details and images of the evidence at time of collection and analysis early on- I’d have to question at least a little bit if the item photographed at the scene was the same as the one presented as evidence- just because I’m super skeptical my nature and would wonder why they didn’t have clear images of the unique features of the item

Moo

That’s just not how it’s done, as items are evidence are protected by chain of custody protocols. Photos are taken at the scene to identify the item and show where it was located. Labs apparently also take photos once they begin the process of identifying the item.

A sealed evidence bag is a container that has a closure to prevent the loss or contamination of evidence. The closure should be tamper-evident, meaning it will reveal if someone has tried to open the bag.


Here are some examples of sealed evidence bags:

• Tamper-evident tape: A proper seal should extend across the entire opening of the container and include the initials of the person sealing it.
• Heat seals: A proper seal should include the initials of the person sealing it.
• Self-seal containers: A proper seal should include the initials of the person sealing it or be in a designated location on the container.
  
  
  Evidence bags also often come with a white label for recording information about the contents, such as the type of evidence, date and time of collection, and the originating location.

 

[m00c0w]

I can understand the frustration and questions around the chain of custody for the bullet- and not necessarily assume a major conspiracy theory-

OP mentioned a dented cake pan in explaining their opinion and to follow with that- if a pan was found and photographed, but only to the extent that it was identified as a pan- and later it was revealed to have specific dents that made it uniquely identifiable- it would make a difference to me as a juror if those unique dents were documented and noted at the time the pan was found

If not and only noted/described much later, that would cause some doubts for me- not necessarily insurmountable doubts, but I might wonder if a pan was perhaps substituted later to make someone look guilty- I probably wouldn’t think they were plotting to frame a specific person for years and finally got around to it

But without some unique specific details and images of the evidence at time of collection and analysis early on- I’d have to question at least a little bit if the item photographed at the scene was the same as the one presented as evidence- just because I’m super skeptical my nature and would wonder why they didn’t have clear images of the unique features of the item

Moo

The toolmarks, as I understand it, would not be visible to the naked eye. Even if they did take a photograph of the entire bullet, it would still be a photograph of a bullet that would look like any other bullet of the same brand and type. The argument would then become “but how do we still know this was the same bullet?” This is exactly what chain of custody is for. The bullet is photographed, it’s bagged and sealed. Any time the seal is broken, someone signs off saying they opened the evidence and reseals it.

Saying that the bullet may have gotten swapped is literally requiring a major conspiracy to happen based on what we know now. There is no separating these things. Someone didn’t accidentally sign out the evidence from ISP, open the bag, replace the bullet with a different bullet, seal the bag, sign the evidence back in.

I just don’t buy this as anywhere near likely. And having photographs of the entire bullet would still not preclude this level of conspiracy theorizing from occurring.

All my opinion.

 

[ClearAhead]

I can understand the frustration and questions around the chain of custody for the bullet- and not necessarily assume a major conspiracy theory-

OP mentioned a dented cake pan in explaining their opinion and to follow with that- if a pan was found and photographed, but only to the extent that it was identified as a pan- and later it was revealed to have specific dents that made it uniquely identifiable- it would make a difference to me as a juror if those unique dents were documented and noted at the time the pan was found

If not and only noted/described much later, that would cause some doubts for me- not necessarily insurmountable doubts, but I might wonder if a pan was perhaps substituted later to make someone look guilty- I probably wouldn’t think they were plotting to frame a specific person for years and finally got around to it

But without some unique specific details and images of the evidence at time of collection and analysis early on- I’d have to question at least a little bit if the item photographed at the scene was the same as the one presented as evidence- just because I’m super skeptical my nature and would wonder why they didn’t have clear images of the unique features of the item

Moo

A dent in a cake pan is clearly obvious but do we know how visible were the markings on the bullet that was retrieved from the ground, or did it required to be cleaned first and examined under a microscope? My understanding from following yesterday’s reports of testimony was a photo was taken but the D was unsatisfied about the quality.

So I think the D would be dissatisfied regardless because the process is not really the main issue, it’s that bullet incriminates RA. Therefore arguing the process is their only way to mitigate the damage it represents towards their client’s guilt. JMO

 

[Deleted member 296739]

That’s just not how it’s done, as items are evidence are protected by chain of custody protocols. Photos are taken at the scene to identify the item and show where it was located. Labs apparently also take photos once they begin the process of identifying the item.

A sealed evidence bag is a container that has a closure to prevent the loss or contamination of evidence. The closure should be tamper-evident, meaning it will reveal if someone has tried to open the bag.


Here are some examples of sealed evidence bags:

• Tamper-evident tape: A proper seal should extend across the entire opening of the container and include the initials of the person sealing it.
• Heat seals: A proper seal should include the initials of the person sealing it.
• Self-seal containers: A proper seal should include the initials of the person sealing it or be in a designated location on the container.
  
  
  Evidence bags also often come with a white label for recording information about the contents, such as the type of evidence, date and time of collection, and the originating location.

View attachment 539665

Thank you, that’s very helpful for my novice understanding of how it works- and as a juror that type of documented chain of custody would satisfy my questions about “planted” evidence- gaps in the chain would create questions for me-

I was just saying that as a non expert I’d probably be the dumb juror asking what looked like stupid or ridiculously simple questions about how and when evidence was collected, secured and analyzed- I’m just ignorant to much of it, and I know that procedures vary by state and jurisdiction

Thank you for you helpful reply