Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[INfisherman]

I didn't check it too closely, just looked it up quickly out of curiosity. I'll defer to your knowledge as an Indiana resident.

Not really a big deal to me, just had to call out an attorney once in my life. Call it a guilty pleasure relative to a bad experience earlier in my life. No disrespect intended.

 

[zh0r4]

And shotguns and rifles are used in the woods. In general...Not handguns

I learned to shoot with pistols on family property in the woods. This is very common in certain parts of the U.S.

 

[al66pine]

INDIANA. Jurors' Questions?

If the jury has questions for a witness, who actually asks them, judge, prosecutor, jury foreperson?

@cbeagle Per IN. Rules of Court below,* the Judge.

"RULE 20. PRELIMINARY INSTRUCTIONS
"(a) The court shall instruct the jury before opening statements by reading the appropriate instructions which shall include at least the following:
"(1) the issues for trial;
.... # 2-6 yadda yadda ....
"(7) that jurors, including alternates, may seek to ask questions of the witnesses by submission of questions in writing."*

No detail in this rule about the exact protocol. My understanding is that any juror or alternate may write question, pass note to bailiff who provides to judge, who reviews & holds sidebar to inform atty's of the question (as some sleuthers already posted).

If a party objects, judge makes ruling.
If no objection or if judge overrules objection, JUDGE READS Q to witness.

^ IME. Welcoming clarification or correction.

________________________________
* "Indiana Rules of Court
"Jury Rules
"Including Amendments Received Through January 1, 2021"
Source Indiana Jury Rules

 

[Bbgiraffe]

I understand that, but this is with knowledge that there is ZERO DNA.

How do you know that? We haven't heard any testimony from experts in DNA. We have no idea what they found in his car. Specifically the carpet investigators cut from the trunk of his car. Do they just randomly cut out carpet to test or do they do that because of a luminol or blue star reaction?

Personally I think he took off his shoes and other muddy/bloody items and put them in his trunk to avoid getting the interior of his car dirty. Moo.

 

[susiQ]

Is BM the DA? If so what gives his wife the right to do that? Or is that just the world we live in now? Spread false information to get what you want!

I want Justice

It’s merely her take on it, much like so much speculation we’ve seen on these threads over the years. How often have we typed MOO, IMO, IMHO and so forth.

We ALL want justice for Abby and Libby. Perhaps the difference being some of us are not convinced of his guilt yet. <modsnip> JMHO as always.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Except it wasn't just sticks, I've read where one large limb was ~3X Libby's height, which would put it at ~15'. And it was laying next to her. I'd think if someone was trying to conceal bodies, they'd use a LOT more sticks, brush, and leaves to cover them. Not a few oddly placed sticks and one really long limb. To me, it wasn't to camouflage, it had another purpose, but what? JMO

I've been thinking about the small number of sticks and twigs on the victims bodies and my feeling is that the killer decided that trying to cover them was taking too long and felt the need to flee the crime scene before being detected. JMO.

 

[wastelands_]

This is new:

In the video, the girls are walking along the bridge and Libby says, “See, this is the path. Um, there’s no path there so we have to go down there.”

Twelve seconds later, “bridge guy” says, “Guys.”

Abby can be heard saying “Hi” very timidly.

Then came the line: Bridge guy says, “Down the hill.”

The video then is sort of thrown around and cuts off.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 4 live blog

Day 4 of the Delphi Murders trial will take place at the Carroll County courthouse on Tuesday. Follow our live blog for the latest updates.

www.wishtv.com

Oh man those poor babies ):

 

[Gemmie]

It almost looks like Abby was sitting, or lying down, when fatally killed (possibly first) with one knife stroke, and Libby, sitting next to her, was cut, but not fatally and could get away briefly, then was she tossed around, into a tree, cut again, she left a bloody L palm print on a tree, onto the ground, cut a third time and nearly decapitated, then dragged to another tree, bled out. It seems so violent.

SBM&BFF

Reading Cicero's testimony about the events leads me to believe that Libby was naked at the time all this went down. Well, what's outlined below and the fact Abby had Libby's clothes.

So all the blood on the tree, the blood that’s to the northeast of the tree, the areas – again smaller areas, two areas noted by the investigators, and the large pooling, all L.G.’s blood.
....
the small accumulations of blood that were observed at different locations within the immediate scene would indicate that she is in those positions, bleeding, for it to get onto the ground and accumulate in that fashion.
...
Based upon the blood stains that were observed on her right thigh, there is a what is referred to as projected pattern observed on the thigh. And a projected pattern is a – it’s basically blood stains or blood under pressure that is being ejected out of the injury, in this case being her neck, which coincides with what I observed on the leg. The stains ejected onto her leg and subsequent flow patterns were made flowing to the inner thigh of the leg.

_Testimony of Major Patrick Cicero Given at Hearing on Motion in Limine Held August 1, 2024.pdf

drive.google.com

But what I wonder is... why not just leave her where she was last, which I think was near Abby's feet? Why drag her over by the tree? Or was it to position them side by side? Why would any of that matter to the killer(s)?

 

[mrjitty]

So RA just confessed in writing then?

I get that nothing matters in this case - but by any standard, that alone seems a fairly massive problem for the defence

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I understand that, but this is with knowledge that there is ZERO DNA.

DNA is not the be all and end all to criminal cases.
Thousands, if not, hundreds of thousands of guilty people have been convicted prior to the use of DNA.

 

[zh0r4]

Can you provide links to support your assertion that it is the "key" evidence?

JMO

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

 

[susiQ]

Jurors watch never-before-seen, enhanced video from Libby German's cellphone | Day 4 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

Voorhies said she passed a man near Freedom Bridge on her walk home, which she said she had to be home by 2:30 p.m.
Voorhies said she waved and said hi to the man she passed, but Voorhies said he did not wave back and "did not seem to be a happy person."

When Voorhies heard about the missing girls, she thought it could have to do with the man she passed who seemed unhappy.

When the prosecution asked Voorhies to give a description of the man she passed, Voorhies said he was overdressed for the weather, had on dark clothes, his face was covered, he was wearing a hat, he was Caucasian, he had a running mask over his mouth and up to his nose, and he had his hands in his pockets.

When the prosecution pulled up a photo of the "bridge guy," Voorhies said, "That was the man I had waved at on the trail."

Defense did score some points though, getting her to admit she could have been influenced by the photo, and her description of his physical features was off.

Interesting she also testified that she is 5’7” and the man she passed appeared taller than herself. JMO

 

[scapa]

Oh man those poor babies ):

This.

Something so horrible in the quickness of it, and the response from A.

Saddest thing I've read thus far in connection with this case. And that's a long list.

 

[Inthedetails]

How do you know that? We haven't heard any testimony from expcerts in DNA. We have no idea what they found in his car. Specifically the carpet investigators cut from the trunk of his car. Do they just randomly cut out carpet to test or do they do that because of a luminol or blue star reaction?

Personally I think he took off his shoes and other muddy/bloody items and put them in his trunk to avoid getting the interior of his car dirty. Moo.

Good point. Maybe his DNA is not at the crime scene (I don't know if it is or isn't), but we don't know if DNA from either victim is found on his items.

jmo

 

[Warwick7]

I wonder if this was just a desperate plea by a broken man wanting out of prison and didn’t realize the implications - just tried getting an interview. It’s so sad the way it’s written - doesn’t seem like an intelligent way to request something official. (I did read an article saying this depiction was as close to the original they could get it).

I don’t know anything about this kind of stuff and if it could be used against him or not. Just seems like he’s gone so weak and little in prison. Not saying he’s innocent. Trying to follow and watch evidence just like every one else while not setting my mind to a guilty verdict before.

JMO

BBM
How is this "plea" going to get him out of prison?? You don't make a statement like this and think you get to go home afterwards.

The other two BBM achieved what he may just have wanted, to be seen as sad and weak.

 

[twall]

Voorhies said she got to her friend's house at 2:20 p.m., five minutes after she saw the "bridge guy."

Jurors watch never-before-seen, enhanced video from Libby German's cellphone | Day 4 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

How could the person RV saw be bridge guy if she saw him at 2:15? According to Libby's video time stamp (2:13) he should of been down the hill by then. Am I missing something?
Also, RV's description of the man she saw does not match RA's appearance at all!

 

[ClearAhead]

Interesting she also testified that she is 5’7” and the man she passed appeared taller than herself. JMO

Edit - She was 16 years old but how tall was she in Feb 2017?

 

[twall]

But how old and how tall was she in Feb 2017?

She was 16 and she was/still is 5'7"

Jurors watch never-before-seen, enhanced video from Libby German's cellphone | Day 4 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

 

[Arkay]

It's hard to say what goes on in the mind of murderer. The girls are dead. My opinion, he's coming down from the 'high', reality setting in. Was it an attempt to cover up his deeds? Maybe. Maybe not.

He might have been fixin' to start a fire.

I agree about coming down from the “high.”

Not too sure he’d set a fire…that would have immediately drawn attention to the crime scene. It was still daytime and too easy to get caught that way.

JMO

 

[justtrish]

It is legal to shoot on your property, for any reason including target practice.

The problem for RA is he said he's never been on RL's property with his gun and he's never let anyone borrow it.. since the crime scene was not his property, no reason for a round from his gun to be in that location.

SBM&BFF

Reading Cicero's testimony about the events leads me to believe that Libby was naked at the time all this went down. Well, what's outlined below and the fact Abby had Libby's clothes.

So all the blood on the tree, the blood that’s to the northeast of the tree, the areas – again smaller areas, two areas noted by the investigators, and the large pooling, all L.G.’s blood.
....
the small accumulations of blood that were observed at different locations within the immediate scene would indicate that she is in those positions, bleeding, for it to get onto the ground and accumulate in that fashion.
...
Based upon the blood stains that were observed on her right thigh, there is a what is referred to as projected pattern observed on the thigh. And a projected pattern is a – it’s basically blood stains or blood under pressure that is being ejected out of the injury, in this case being her neck, which coincides with what I observed on the leg. The stains ejected onto her leg and subsequent flow patterns were made flowing to the inner thigh of the leg.

_Testimony of Major Patrick Cicero Given at Hearing on Motion in Limine Held August 1, 2024.pdf

drive.google.com

But what I wonder is... why not just leave her where she was last, which I think was near Abby's feet? Why drag her over by the tree? Or was it to position them side by side? Why would any of that matter to the killer(s)?

I'd say he had a better chance of concealing them with those branches/sticks if he had them positioned closer together. Could be his idea with putting the branches on them and moving Libby to a better position.. maybe trying to get her more behind that tree. It's hard to say without seeing the actual photos, which I don't wish to see.