Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate(MERGED)

Do you think ICA killed Caylee on purpose or by accident?

  • On purpose...

    Votes: 230 87.8%
  • It was an accident..

    Votes: 32 12.2%

  • Total voters
    262
  • #141
Honestly, my first thought about the duct tape was that it was used afterwards to keep fluids from escaping the body.

But thank you for making me feel better. :) I guess I have to continue to hear all the evidence. I guess I'm just such an optimistic person that I keep HOPING it was an accident, you know? But yeah, that doesn't explain the lying.

Yep! You think like my hubby!!:D I keep hearing Shirley P's words, (Cindy's mother). She said she believed that Casey hated Cindy more than she loved caylee. :( My hubby's parents were very active in my son's life and I thanked God every day that they loved him so much. There should NEVER be jealousy between a mom, sibling or in laws. It's love in the purest form. :)
 
  • #142
Understood, and my dear hubby thinks like you do. He thinks that she was chloroformed and was given too much and Casey panicked. He then thinks she applied the tape to keep Caylee from purging in her car. But then hubby hasn't read ALL 10,000 pages like I have and just started today, watching the videos. ;) I totally disagree with my DH, but that's what has made our marriage so strong. I don't believe in the DP & he does. Notice in my siggy, my brother? He wants to be the one to give his murderer the injection and I respect his feelings. After all, we literally raised my baby bro. He would rather be with us than Mom & Dad. Oh the memories we made though. :)

I'm still so moved by your tragedy Tulessa. God Bless you.
 
  • #143
FWIW, I have considered that she killed Caylee by accident, then panicked and duct taped her to for the kidnapping lie.

I don't think she duct taped Caylee's nose and mouth to prevent fluids from leaking. I could be wrong though. But why not duct tape her other orifices, too? Decomp begins within minutes of death, and the duct tape was applied before decomp began and she only duct taped Caylee's airways, so I'm very iffy on KC applying it to prevent fluids. but it's KC, so who knows...
 
  • #144
I agree with all of your points. I have followed A LOT of the evidence, but not every single piece, admittedly. I always wanted to wait for the trial so I could hear it all at once (despite how long it's probably going to take). I think Dr. G. is awesome, and if she's convinced that the duct tape was placed over Caylee's airways BEFORE death, then yes, I will definitely think it was premeditated.

And yeah, I definitely see why Casey wouldn't want to leave Caylee with her parents. That would make her feel even more out of the family and jealous. But in some of the pictures she just looks so happy with Caylee.

I just wish Casey would say that, yes, she killed her daughter, this is why, and she regrets it. :( Unfortunately, she seems to be completely lacking in remorse.

I think the jury would have a lot more forgiveness if she could try and explain what happened. But all this pool/GA/RK crap is just annoying. There is no way I could ever do this and lie about it. If I ever snapped and this occurred, I would feel terrible, immediately admit what happened, and beg for forgiveness and probably suffer every day for the rest of my life. Of course, I don't even eat meat or kill bugs, so I can't imagine taking a life, much less that of my own child. I have a feeling that when I become a mother, I'm going to be like my mom ("You touch my child, you die") who loves me more than anything in her world.
 
  • #145
I'm still so moved by your tragedy Tulessa. God Bless you.

I am, too. I've also suffered tragedy in my family, and I think that compounds my inability to understand how people can be so evil.
 
  • #146
I'm still so moved by your tragedy Tulessa. God Bless you.

Just be here for me in October. I have told EVERYBODY about my second family here. The days I feel like I can't go on, is when I log into to WS. ;)
 
  • #147
FWIW, I have considered that she killed Caylee by accident, then panicked and duct taped her to for the kidnapping lie.

I don't think she duct taped Caylee's nose and mouth to prevent fluids from leaking. I could be wrong though. But why not duct tape her other orifices, too? Decomp begins within minutes of death, and the duct tape was applied before decomp began and she only duct taped Caylee's airways, so I'm very iffy on KC applying it to prevent fluids. but it's KC, so who knows...

That's true. That does change my thought process somewhat, but I'm still feeling left disturbed by this whole thing. :( How anyone could hurt a child.
 
  • #148
Just be here for me in October. I have told EVERYBODY about my second family here. The days I feel like I can't go on, is when I log into to WS. ;)

My aunt/godmother was murdered when she was 9 months pregnant. Murderer was never caught. I definitely empathize and will do whatever I can to help. I hope it brings you some measure of peace and closure when it's over.
 
  • #149
FWIW, I have considered that she killed Caylee by accident, then panicked and duct taped her to for the kidnapping lie.

I don't think she duct taped Caylee's nose and mouth to prevent fluids from leaking. I could be wrong though. But why not duct tape her other orifices, too? Decomp begins within minutes of death, and the duct tape was applied before decomp began and she only duct taped Caylee's airways, so I'm very iffy on KC applying it to prevent fluids. but it's KC, so who knows...

Exactly! And that's what i conveyed to DH. I dunno he said.:floorlaugh:

Just doesn't add up.
 
  • #150
I agree with all of your points. I have followed A LOT of the evidence, but not every single piece, admittedly. I always wanted to wait for the trial so I could hear it all at once (despite how long it's probably going to take). I think Dr. G. is awesome, and if she's convinced that the duct tape was placed over Caylee's airways BEFORE death, then yes, I will definitely think it was premeditated.

And yeah, I definitely see why Casey wouldn't want to leave Caylee with her parents. That would make her feel even more out of the family and jealous. But in some of the pictures she just looks so happy with Caylee.

I just wish Casey would say that, yes, she killed her daughter, this is why, and she regrets it. :( Unfortunately, she seems to be completely lacking in remorse.

I think the jury would have a lot more forgiveness if she could try and explain what happened. But all this pool/GA/RK crap is just annoying. There is no way I could ever do this and lie about it. If I ever snapped and this occurred, I would feel terrible, immediately admit what happened, and beg for forgiveness and probably suffer every day for the rest of my life. Of course, I don't even eat meat or kill bugs, so I can't imagine taking a life, much less that of my own child. I have a feeling that when I become a mother, I'm going to be like my mom ("You touch my child, you die") who loves me more than anything in her world.
Same here!! I was vegetarian for years, and have been vegan now for about a month. I respect that others have different values than me, and I don't think someone is evil for using animal products.

Anyway, decomp begins within minutes of death, so if KC applied the duct tape prior to decomp, then she had to think and work at lighting speed, IMO.
 
  • #151
Ok Hubby says my pillow is singing comeeeee to meeeee. So I'm off for the night to watch NG. See you guys in the morning! :)
 
  • #152
Same here!! I was vegetarian for years, and have been vegan now for about a month. I respect that others have different values than me, and I don't think someone is evil for using animal products.

Anyway, decomp begins within minutes of death, so if KC applied the duct tape prior to decomp, then she had to think and work at lighting speed, IMO.

Me either to your first paragraph, and that's true to your second.
 
  • #153
missdiva, your question is one that bothers me as well. there are photos of casey breastfeeding caylee. as a breastfeeding mom, i don't even *begin* to understand the pathway from making an obviously nurturing choice to murder. i too have wondered so many times if this could have been an accident and she was just too sociopathic to even begin to understand how to deal with it appropriately.

remember that we have never really seen her in a psychotic rage. many people who met my dad believed he was the kindest, sweetest, most charming man, and probably believed he was a great parent. but he saved those rages for us. i guess if you're a rageful narcissist, it's easy to bully your child because they have no choice but to love you anyway. casey reminds me a lot like my dad, and i just believe we can't judge her as being a loving mom incapable of premeditated murder simply because she's a mom with tons of pictures of a happy caylee. my dad loved us, bought us everything we could possibly want, and we have so many happy family pictures... many people had no idea, would've never suspected it. just because she seems like one of those people you wouldn't suspect doesn't mean she isn't capable of all kinds of terrible things out of the eyes of her community.

the heart sticker over the duct tape is the hardest for me to stomach. that is flat-out sinister.

my opinion is that casey had a hard time bonding w/caylee from the beginning. she didn't announce the pregnancy till it was nearly over (although at 7 months it is easy to feel that pregnancy will NEVER be over... lol). she was not happy about caylee being handed to cindy after the birth or "mom"-ing her at a birthday party. i find it very likely that she, as a sociopath unable to bond, blamed her mother for this lack of a bond, one that her mother makes clear she has with her children.

i don't think she really figured out wtf to do with the pregnancy and the baby, and right after having a baby life kind of just... HAPPENS. you realize how little control you have, and often you spend the entire day just taking care of baby's needs and trying to keep up with your own. caylee as a baby must have been very rewarding and fun once she started smiling - like a baby doll to casey, whose mom was there for all the difficult times completely prepared to give the child her love, time, and energy. and she was a trophy, and people complimented her parenting skills, marveled/sympathized with the young single mom trying so hard, etc.

but then i think the rollercoaster of new mom-hood kinda slowed and the ways in which she had folded caylee into her life were no longer as easy to manage. she turned from this adorable trophy baby into a walking, talking kid who just GOT IN THE WAY. and almost-3 is not an easy age. (even those of us who are bonded VERY well with their children & are terrific parents can feel driven up the wall at that age. :innocent:) they give you way more attitude. they have their own ideas and plans and don't necessarily like yours. they're harder to distract because they remember things more easily. they figure out what your buttons are and push them because they are learning how to test boundaries, and the best way to test limits is to push them repeatedly. they are just discovering emotion & how to express emotions and are extremely melodramatic. even the most amazing parents i've known have difficulty with the toddler stage. they can be a lot more trying at that age, and you need a lot of love and patience to help guide them through it.

since most of us are normal people with the ability to bond, we're able to get through the difficult times and get back to the rewarding times, hopefully teaching our children lessons about safely expressing emotions and how to communicate with the people around them. but for casey, i think caylee stopped being all cute and cuddly, she started becoming more and more of a problem and needed more advanced parenting beyond feed/change/put to bed, and casey really didn't find it rewarding or worth her time anymore. it was getting in the way of the life she wanted. and it wasn't worth it to her to cede guardianship to her mother and basically say "you won, you were right, here she is."

it is hard to believe that anyone could be like that, especially a mother killing her child that at some point you want to believe she loved and cherished, somehow. but unfortunately people are like that. for casey, people's lives aren't meaningful to her except for what they provide for her. she thinks that she's bad-🤬🤬🤬 enough to cover up the murder of her child she assumed no one else really cares about since she didn't. IMO even now she has this demeanor like "WHY are you guys still ON this? i am so over this already!"

I can clearly see that many of us find it difficult, if not impossible, to believe in pure evil. Susan Smith surely loved her children at one time. Something happened that made their lives less valuable than hers. Maybe she never loved them and "played" at being a good mommy. IDK, but evil does exist. It is so hard to believe that mothers can be unloving. That narcissists exist on this level of sociapathy is pretty frightening. I don't believe that sociopaths are unable to love, because I have watched the "Iceman" documentaries where he describes the horrific things he did to people as a mob hit man.......I mean the most horrific stuff I've ever heard of.........and yet he loved his children very much. So crazy is just crazy and sometimes we simply can't understand it.

I'm leaning really hard toward intentional on this one now..............I've run out of excuses or logical, heck, even illogical explanations for ICA...........

ITA with this.
 
  • #154
I don't want to get jeered off the board - but I've always had a sneaky feeling that at the beginning - Baez was so fin love with himself being in such demand, that he's snagged a high profile case that was all over the news with this cute little chick that he ignored the obvious and actually believed Casey's story. In two years we've seen his attitude towards Casey freeze over step by step, as more and more evidence came to light. She is "his girl" no more - he almost acts like he can hardly stand to be around her. If he wasn't such a full of himself buffoon, I might feel a little bit sorry for him for being so suckered.

If JB hadn't spent all those months doing what he accuses GA of, he might have thought of a defense theory.
 
  • #155
I want to see what is not seen too. Why do you think we haven't seen anything from the defense that helps Casey?

They have not presented their case and called their witnesses yet.
 
  • #156
Do you mean like before or after death, when it was used? Or who used it? Or why it was used? I had those questions at first.
I have heard that the prosecution says they can prove the duct tape was put on pre-mortum. I am not inclined to believe they can when the medical examiner has stated that the COD is unknown. Is there a way to tell the duct tape was placed on before death if all they recovered of Caylee's body was bones and hair?
 
  • #157
I heard JB seem to characterize the "flurry of calls" on 6/16 around 4pm as ICA "reaching out for help" because of a potential accident. I disagree. Google maps say it should take 20 min to drive from CA/GA's house to TL's house. The pings show that by 4:18 she's already well on her way there. These calls began as she was leaving the house!! This means she wasn't standing around calling people asking what to do about Caylee. Wherever she put Caylee prior to leaving, whether it was the sandbox, playhouse, trunk, etc....she had already done that, and grabbed her purse, keys, laptop, cellphone, etc. Granted there is some ambiguity about location re: pings as you can be within a few miles of the tower. Still it would seem the absolute latest she could have pulled out of her driveway would have been around 4:15 to ping at that next tower at 4:18. She starts her flurry of calls at 4:10.

Link to 6/16 ping map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...8592,-81.309128&spn=0.265966,0.43396&t=h&z=11
 
  • #158
For clarity, the "flurry" of calls:

4:10pm - Call to George at work - 34 seconds

4:11 to 4:13 - Casey attempts to phone Cindy four times.

4:14 - Call to George - 98 seconds

4:18 - Cell phone pings show she departed from the A's or that area and is near Chickasaw - up until this time all pings were at towers near the Anthony home

4:18 - text from Tony

4:19 - One minute call to Tony.

4:21 - Two calls to Jesse. Second call 75 seconds.

4:25 - Another attempt to call Cindy
 
  • #159
I've heard so many reasons for the duct tape. Keeping her from leaking. Keeping her from making any noise. Setting up a kidnapping scenario....
IMO, there is no other reason for duct tape over a child's mouth and nose besides intentional murder.
 
  • #160
Absolutely no doubt in my mind, Premeditated, cold and calculated. It's not a coincidence that she was looking up neck breaking, chloroform, shovel etc. and by golly Caylee happened upon an unfortunate pool accident 2-3 months later?
JB is using the pool theory to explain away the chloroform in the trunk. :banghead:
 

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