Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #13 *Arrest*

[tillytatler]

That might hold water if only a couple of the wellingtons had the death caps in them. Instead, all of them but Erin's did.

MOO

This is a complete thought experiment, but: what if they didn't?

Technically Don's might not have, as we know he ate half of his wife's as well as his own.

I have noticed in testimony that Erin seemed to have a particularly close relationship with him and she has spoken repeatedly both on the stand and in the early interview by the car about how much her children loved him.

It could have been he was intended to be spared but things went awry when he decided to eat Gail's leftovers.

In that instance, could it explain Heather & Ian being invited - so that not ONLY Gail got sick, making things look less targeted on Gail?

It's a bit "out there" but technically plausible.

 

[Detechtive]

This is a complete thought experiment, but: what if they didn't?

Technically Don's might not have, as we know he ate half of his wife's as well as his own.

I have noticed in testimony that Erin seemed to have a particularly close relationship with him and she has spoken repeatedly both on the stand and in the early interview by the car about how much her children loved him.

It could have been he was intended to be spared but things went awry when he decided to eat Gail's leftovers.

In that instance, could it explain Heather & Ian being invited - so that not ONLY Gail got sick, making things look less targeted on Gail?

It's a bit "out there" but technically plausible.

Interesting theory, but the sole survivor mentioned that the plates were taken to the table by the women. If it was that targeted, Erin would have served them individually herself. IMO

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Why would she want to nurse them back to health? They would all know she poisoned them or that her food made them sick. That is nonsensical as a motive. They would be suspicious of her to the extreme and it would have caused more family divide.

Most murderers get caught. For a reason. They are stupid. They don't plan after the murders well.
But besides all that, it is incredibly difficult to get away with murder these days - with all of the technology available. Had it not been for internet banking and cctv, we probably wouldn't be here.

Murder isn't rational, ever.

I get that, but still. Trying to get away with murdering 1 person is very different from this. She would surely have known that even if she'd got away with the murders, that people would be angry with her and even suspect her. She was therefore doing it knowing that her life would be extremely negatively affected either way.

In the Florence Nightingale scenario, she has still got sick just not as sick as the rest. From her son's account, she was claiming diahorrea pretty early on. She probably anticipated that her Asian grocer line would just be accepted on a xenophobic level, after all who knows what bizarre stuff they sell and whether they are careful? As an aside, even guilty or not, I believe this is what she expected when she said about the Asian grocer. I don't buy the idea that she had some that she can't remember where she got them etc

We'll probably never know one way or another, but it doesn't seem likely that she just expected to cause the deaths of 4 people and suffer no adverse effects. She was interested in true crime, surely she knows how people think?

 

[Detechtive]

I get that, but still. Trying to get away with murdering 1 person is very different from this. She would surely have known that even if she'd got away with the murders, that people would be angry with her and even suspect her. She was therefore doing it knowing that her life would be extremely negatively affected either way.

In the Florence Nightingale scenario, she has still got sick just not as sick as the rest. From her son's account, she was claiming diahorrea pretty early on. She probably anticipated that her Asian grocer line would just be accepted on a xenophobic level, after all who knows what bizarre stuff they sell and whether they are careful? As an aside, even guilty or not, I believe this is what she expected when she said about the Asian grocer. I don't buy the idea that she had some that she can't remember where she got them etc

We'll probably never know one way or another, but it doesn't seem likely that she just expected to cause the deaths of 4 people and suffer no adverse effects. She was interested in true crime, surely she knows how people think?

There is no medical evidence that Erin was sick. Ergo, Erin was not sick. That is, Erin didn't consume any DeathCaps.

My theory is that Erin was living in an echo chamber. Her world was very small and she was obsessed with revenge, so therefore she had small mindedness - or myopia, if you will. Mix that with a good dose of arrogance and perhaps she's gotten away with poisoning before, and it's not hard to understand.

She would have known that the toxins leave the body within 48 hours and are undetectable, largely. I think she may have thought that those people would all go back to their homes and not get sick for a long time so there was distance between her and the event, and that they would think it is just gastro and not seek urgent medical attention. Maybe she underestimated the violence of this type of 'gastro' and didn't expect these outcomes or that anyone would think it was more than a sad case of stomach flu.

I don't think a rational brain can figure out what she was thinking prior, because it's inherently irrational to plan to kill someone in a civilised society. It is the most extreme act of antisocial behaviour, which the majority of people can't comprehend.

But I think we can see what she was thinking post-lunch. She seemed solely focused on self-preservation, IMO.

I mean, for all we know, Erin was living in a fantasy world of being a mad scientist and flirting with natures poisons to observe the outcomes of her wacky experiments on her human lab rats. Maybe she was just bored and wanted some action in her dreary life. She is still guilty of murder in this hypothetical. IMO

 

[MrJ]

Just want Tuesday to come already!

IMO it wasn't accidental. Remember she was putting powdered mushrooms in her kids' food. I think it was building up and her rage simmered until she made the decision to use that method to dispatch of her estranged husband and his family. Then when he cancelled she was filled with rage but still decided to carry it out to inflict maximum damage on him. allegedly and IMO

 

[Lisa4]

I believe she was originally paying for it herself, but it has recently changed to Legal aid funding.
IMO

I see. Well it wouldn't surprise me. But will we ever know...

 

[Doesitmakesense]

With the lack of new info over the weekend, it gives you time to reflect on things that often you don't have time to.

As I've said elsewhere, there are a couple of good pieces of information that create doubt in Erin's guilt, and whilst we can come up with reasons for them, they aren't the most probable.

I actually thought of another today. If Erin planned to kill the 4/5 guests, what exactly did she think would happen next is she succeeded? It doesn't seem likely that she would think that everybody would just see it as a tragic accident and there would be no investigation. Also, she would surely know that it would look really bad on her as the one who cooked the meal and that would affect her life forever regardless of guilt.

This seriously leads me to consider whether that was her true intention. Again, I wonder whether she underestimated the effect it would have and either thought it might only kill one or thought they would become ill and she could be a Florence Nightingale figure and nurse them back to health.

If guilty, she was either extremely careless, stupid or arrogant in the extreme, or she didn't intend for them all to be affected as much as they were.

Definite food for thought.

Speculation Only, if you consider the dropped allegations regarding SP prior health struggles and go with the allegations are true. It's not hard to jump to EP just got complacent after successfully avoiding any type of suspicious or investigation previously. And all the "panic" after the lunch was due to never expecting the medical staff to work out what was going on. Like the cause of SP prior health was never determined as far as we know.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

You do know atheists don't believe in the devil either right?

Good point! LOL

Perhaps she simply believed in the ancient craft of poisoning people you don't like!?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Speculation Only, if you consider the dropped allegations regarding SP prior health struggles and go with the allegations are true. It's not hard to jump to EP just got complacent after successfully avoiding any type of suspicious or investigation previously. And all the "panic" after the lunch was due to never expecting the medical staff to work out what was going on. Like the cause of SP prior health was never determined as far as we know.

BBM for focus

It is true that the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour

In the past, EP has by her own free admission, stealthily put powdered dehydrated mushrooms into her children's brownies. She did not see that as problematic in any way or involving informed consent and wrote on a semi-public forum about it.

In the past, EP has maybe attempted to injure or kill SP several times, he thinks. His ailments are consistent with some form of poisoning albeit not DC mushrooms. If it were true that would be three incidents of poisoning as well as covertly adding things into children's foods.

In this case, EP has already admitted something to do with foraged mushrooms, the dehydrator, and trying to cover up the situation. As she has seemingly injured and killed several people, this could simply be the very straightforward escalation of a covert poisoner into an overt murderer, the sort of thing that crime analysts mention - the uptick in perpetrating harm?

JMO MOO
That's all we know of but there's possibly other incidents. It seems like escalation of

 

[brisbanemum]

It's odd that as an atheist, she married religious Simon, who came from a deeply religious family...

Maybe she thought (correctly it seems so far) that he would never divorce her because of his beliefs? That would be perfect for a controlling spouse. MOO.

 

[brisbanemum]

There is no medical evidence that Erin was sick. Ergo, Erin was not sick. That is, Erin didn't consume any DeathCaps.

My theory is that Erin was living in an echo chamber. Her world was very small and she was obsessed with revenge, so therefore she had small mindedness - or myopia, if you will. Mix that with a good dose of arrogance and perhaps she's gotten away with poisoning before, and it's not hard to understand.

She would have known that the toxins leave the body within 48 hours and are undetectable, largely. I think she may have thought that those people would all go back to their homes and not get sick for a long time so there was distance between her and the event, and that they would think it is just gastro and not seek urgent medical attention. Maybe she underestimated the violence of this type of 'gastro' and didn't expect these outcomes or that anyone would think it was more than a sad case of stomach flu.

I don't think a rational brain can figure out what she was thinking prior, because it's inherently irrational to plan to kill someone in a civilised society. It is the most extreme act of antisocial behaviour, which the majority of people can't comprehend.

But I think we can see what she was thinking post-lunch. She seemed solely focused on self-preservation, IMO.

I mean, for all we know, Erin was living in a fantasy world of being a mad scientist and flirting with natures poisons to observe the outcomes of her wacky experiments on her human lab rats. Maybe she was just bored and wanted some action in her dreary life. She is still guilty of murder in this hypothetical. IMO

I agree. I think she was banking on that 48 hours. Ironically using the mushrooms in the beef wellington was her undoing though I think, firstly because her victims sought medical attention so quickly (within 48 hours) and secondly because the doctors were smart enough to work out mushrooms = possible death caps. If she had just sprinkled the powder in some muffins for example () the doctors may never have suspected death caps. All MOO.

 

[Lisa4]

I get that, but still. Trying to get away with murdering 1 person is very different from this. She would surely have known that even if she'd got away with the murders, that people would be angry with her and even suspect her. She was therefore doing it knowing that her life would be extremely negatively affected either way.

In the Florence Nightingale scenario, she has still got sick just not as sick as the rest. From her son's account, she was claiming diahorrea pretty early on. She probably anticipated that her Asian grocer line would just be accepted on a xenophobic level, after all who knows what bizarre stuff they sell and whether they are careful? As an aside, even guilty or not, I believe this is what she expected when she said about the Asian grocer. I don't buy the idea that she had some that she can't remember where she got them etc

We'll probably never know one way or another, but it doesn't seem likely that she just expected to cause the deaths of 4 people and suffer no adverse effects. She was interested in true crime, surely she knows how people think?

IMO she was 100% confident that deathcaps would never come up as a valid possibility, and she was probably nearly right but for Don eating 1.5 Wellingtons, which got the whole ball rolling. See below.

Why DCs "wouldn't" have been thought of:

1. Guests would just think it was gastro and wouldn't attend a hospital.

• Wilkinson couple had indeed put it down to bad gastro and were sleeping it off.
• Patterson couple - Don ate 1.5 wellingtons (EP didn't foresee).
• He was so very ill that it started the whole ball rolling: they called ambulance and Simon. It was Simon who insisted Wilkinsons attend hospital.
• When the Wilkinsons arrived, that ramped the situation up even more.

2. Season appeared over for deathcaps

• Last sighting pre-dinner on iNaturalist was 9 Jun.
• Lunch 7 weeks later at end July.
• EDIT to add: even the chief toxicologist held back from ordering the correct treatment, as he wasnt convinced it was deathcaps.

Who knows how it would have unfolded if Don hadn't eaten extra and become so terribly ill so early? The others were sleeping it off, believing it to be bad gastro...

 

[Lisa4]

Also, the Wilkinsons would have usually attended Korumburra Hospital but it was full, so they got sent over to the same hospital Pattersons already were at.

Another unforeseen part of the snowball that was starting to gather speed?

IMO

 

[tillytatler]

Here's an interesting academic poster on the psychology behind why poisoners poison (if anyone can find an open access version of the full paper, I'd be interested to read it!) https://pure.royalholloway.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/25153320/DFP_2015_Eryna_T_Poster.pdf

This bit in particular sounds like our girl Erin to a tee (BBM)

The systematic review of the literature and cohort case files, do suggest characteristics and typologies that allude to a prototype poisoner.
• A clear interest or employment within the
healthcare profession, in which personality
dispositions (e.g. attachments and reversed value systems) from life events increase the risk of criminal behaviours.
• The main objective of poisoning is secondary gain or to feel a sense of power and superiority over their victim.
• In addition to this, themes of suspected or diagnosed mental illness that in turn influence interpersonal relationships and appropriate emotional regulation have been recognised.
 The perpetrator is usually forensically aware and willing to go to lengths to remain
undetected, and will also feign assistance with law enforcement to remain viewed as a
‘model citizen'.

The interest in working in the medical profession is very interesting as we know that Erin was training to be a nurse (despite her hatred of hospitals!)
The easiest place for a serial poisoner to operate in order to do the widest harm. It's possible she (if the prosecutions case is correct) would have gone on to do much worse.

Much as when a poisoner is caught it is rarely the first time they've attempted poisoning, it's reasonable to assume it also wouldn't be their last, given the chance to continue.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Maybe she thought (correctly it seems so far) that he would never divorce her because of his beliefs? That would be perfect for a controlling spouse. MOO.

Well she might have been right there. They are still legally married...

 

[Deleted member 363451]

There is no medical evidence that Erin was sick. Ergo, Erin was not sick. That is, Erin didn't consume any DeathCaps.

My theory is that Erin was living in an echo chamber. Her world was very small and she was obsessed with revenge, so therefore she had small mindedness - or myopia, if you will. Mix that with a good dose of arrogance and perhaps she's gotten away with poisoning before, and it's not hard to understand.

She would have known that the toxins leave the body within 48 hours and are undetectable, largely. I think she may have thought that those people would all go back to their homes and not get sick for a long time so there was distance between her and the event, and that they would think it is just gastro and not seek urgent medical attention. Maybe she underestimated the violence of this type of 'gastro' and didn't expect these outcomes or that anyone would think it was more than a sad case of stomach flu.

I don't think a rational brain can figure out what she was thinking prior, because it's inherently irrational to plan to kill someone in a civilised society. It is the most extreme act of antisocial behaviour, which the majority of people can't comprehend.

But I think we can see what she was thinking post-lunch. She seemed solely focused on self-preservation, IMO.

I mean, for all we know, Erin was living in a fantasy world of being a mad scientist and flirting with natures poisons to observe the outcomes of her wacky experiments on her human lab rats. Maybe she was just bored and wanted some action in her dreary life. She is still guilty of murder in this hypothetical. IMO

Death caps are nor detectable after 48 hours, but what about the damage to the liver and kidneys? It would have to be something very poisonous to do that.

 

[Megnut]

It's also abusive IMO. Imagine learning what your mother is accused of and then finding out she's been putting mushrooms in your food.

I would think it would make eating traumatic.

Can't. Trust. Food.

There's no sorry to repair that. Whether she's found guilty or not, she misled them. That's a lifelong breach, forever tied to food.

Forget the poisoning, she took her disordered relationship with life and food and created one for two young people, who now get to work that out.

Who does that?????

And if she's found guilty, she put everyone at risk... and two young people are forever without those grandparents and supportive adults, at her hand.

Sentenced to a lifetime of therapy.

JMO

 

[mamamama9873]

IMO she was 100% confident that deathcaps would never come up as a valid possibility, and she was probably nearly right but for Don eating 1.5 Wellingtons, which got the whole ball rolling. See below.

Why DCs "wouldn't" have been thought of:

1. Guests would just think it was gastro and wouldn't attend a hospital.

• Wilkinson couple had indeed put it down to bad gastro and were sleeping it off.
• Patterson couple - Don ate 1.5 wellingtons (EP didn't foresee).
• He was so very ill that it started the whole ball rolling: they called ambulance and Simon. It was Simon who insisted Wilkinsons attend hospital.
• When the Wilkinsons arrived, that ramped the situation up even more.

2. Season appeared over for deathcaps

• Last sighting pre-dinner on iNaturalist was 9 Jun.
• Lunch 7 weeks later at end July.

Who knows how it would have unfolded if Don hadn't eaten extra and become so terribly ill so early? The others were sleeping it off, believing it to be bad gastro...

Very good points.
Very lucky that it unfolded how it did and that the medical staff was quick thinking.

I agree if the lunch comprised of a different mushroom free meal (with sprinkled dc powder), the doctors might have not suspected mushroom poisoning as quickly. Her choice of meal lead them there quicker.

It’s still mind boggling to me that she thought 4 lunch guests (or even 5 if SP had attended) from 2 different households could attend and pass away mysteriously and she wouldn’t get suspected

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Inside accused mushroom killer Erin Patterson's testimony | A Current Affair​

 

[Lisa4]

Very lucky that it unfolded how it did and that the medical staff was quick thinking.

Sadly not quick enough for three of them.

Note, even the chief toxicologist wasn't sure. They only started the deathcap treatment when liver test results had worsened so quickly. And it only saved Ian.

I agree if the lunch comprised of a different mushroom free meal (with sprinkled dc powder), the doctors might have not suspected mushroom poisoning as quickly. Her choice of meal lead them there quicker.

Yes. Overconfident?!

It’s still mind boggling to me that she thought 4 lunch guests (or even 5 if SP had attended) from 2 different households could attend and pass away mysteriously and she wouldn’t get suspected

It does utterly beggar belief! But I'd guess their friends were similar to them and to have such an awful suspicion would be unthinkable.

Severe gastro + old age complications would have carried the day. (and Simon's previous sicknesses contributing to his own susceptibility).

Her meal wasnt intended to have a single finger pointed at it ever.

One thought. Did she only say she was having symptoms after she heard others were? When did she first hear of someone being ill?