Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #14 *Arrest*

[TootsieFootsie]

Police probe after wild mushroom deaths

A major police probe has been launched into the deaths of three elderly people who died after eating wild and poisonous mushrooms.

au.lifestyle.yahoo.com

One man still fighting for life.

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[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

IMPORTANT

Effective with Erin Patterson's arrest, sub judice is in effect and will be until a trial has concluded. For anyone not familiar with the judicial principle of sub judice, please review the following.

WS is based in the USA but we do try to manage the various discussions to comply with laws of other countries.

As this trial is in Australia, the case is under sub judice so please avoid anything that violates the following principles:

Basically anything that may prejudice the accused’s right to a fair trial
Any suggestion, opinion, or direct accusation that the accused is either guilty OR innocent
(i.e. the accused cannot be called "the killer"; use "the accused", "the alleged killer", or "the defendant")
A defendant’s previous history of any offences is off limits
Scandalizing the court (disparaging judges, lawyers, any officer of the Court) is off limits
Broadcasting anything about proceedings which happen in the jury's absence is off limits
Any non compliance with an Order of the court is off limits

Note in the event of an Appeal subsequent to verdict:
Appeals are usually heard by senior judges who are not likely to be influenced by the media, therefore responsible comment is usually considered acceptable once a trial has concluded, regardless of if there is going to be an appeal.

Posts that are determined to constitute a violation of sub judice will be removed. To avoid this, please review the following from the Victoria Law Reform Commission and post accordingly:

10. Sub judice contempt: restricting the publication of prejudicial information

 

[Neet_Mc]

Wonder if maybe Erin was thinking “I’ll give you something to pray for..” and a bit of

Not sure than anyone meets Erin’s standards of intelligence, hygiene, affection …etc

I do wonder if her mother was a robot, was her father also a robot? My opinion is Erin finds fault in everyone.

Dog poo bag of used toilet paper placed inside her handbag suggests her standards of hygiene are questionable!

 

[iridized]

Not that she did, but if anyone else considers making mushroom burgers instead of meat burgers, it takes about 2 to 2 1/2 pounds (close to 1 KG) to make 6 to 8. And they are absolutely delicious just using regular button mushrooms.

• 4 tablespoons olive oil, divided
• 2 pounds fresh mushrooms
• 3/4 medium onion, finely chopped
• 5 cloves garlic, minced
• 1 teaspoon salt
• 3/4 teaspoon black pepper
• 3/4 teaspoon dried oregano
• 1 cup dry bread crumbs
• 1 cup rolled oats
• 3/4 cup freshly shredded Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese
• 3 large eggs, beaten

1. Heat 3 tablespoons oil in a large skillet over medium heat. Add mushrooms, onion, garlic, salt, pepper, and oregano; cook and stir until mushrooms have released their juices and the liquid has evaporated, about 10 minutes. Remove from the heat.
   
   
   
2. Transfer mushrooms to a cutting board and clean the skillet.
   
   
   
3. Chop mushrooms into small chunks, then transfer to a large bowl. Mix in bread crumbs and oats, and season with salt and pepper as needed. Stir in Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese, then eggs; let stand until bread crumbs have absorbed any excess liquid, about 15 minutes. Use moist hands to form mixture, 1/4 cup at a time, into patties.
   
   
   
4. Heat remaining oil in the skillet over medium heat. Pan-fry patties in the hot skillet until golden brown and cooked through, 2 1/2 to 3 minutes per side.

 

[Megnut]

Things that existed but EP rid herself of

Pulverized death cap mushrooms
Dehydrator
Grey plates
Mushroom books
Cellphone A


Things that never existed

Asian mushrooms
Tupperware of mixed mushrooms
Stage VI ovarian cancer
Gastric bypass surgery
Liposuction


JMO

 

[Neet_Mc]

So she was going to tell her family that she had ovarian cancer as a cover to hide that she was having liposuction? Yah, sure....

Liposuction wouldn’t require the rehab gastric bypass would to necessitate for the wrap around care and assistance she was trying to put in place with the false premise of the lunch.

 

[Megnut]

Weight gain is multifold and common as air.

IMO an Erin can't accept the imperfection about her so the cause is outside of herself.

Going on a diet, starting an exercise routine -- not dramatic, hardly newsworthy.

But a cancer? Now that gets people's attention, sympathy. People mobilize.

I cannot tell how sincere she is about gastric bypass, if she was fantasizing about rapid weight loss or whether that was 100% invention because Ian lived, and the lunch topic became public.

Were there twelve BWs?

Thought exercise:

Six luncheoners, if Simon appears.

Six diners, one falls ill.

Six diners, three fall ill.

Six diners, five fall ill.

Five diners, four fall ill.

Five diners, two fall ill.

Had the source of the toxicity not been identified, what would have happened next?

Was EP planning to garner public sympathy for rapid weightloss? With no one left to challenge her version of the facts. Think of the sympathy she could have garnered online. For a pretend cancer she didn't really have.

Simon's instinct not to intend was well-founded.

How awful he must feel with the fallout for the innocent relatives who paid the price.

Not his fault but natural human emotion.

Have we heard a single word of regret from EP? Sorry that three people died, regardless of how? I see more passion in splitting definitions and mincing words.

JMO

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Would it have been possible for the Prosecution to bring into the Courtroom Death cap mushrooms to show how much they smell as they get older?

Or to cook an individual Beef Wellington with Death cap mushrooms to show how the toxins contaminate the whole meal whether the pastry/mushroom is scrapped off it or not?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Dr Rogers: Christine McKenzie had posted on 18 April, 2023, that she saw death cap mushrooms growing under some oak trees at Loch. That iNaturalist post had four photos of the death cap mushrooms that she’d posted. I suggest that you read the Christine McKenzie post. Agree or disagree?

Ms Patterson: Disagree.

Dr Rogers: I suggest that you drove to Loch from your house in Leongatha to specifically find death cap mushrooms on 28th April. Agree, or disagree?

Ms Patterson: Disagree.

Dr Rogers: And I suggest that you found some.

Ms Patterson: Disagree.

Dr Rogers: And I suggest that within hours of finding them you drove to the Hartley Wells and bought a dehydrator.

Ms Patterson: I did buy that that day, yes

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/crime/mushroom-murder-trial-prosecutors-intensify-case-as-crossexamination-of-erin-patterson-continues-in-regional-victoria/news-story/0459c4c06ddc6e7f6f91a8b57820744c

 

[Lisa4]

Exactly right.

I keep seeing people on other forums say Erin is stupid and that concerns me because if people think of her through that lense, it’s much easier to think that she couldn’t possibly premeditate such a thing.

I have no doubt if Erin was hypothetically planning what she is accused of, that she would know every single thing about the topic. The thing she is not good at is people and predicting how they will behave, which is her undoing here, IMO.

If it wasn’t for Simon taking the inlaws to hospital and the hospital quickly cottoning on that this was Death Cap poisoning, it’s possible we would not be here.

I’m sure she didn’t think her friends would betray her (in her mind) and share private photos she shared. Or disclosing to the police that she hid powdered mushrooms in the kids food.

I’m sure she didn’t think police would be looking at her bank statements days after the lunch and seeing her dispose of the dehydrator, etc. I doubt they would have even started looking at her so soon if it wasn’t for her refusing to answer the questions initially. IMO

Ive never thought she was stupid. Can see how some may find it hard to believe she's not. Just a thought, her use of the word discombobulated, would that clue people in or not?


To me, it was her own behaviour in leaving the hospital that caused cogs to start turning.

And it got the police involved so quickly too.

I do think she genuinely panicked there. But it was a huge mistep. (If she is guilty.)

*I'm not even sure panicked is the right emotion. Trying to pin it down in my mind...

 

[Montrealaise]

Not that she did, but if anyone else considers making mushroom burgers instead of meat burgers, it takes about 2 to 2 1/2 pounds (close to 1 KG) to make 6 to 8. And they are absolutely delicious just using regular button mushrooms.

• 4 tablespoons olive oil, divided
• 2 pounds fresh mushrooms
• 3/4 medium onion, finely chopped
• 5 cloves garlic, minced
• 1 teaspoon salt
• 3/4 teaspoon black pepper
• 3/4 teaspoon dried oregano
• 1 cup dry bread crumbs
• 1 cup rolled oats
• 3/4 cup freshly shredded Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese
• 3 large eggs, beaten

1. Heat 3 tablespoons oil in a large skillet over medium heat. Add mushrooms, onion, garlic, salt, pepper, and oregano; cook and stir until mushrooms have released their juices and the liquid has evaporated, about 10 minutes. Remove from the heat.
   
   
   
2. Transfer mushrooms to a cutting board and clean the skillet.
   
   
   
3. Chop mushrooms into small chunks, then transfer to a large bowl. Mix in bread crumbs and oats, and season with salt and pepper as needed. Stir in Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese, then eggs; let stand until bread crumbs have absorbed any excess liquid, about 15 minutes. Use moist hands to form mixture, 1/4 cup at a time, into patties.
   
   
   
4. Heat remaining oil in the skillet over medium heat. Pan-fry patties in the hot skillet until golden brown and cooked through, 2 1/2 to 3 minutes per side.

Sounds good but at this point, I don't think anybody following the trial closely is inclined to follow mushroom recipes.

 

[Montrealaise]

To me, it was her own behaviour in leaving the hospital that caused cogs to start turning.

And it got the police involved so quickly too.

I do think she genuinely panicked there. But it was a huge mistep. (If she is guilty.)

That and the fact that she refused to bring in her children for assessment even though the doctors felt they could be in danger. By that time, her lunch guests were in a coma. It shows IMO that she knew very well her kids weren't in danger because they hadn't had the poisoned leftover from the lunch.

 

[Spectrix]

I think everyone is complex and has various sides but the panicked version isn’t a real part of hers, IMO. It is emotional manipulation and tantrum like behaviour in my opinion, but take that with a grain of salt, I’m no psychologist.

My question, @Detechtive
Erin appears to have been overconfident in her alleged murder plot, overconfident in her own lies to cover her tracks, and overconfident in her lies to cover her earlier lies.

She has been described as arrogant and cocky on the stand.

In your opinion, can Erin comprehend just how badly she's doing on cross, or does she think the jury are buying her lies?

 

[Lisa4]

Dog poo bag of used toilet paper placed inside her handbag

I think this could be added to the below

Things that never existed

Asian mushrooms
Tupperware of mixed mushrooms
Stage VI ovarian cancer
Gastric bypass surgery
Liposuction


JMO

 

[Lisa4]

To me, it was her own behaviour in leaving the hospital that caused cogs to start turning.

And it got the police involved so quickly too.

I do think she genuinely panicked there. But it was a huge mistep. (If she is guilty.)

*I'm not even sure panicked is the right emotion. Trying to pin it down in my mind...

*possibly alarmed is a better word.

Alarmed but quickly able to sum up and carry out the steps she needed to take.

Still was too hasty in leaving the dehydrator booklet behind... and somehow there were still some traces of DCs in the binned leftovers, only 2 out of 7 test tubes. (All IMO IF she is guilty).

 

[Megnut]

Ive never thought she was stupid. Can see how some may find it hard to believe she's not. Just a thought, her use of the word discombobulated, would that clue people in or not?


To me, it was her own behaviour in leaving the hospital that caused cogs to start turning.

And it got the police involved so quickly too.

I do think she genuinely panicked there. But it was a huge mistep. (If she is guilty.)

*I'm not even sure panicked is the right emotion. Trying to pin it down in my mind...

Consciousness of guilt...

 

[katydid23]

Ive never thought she was stupid. Can see how some may find it hard to believe she's not. Just a thought, her use of the word discombobulated, would that clue people in or not?


To me, it was her own behaviour in leaving the hospital that caused cogs to start turning.

Yes.

And it got the police involved so quickly too.

I do think she genuinely panicked there. But it was a huge mistep. (If she is guilty.)

It was a huge misstep, even if she is innocent. IMO

*I'm not even sure panicked is the right emotion. Trying to pin it down in my mind...

Yah, I'm not sure it was actually 'panic' either. It sounded more like she was intentional, oppositional, determined to get some distance so she could finish up some important tasks.

I think that when she heard the doctor say 'suspected mushroom poisoning' her wheels started turning and she knew she needed to get out of there fast so she could tie up some loose ends.

Maybe she was more shocked and surprised than panicked?

 

[katydid23]

That and the fact that she refused to bring in her children for assessment even though the doctors felt they could be in danger. By that time, her lunch guests were in a coma. It shows IMO that she knew very well her kids weren't in danger because they hadn't had the poisoned leftover from the lunch.

Yes, being so resistant to bringing in the children was a big red flag, imo.

Her answer to the nurses, doctors and to Dr R, that " they didn't eat the mushrooms so they are fine" just doesn't make sense. Wouldn't a mother be so worried and concerned that their children had eaten SOME of that poisoned meal that they'd bring them in for an examination, just to be certain?

The kids had eaten the leftovers one day after the lunch guests had eaten the meal so it was possible they were about to get sick. And the 4 lunch guests were severely ill. It's hard to understand why EP was so stubborn and resistant to just having the kids checked out.

Especially if EP was being truthful about her own 'illness symptoms' she claimed she was experiencing.

EVEN IF she had accidentally served foraged death cap mushrooms, she'd still be frightened and worried that her children had accidentally ingested some when they ate the meat.

She supposedly thought the mushrooms were safe and edible when she scraped off the mushrooms for her kid's leftovers. So how carefully did she really do that scraping? How was she instantly so certain that her kids had not ingested any death cap residue from meat that was cooked WITH the death caps paste on top of it?

 

[MaxDecimus13]

I've said for some time that I think there is a chance that Erin is innocent, but that she has lied to try and make her story sound better, and it is these lies that will ultimately send her down.

For instance, she knows she has put foraged mushrooms in and realises early on that these are DC mushrooms in, but lies to make it look like she got them unknowingly from an Asian grocer and therefore it wasnt really her fault. An obvious lie.

After the Asian grocer story can't be sustained, she tries to make it sound like she probably put them in in a way that would mean she didn't realise until a few days later and therefore she wasn't misleading anyone at the time. Doesn't sound believable and some evidence makes it seem unlikely.

She realises it looks bad that only she has not developed severe symptoms, so she lies that the kids had leftovers and didn't get symptoms either. This ends up looking like an obvious lie too.

She has been caught out trying to pretend she has cancer for sympathy or manipulation, and out of embarrassment concocts a story about a gastric band. This again ends up being found out as a lie.

The jury end up seeing the lies and seeing guilt in the sheer amount of them when it is just a disastrous attempt to make herself look better.

The alternative of course is that she is lying to cover her actual guilt, which is it hard to argue against when you see the sheer amount of unlikely scenarios.

 

[MrJ]

Woohoo new thread!

I wonder what will happen in the hearing today. I'll be busy at the time the hearing starts unfortunately but I'll be back sometime before the afternoon. Someone please post the ABC live blog updates in my absence.