Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #11 *Arrest*

[303gmf]

Someone's weight should not be relevant, nor discussed. IMO

Erin is discussing her weight, we’re chiming in as is our right

Food and cooking is a fairly important part of her case here

 

[Warshawski]

5m ago02.56 BST
Erin Patterson recalls first conflict about money with estranged husband Simon

Barrister Colin Mandy SC then asks Patterson about messages between her and Simon in November 2022.

In the messages, previously shown to the court, Patterson tells Simon she has applied for child support payments.

The court previously heard that when Patterson sent Simon an an anaesthetist fee for their son the same month, he said said he had been advised by the government department overseeing child support payments not to provide money for things like that.

“I understood what he was trying to communicate but I didn’t think what he was saying was right,” Patterson says.

She recalls how she was feeling.


I was hurt.


We’d never had a conflict with money that I could remember before that.

Australia mushroom trial live: Erin Patterson ‘regrets’ telling Facebook friends she was ‘sick of’ parents-in-law Gail and Don, court hears

Victorian woman, 50, has pleaded not guilty to three charges of murder and one of attempted murder over a fatal 2023 beef wellington lunch. Follow live

www.theguardian.com

Just my opinion, but it’s occurred to me that, despite their separation, Erin wanted them to still operate their lives as a married couple. … just not live together.
I.e. he be at her beck & call; her be involved still in all his family occasions; he ignore his mandated Child Support obligations etc.
I don’t profess to be an expert in the matter, however she’s possibly lucky that SP accepted the suggested 50/50 division of their assets. .. I wonder if that agreement has been legally documented/ signed off on. They say they separated in 2015 but it appears to have only been declared officially /to the Gov in the more recent troublemaking Tax Return.
I’m also not convinced that Erin would pass the means test to get the family tax benefit as a single parent.

Just my thoughts.

 

[JBowie]

I don’t profess to be an expert in the matter, however she’s possibly lucky that SP accepted the suggested 50/50 division of their assets. .. I wonder if that agreement has been legally documented/ signed off on

[bbm]

If so, my understanding is that it would need to be in this form:

Financial or property: Financial agreements​

If you and your former partner are able to agree on arrangements for your finances and property, you can formalise these arrangements outside of court by entering into a Financial Agreement.

What is a Financial Agreement?​

A Financial Agreement is a contract between two or more parties made under Part VIIIA (for marriages) or Division 4 of Part VIIIAB (for de facto relationships) of the Family Law Act 1975.

A Financial Agreement, if it binding, ousts the Court’s jurisdiction in relation to financial or property proceedings between the parties generally, or in relation to specific issues. In other words, a Financial Agreement, if prepared and entered into properly, can be a way to ‘contract out’ of court proceedings.

https://www.fcfcoa.gov.au/fl/fp/financial-agreements

 

[katydid23]

45 minutes ago - 04:28 PMMax Corstorphan

‘Pungent’ mushrooms from Asian grocer put in container and left in cupboard ahead of fatal lunch​

Ahead of the fatal lunch that Ms Patterson accepts included death cap mushrooms, the accused told the court that she had purchased some “pungent” mushrooms from an Asian grocer in Melbourne that she had intended to use in another meal.

“I was going to use them the day I bought them, but they were very pungent,” she said.

She told the court she decided not to use them that day, instead putting them in a container that she placed in the cupboard of her Leongatha home.

Right---they 'smelled funny' according to her earlier statement. So she didn't use them in the pasta recipe she purchased them for.

But she kept them anyway and put them in Tupperware in the cupboard?

Ms Patterson went on to confirm that those “pungent” mushrooms ended up in the cupboard alongside other dehydrated mushrooms ahead of the fatal lunch.

She said she would add mushrooms that she had dehydrated into containers she “already had going” with other dehydrated mushrooms.

So now we hear that she had lots of 'experience' with foraging and serving mushrooms. And she remembers that a few days after she bought her dehydrator, [which was a few days after she saw those Death Cap articles in iNaturalist]---she was hiking with her kids in Korumburra and she sees some OAK TREES and notices some wild mushrooms by the Oaks.

And she picks them and brings them home to dehydrate and powder them. AND SHE ADDS THEM TO THE DRIED ASIAN ONES THAT SMELLED FUNNY.

So Erin was so confident in her research about safe mushroom foraging but she never knew that death caps grew near Oak Trees? Isn't that common knowledge?


But somehow Erin ended up with a Tupperware container of TWO kinds of dried mushrooms. Asian ones that smelled funny and foraged ones from some Oak trees.

How can anyone ever find poor Erin to blame if no one can know which mushrooms were the toxic ones? I guess we have to let her walk?

I’m just going to get real with you guys; if I purchased mushrooms and I got them out to cook them and they smelled so pungent that I didn’t feel comfortable putting them in a pasta dish, I would throw them out.

I wouldn’t store them. I wouldn’t put them back in a container. I wouldn’t put them in the pantry, I would throw them in the bin.

I also don’t forage. I was always taught not to touch wild mushrooms and not to eat them. I’m sensible like that.

I’m also going to say that one of the worst decisions Ms Patterson has made during this trial is to take the stand. All my opinion only.

 

[JBowie]

How can anyone ever find poor Erin to blame if no one can know which mushrooms were the toxic ones? I guess we have to let her walk?

I wish the prosecution could conduct direct examination of her on this and the multitude of other inconsistencies in her stories.

 

[mamamama9873]

I’m not sure about that. Erin’s ‘challenging / traumatising’ life story would resonate with some people, and IMO she is banking on having at least one such person still on the Jury panel after the final ballot.

It’s not really a challenging/ traumatising life story at all IMO

Yes maybe her birth family wasn’t close to her and she carried some trauma from it but she found a loving man who still supported her after their break up (yet not to the extend she wanted to), she had two healthy children that she was close to. She was left A LOT of money that gave her complete financial freedom.

She could have chosen such a different path for her life past the separation but didn’t.

IMO it’s completely on her what she has chosen to make of it and there is nothing challenging/ traumatising about her adult life

 

[iamshadow21]

… and she’s built up a tolerance to death caps? Sowing seeds of doubt?

Tho having difficulty picturing a person sauté-ing one mushroom and tasting a small bite and then waiting to get sick. especially a person who worries about cancer & illness all the time

Stating this again, since it's come up a few times today from a few different posters: there is no safe minimum amount of death caps, and you cannot build up an immunity to them. It is not that kind of toxin.

MOO

 

[dalsglen]

Hurt, hurt, hurt. I'm tempted to spend my afternoon going back and counting how many times she has said this.

 

[katydid23]

So far nothing I have heard makes me think she is an awful person. It just makes her human.
Just a human being with all our complexities and imperfections.
I'm not interested in throwing stones.

Maybe some on the jury might have the same opinion.
I would not be surprised.

I think it was awful that she lied to the Doctors and the Public Health Official, and denied she had foraged any mushrooms. It was cruel and may have cost her loved ones their lives. She could have told the hospital about that immediately but she lied and lied some more.

 

[Ellery84]

I think it was awful that she lied to the Doctors and the Public Health Official, and denied she had foraged any mushrooms. It was cruel and cost her loved ones their lives. She could have told the hospital about that immediately but she lied and lied some more.

Good point and does she have insight into the impact of her alleged post-offence behaviour?

Whilst Erin was sucking on fentanyl and buying coffee and dim sums from Koo Wee Rup, her children’s relatives were facing organised failure and a painful and horrible death.

 

[seekingjustice**]

I'm starting to see the direction this story is likely heading. She's laying the groundwork by talking about her low self-esteem due to her weight, plans for gastric reduction surgery, and secret bulimia, something she claims no one knew about. That part is probably going to be used to explain why she didn't get as sick as the others because she secretly purged after the meal.

Looks like she will claim she used some of the Tupperware container of dehydrated mushroom mix on the beef Wellingtons, not knowing it contained death cap mushrooms.

But I see some big problems with her story. She threw out the dehydrator and denied ever owning one or foraging for mushrooms when questioned by the police - those actions don’t exactly scream innocence!

She also fed the leftover beef to her kids, claiming she scraped off the mushrooms. But death cap toxins are incredibly potent and can't just be "scraped off, they soak into the food. The kids would have been exposed and incredibly unwell if not worse!

And, if she truly suffers from extreme health anxiety, as she claims, why would she not be in a panic and rush them to the hospital asap? That part makes absolutely no sense to me.

Then there's the issue of her cancer lie. Maybe she’ll try to spin that as the result of health anxiety and self-diagnosis via Google, but it’s a much bigger leap to explain fabricated hospital visits and test results. That's not anxiety that's plain old deliberate deception.

At this point, she's had a couple of years to work on her version of events. It’ll be very interesting to see how she tries to explain away these clear inconsistencies, especially when her story doesn’t match her behavior.

All IMO.

 

[JBowie]

Looks like she will claim she used some of the Tupperware container of dehydrated mushroom mix on the beef Wellingtons, not knowing it contained death cap mushrooms.

[bbm]

Not knowing? How?

An agreed fact in the trial is that the meals she served contained death caps. So, where does she expect us and the jury to believe they came from if she didn't forage them herself? Not Woolworths. Not an Asian grocer.

Is she claiming that she 'accidentally' foraged death caps from one of the only places they grow in VIC after having searched the internet to find the location?

 

[Warshawski]

It might be leading up to saying she hardly ate any of the lunch, because she has emotional issues with food and this was a stressful occasion.

Of that she’s no longer bulimic but lives on laxatives, hence she keeps a handy supply of corks for when she needs to go out .

 

[Ellery84]

I'm starting to see the direction this story is likely heading. She's laying the groundwork by talking about her low self-esteem due to her weight, plans for gastric reduction surgery, and secret bulimia, something she claims no one knew about. That part is probably going to be used to explain why she didn't get as sick as the others because she secretly purged after the meal.

I knew <well I was pretty sure> she had bulimia because she had those marks on her fingers “Russell’s Sign,” a pattern of calluses on the knuckles or back of the hand due to frequent purging (via self-induced vomiting) over a long period of time.

At the time when I noticed this, I spoke to some women who had gone through bulimia and they recognised the marks on Erin’s hands and knew what they were, and I had discussed those stills of the media videos that showed Erin’s hands and fingers with them, and the women who had the personal knowledge of bulimia and other sleuths and I went back and forth analysing them and discussing what they meant.

Photos can be found in this article, with the marks circled and written about:

Eerie detail in photo of mushroom cook that no one noticed until now

A strange detail on mushroom chef Erin Patterson's hands shows two injuries to the middle finger of her right hand, a cut below the knuckle and an abrasion on the finger's nail bed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Article Credit: Candace Sutton / DMA

The article states
“The more serious-looking injury is situated below the knuckle of her middle right finger.”

“The second injury is around the region of the nail bed of the same finger.”


I know Erin would think no one else knew she had bulimia, and divided this to the court as some type of hidden secret, but once she became infamous, people online started to pay attention to everything she said or did, and in particular the way she looked.

How does the bulimia tie in with the case?

Well, I want to say that Erin was obsessed with mushrooms and also that obsessed with food in general, and her many diet book purchases speak to this obsession, as does the fact that the allegedly texted her friend that she “puts mushrooms in everything.” <Paraphrased.>

I’ve read that many people with eating disorders are actually obsessed with food and that forms a part of their illness.

I think the food dehydrator was just another arm
or tool of her unhealthy obsession with food, of her alleged eating disorder.

But what if the alleged eating disorder grew legs and she started wanting to control or poison what other people ate?

Now it’s no longer bulimia: It’s an eating disorder on steroids. IMO.

 

[Warshawski]

There seems to always be ONE doctor who will operate - usually specialists. My sister was told she needed surgery on her knee, but she shopped around to find other opinions and her knee has been fixed with physio and strapping and rehab, avoiding surgery.

My niece had tonsillitis once and the surgeon insisted on an operation, but the parents waited, and she never had tonsillitis again.

It seems like Erin might be the opposite.

There are some cut-happy doctors out there. It's not necessarily incompetence, it's just that they are trained that surgical intervention is king. It is not always necessary, though.

I'm frankly VERY surprised that a surgeon would operate on a pubescent teens knee, given how much their bones rapidly grow in that age group, unless of course, it was a car accident or trauma based injury which was essential.

It was possibly keyhole for a cartilage trim IMO

 

[mamamama9873]

I knew <well I was pretty sure> she had bulimia because she had those marks on her fingers “Russell’s Sign,” a pattern of calluses on the knuckles or back of the hand due to frequent purging (via self-induced vomiting) over a long period of time.

At the time when I noticed this, I spoke to some women who had gone through bulimia and they recognised the marks on Erin’s hands and knew what they were, and I had discussed those stills of the media videos that showed Erin’s hands and fingers with them, and the women who had the personal knowledge of bulimia and other sleuths and I went back and forth analysing them and discussing what they meant.

Photos can be found in this article, with the marks circled and written about:

Eerie detail in photo of mushroom cook that no one noticed until now

A strange detail on mushroom chef Erin Patterson's hands shows two injuries to the middle finger of her right hand, a cut below the knuckle and an abrasion on the finger's nail bed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Article Credit: Candace Sutton / DMA

I know Erin would think no one else knew she had bulimia but once she became infamous, people online started to pay attention to everything she said or did, and in particular the way she looked.

How does the bulimia tie in with the case?

Oh ok, wow. I thought the bulimia was a whole BS story her defense lawyers came up with and coached her in

 

[Old Soul]

I knew <well I was pretty sure> she had bulimia because she had those marks on her fingers “Russell’s Sign,” a pattern of calluses on the knuckles or back of the hand due to frequent purging (via self-induced vomiting) over a long period of time.

At the time when I noticed this, I spoke to some women who had gone through bulimia and they recognised the marks on Erin’s hands and knew what they were, and I had discussed those stills of the media videos that showed Erin’s hands and fingers with them, and the women who had the personal knowledge of bulimia and other sleuths and I went back and forth analysing them and discussing what they meant.

Photos can be found in this article, with the marks circled and written about:

Eerie detail in photo of mushroom cook that no one noticed until now

A strange detail on mushroom chef Erin Patterson's hands shows two injuries to the middle finger of her right hand, a cut below the knuckle and an abrasion on the finger's nail bed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Article Credit: Candace Sutton / DMA

I know Erin would think no one else knew she had bulimia but once she became infamous, people online started to pay attention to everything she said or did, and in particular the way she looked.

How does the bulimia tie in with the case?

I suspect the bulimia will be used by the defence to explain why Erin didn’t get as sick as her guests. I imagine they will probably suggest that she vomited immediately after the lunch and therefore less of the toxins were digested.

 

[Ellery84]

Oh ok, wow. I thought the bulimia was a whole BS story her defense lawyers came up with and coached her in

No I don’t think so.

 

[JBowie]

Oh ok, wow. I thought the bulimia was a whole BS story her defense lawyers came up with and coached her in

Inventing something like that and having your client say it under oath would be highly unethical behaviour and would lead to severe sanctions against lawyers caught doing it.

In R v Momodou [2005] 2 All ER 571; [2005] 1 WLR 3442, Judge LJ, in delivering the judgment of the Court of Appeal of England and Wales, said: There is a dramatic distinction between witness training or coaching, and witness familiarisation. Training or coaching for witnesses in criminal proceedings (whether for prosecution or defence) is not permitted [bbm] -- Australian Solicitors' Conduct Rules

https://lawcouncil.au/publicassets/e219b6df-9ff7-ee11-9494-005056be13b5/ASCR%20Commentary.pdf

 

[mamamama9873]

Inventing something like that and having your client say it under oath would be highly unethical behaviour and would lead to severe sanctions against lawyers caught doing it.

In R v Momodou [2005] 2 All ER 571; [2005] 1 WLR 3442, Judge LJ, in delivering the judgment of the Court of Appeal of England and Wales, said: There is a dramatic distinction between witness training or coaching, and witness familiarisation. Training or coaching for witnesses in criminal proceedings (whether for prosecution or defence) is not permitted [bbm] -- Australian Solicitors' Conduct Rules

https://lawcouncil.au/publicassets/e219b6df-9ff7-ee11-9494-005056be13b5/ASCR%20Commentary.pdf

that’s great to know. With all the preluding of hospital phobia, imagined diseases and now the bulimia it seems like the lawyers crafted Erin’s story to lay groundwork to make up excuse over excuses for all the question marks in this case