Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[Megnut]

Every murderer has a motive - the fact that the motive is not obvious, or doesn't make sense to us, doesn't mean there is no motive.

Note to Mr. Mandy

People kill people all the time without a reasonable motive.

But thank you for exaggerating how great EP's relationship with everyone was because it called attention to how not great it was, EP herself stirring the cauldron pot.

And all the time people who kill people wind up getting caught because they, often in trying to not get caught, do the very things that catch them up. Even the smart ones.

JMO

 

[dalsglen]

Something that I've found really interesting throughout this trial is that Erin has said nothing that hints at any kind of remorse. Whether accident or intentional, three people who she claimed to love died because of her, another almost died and is going to have ongoing health concerns due to his liver transplant.

Wouldn't you at least pretend that you cared?
I don't think Erin's behaviour is going to be lost on the good judge when it comes to sentencing.

Absolutely this. My father in law has been accused of a horrific crime, one in which I would like the opportunity to feed him death caps (hate mushrooms so don't worry you won't hear about the crazy Scottish lady). We were VERY close but i haven't spoken a word to him in over 3 years, never even asked my husband how he is yet if he was diagnosed with terminal cancer or some such illness today I would check in with my husband I guess cause it's still his dad.

 

[Spectrix]

Every murderer has a motive - the fact that the motive is not obvious, or doesn't make sense to us, doesn't mean there is no motive.

Remember that Colin Mandy is claiming Erin's innocence. She couldn't possibly have any reason to kill her beloved family the she loved so dearly.

 

[JBowie]

She scrunches up her face as though she's crying, but I don't see any tears.

That's because there aren't any. Fake, faker, fakest.

 

[Montrealaise]

Remember that Colin Mandy is claiming Erin's innocence. She couldn't possibly have any reason to kill her beloved family the she loved so dearly.

The family she called "that f*cking family" in her SM posts?

 

[Spectrix]

She scrunches up her face as though she's crying, but I don't see any tears.

That's because there aren't any. Fake, faker, fakest.

I feel like if Erin is found guilty, we might see some actual tears... for the first time, possibly.... ever.

 

[Spectrix]

The family she called "that f*cking family" in her SM posts?

Yes that's right, the family that she's "done with".

 

[Sarahlou]

I feel like if Erin is found guilty, we might see some actual tears... for the first time, possibly.... ever.

I tend to think she'll just be stony faced. Or angry that nobody believed her lies.

 

[Spectrix]

I can't remember now whether it was Heather or Gail who contributed the orange cake to the lunch. But sometimes I think of those 2 sisters, who died so awfully and prematurely, and think of one of them making that cake. An orange cake is quite a lot of trouble to make, because you have to grate all that orange skin. I personally can't be bothered. But it was made carefully and lovingly for a "special occasion", and look where it and its cook ended up. So tragic and sad. And almost unbelievably, apparently not one word of concern, pity, sympathy, remorse, sorrow, regret, apology, etc from Erin. Not one.

I'm usually reasonable at remaining impartial during the cases I follow, but I'm way past that point now. I had to stop reading about Colin Mandy's defence closing because it was making me feel both ill and angry.

In my opinion, Erin's actions and inactions paint a clear picture: She's a danger to society.
Not just (allegedly) plotting to kill five people, who all cared about her and showed her so much respect and love that she clearly didn't deserve.
But the way that she actively obstructed a health investigation, a police investigation, the way she stood up lied about it all on the stand, and in the process suggested that every single witness in that case were in fact lying themselves. Even her own two children!

Nothing is going to bring those kind folk back, and nothing is going to fill the void that's been left in the hearts and minds of Ian, Simon, the two kids, the rest of the family, and the community.
But at least if Erin is incarcerated, she'll be in position of being constantly watched and her ability to hurt others will be dramatically reduced. If she has to be in isolation for her own protection, even better. She won't be able to hurt other inmates. I really hope that justice is served.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Do you believe that she wanted to make her relatives sick, or what? What is your actual theory?

I'm not certain what happened by any stretch. The vast majority of people are going off 2 theories:

1) it was an accident

2) she planned to kill all 4 and probably 5 had Simon attended

I find issues with both of these that are extremely difficult to overcome. The top one requires a considerable amount of misfortune on the part of EP with a significant degree of lying.

I've explained many times my issues with number 2. It seems extremely illogical for a number of reasons nonemoreso than the lack of planning after the murder. I argue that there is a 3rd possibility:

3) she wanted to poison them but underestimated the effect it would have

The reason I find this appealing is because it covers a lot more of the problems that 1 and 2 have. It explains the lack of planning, the lack of motive etc whilst still explaining all of the lies and coincidences etc. I've also indicated that most of us suspect she actually did poison Simon a year earlier.

Of course like any theory there are issues. However, I find it easier to believe that EP underestimated the effect of DC than that she killed 4 people based on some pretty mild grievances and then didn't think she would be suspect number 1.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Just to clarify the judge's bit - I think the summing up is as you say pretty much a going over of the facts and instructing the jury what they can do, and that's usually very helpful to us as well as the jury.

I don't know how you can think that in order to find EP guilty the jury would have to depart from what they are technically allowed to do by law. In my opinion there is a much closer correspondence between the law and common sense in this kind of case than you think.

But the judges's part I referred to as often containing eye-opening bits for us (followers not in the courtroom) is the sentencing remarks - given of course only if the accused is found guilty.

I'll clarify what I mean and maybe I'm wrong. It seems to me from the defence that they are arguing that the prosecution has say failed to prove contaminated meat would make you sick and therefore you cannot presume that it would. I suspect that the jury will consider it anyway even though an expert hasn't proved it.

There was a lot of talk about speculation, and I find it hard to believe that jurors in their mind at least won't be speculating in their heads which will affect their decisions.

 

[Salah11]

I just hope justice is served. She was constantly lied which has been shown time and time again.

 

[Megnut]

I'm not certain what happened by any stretch. The vast majority of people are going off 2 theories:

1) it was an accident

2) she planned to kill all 4 and probably 5 had Simon attended

I find issues with both of these that are extremely difficult to overcome. The top one requires a considerable amount of misfortune on the part of EP with a significant degree of lying.

I've explained many times my issues with number 2. It seems extremely illogical for a number of reasons nonemoreso than the lack of planning after the murder. I argue that there is a 3rd possibility:

3) she wanted to poison them but underestimated the effect it would have

The reason I find this appealing is because it covers a lot more of the problems that 1 and 2 have. It explains the lack of planning, the lack of motive etc whilst still explaining all of the lies and coincidences etc. I've also indicated that most of us suspect she actually did poison Simon a year earlier.

Of course like any theory there are issues. However, I find it easier to believe that EP underestimated the effect of DC than that she killed 4 people based on some pretty mild grievances and then didn't think she would be suspect number 1.

I see your point.

But I think, if this was intentional and she's found guilty as charged, she had full confidence in the product.

Here's how she may have planned it. And I feel authorized to speculate because Mr. Mandy wants the jury to consider how a reasonable person would have murdered better, or such like. His logic hurt my brain, but I'm going to lay out what I think may have been marinating in EP's brain.

Six prepared BWs, one untainted.

Even though SP refused to come, I really think she planned to coerce him into dinner, with the children. He would get the fifth BW, the children plain beef.

Everyone but the children would get sick, and EP would match them symptom to symptom. Covid, flu, a touch of food poisoning, everybody would take to bed and bathrooms, would experience an upswing of feeling better, then crash and pass away. They themselves would never even consider poisoning as EP too would mirror their experience. A little salmonella for everyone.

If MEs sought a cause of death, by autopsy, there'd be no detectable toxin. Invisible murder weapon.

She just had to cross the 48 hour mark.

But SP didn't budge. Didn't eat a BW, didn't get sick and was alert enough to direct the others straightaway to the hospital. Methinks that after his harrowing illness, he didn't mess around with bowel issues -- and sent his aging parents to the hospital. Which triggered scrutiny. And now EP has to present. Prior, she only would have needed to convince the children and SP that she was sick too but now the hospital staff was asking question that pedantic answers didn't pass.

She didn't have an after plan because she was confident in the 48 hours. Didn't think it through.

And then it became a scramble to pitch evidence, appear sick and stalllllllllll.

And here we are.

JMO

 

[ellyvantelli]

We're all entitled to our own opinions of course, but I can't see how she would have picked the Death Caps by accident. Whether she'd foraged before or not, she visited the iNaturalist website prior to the lunch and had specifically searched for 'Death Cap from Melbourne, Vic'.

Death Caps are greenish yellow on top and have white gills underneath. Even someone without any knowledge of mushrooms would know to avoid them. My brother and I both knew as young children not to pick any mushrooms that looked like Death Caps.

Further, she specifically went to 2 locations where Death Caps had been seen and had been posted on the website that she visited. She also bought a food dehydrator the next day before she went to those locations.

All of Erin Patterson's behaviour both before the lunch and afterwards points to her being guilty.

When I was growing up on a farm, my mother and I often went looking for mushrooms, and yes that was exactly what we called it! There was really no doubt of what was a mushroom. There were certainly no coloured versions, green, yellow, blue, whatever. A mushroom was white. The gills were pink, changing to brown as they grew and aged. Plus, what I don't recall being mentioned here, they smelled very strongly of mushrooms.

Remember that Colin Mandy is claiming Erin's innocence. She couldn't possibly have any reason to kill her beloved family the she loved so dearly.

I probably seem to be posting more about guilt than innocence [JMO], but this is why:

Forget all the before and after noise.

If this was an accidental poisoning, Erin added dried foraged Death Cap mushrooms she had mistakenly identified as, & believed to be, edible to the duxelles for the beef wellingtons.

The bit I can’t find a way to make sense of in this scenario is the smell.

Tom May gave evidence that he has dried DC mushrooms on several occasions and dehydrated DCs smell ‘unpleasant’, not musty, not pungent, unpleasant.

I can’t reconcile adding something that smells unpleasant to a special meal containing expensive ingredients being made for people you care about.
JMOO

Dried death cap mushrooms smell 'very unpleasant': mushroom expert​

By Judd Boaz​

Nanette Rogers SC is brief with her questioning.

Much of today and yesterday's discussion has centred around how death cap mushrooms look, but Dr Rogers introduces a new sense: smell.

"What can you say about the smell of death cap mushrooms as they age or dry?" Dr Rogers asks.

"When they're first collected there's no particular smell," Dr May says.

"I have dried death cap mushrooms on a number of occasions and I have found their smell to be very unpleasant."

Expert says Erin Patterson's medical files suggest she was ill — as it happened

 

[Moll]

I'll clarify what I mean and maybe I'm wrong. It seems to me from the defence that they are arguing that the prosecution has say failed to prove contaminated meat would make you sick and therefore you cannot presume that it would. I suspect that the jury will consider it anyway even though an expert hasn't proved it.

There was a lot of talk about speculation, and I find it hard to believe that jurors in their mind at least won't be speculating in their heads which will affect their decisions.

I agree, but don't think it's really 'speculation'. I think any jury has to measure an accused's story to some extent by what is generally considered normal behaviour, whatever Mr Mandy said. He himself appealed to common sense for his own interpretations. It's not contrary to law. If the judge thinks there's something in the prosecution case that hasn't been proved and could reasonably be interpreted differently he will say so.

 

[Megnut]

I'll clarify what I mean and maybe I'm wrong. It seems to me from the defence that they are arguing that the prosecution has say failed to prove contaminated meat would make you sick and therefore you cannot presume that it would. I suspect that the jury will consider it anyway even though an expert hasn't proved it.

There was a lot of talk about speculation, and I find it hard to believe that jurors in their mind at least won't be speculating in their heads which will affect their decisions.

No one needs an expert where common sense will stand. Who here would be willing to eat beef that had the DCs scraped off if it? No one is going to usher that chance. And no one believes EP took that chance either.

JMO

 

[MaxDecimus13]

This really stands out. She directly caused the death of 3 wonderful people (whether this was intentional or accidental) and put another and their whole families through a lot of trauma.
Where is the regret, the grief, the remorse?

I've wondered whether it actually makes the job of the jury easier.

Usually, it can imagine the chance of getting it wrong could cause people to be really cautious. In this case, the dependent has actually caused the deaths of 3 people and seriously hurt another.

 

[Spectrix]

1) it was an accident
2) she planned to kill all 4 and probably 5 had Simon attended

I've explained many times my issues with number 2. It seems extremely illogical for a number of reasons nonemoreso than the lack of planning after the murder. I argue that there is a 3rd possibility:

With respect, just because you cannot comprehend that Erin might have planned a murder that ultimately ended up in her being investigated and charged, does not make it any less likely.

Globally it is estimated that there are - on average - over 50 homicides per hour, every day, 365 days per year.
One would think that most of the people who commit those crimes think they're going to get away with it, right?
And some of them actually do.

Ms Patterson may have academic intelligence, but common sense? Not so much. She lacks insight into people, their behaviour and interpersonal relationships. She's both egotistical and arrogant. She overestimates her own abilities and underestimates the abilities of others.

IMO Erin planned to murder five people in a very unique and cunning way. They'd turn up, willingly eat their own murder weapons and then go away and die somewhere else from what would be suspected gastroenteritis or food poisoning that would not necessarily be linked back to her.
She faked her own symptoms in an attempt to blend in, but ultimately she was quite surprised when Simon whisked all of the victims away to hospital, and health authorities started asking her a lot of very difficult questions. She was horrified that they quickly figured out that Deathcaps were involved, despite her assurances that the mushrooms came from Woolworths (and later, from a non-existent Asian grocer).

She was even more horrified when the Police started investigating.

Erin thought she'd planned the perfect murder, and it was all going along just great, until it wasn't.
She probably thinks she's planned the perfect defence to her murder trial as well. And look how that's going for her?

3) she wanted to poison them but underestimated the effect it would have

The reason I find this appealing is because it covers a lot more of the problems that 1 and 2 have. It explains the lack of planning, the lack of motive etc whilst still explaining all of the lies and coincidences etc. I've also indicated that most of us suspect she actually did poison Simon a year earlier.

Again with this theory? Erin foraged enough Deathcaps to kill ten adults.
Deathcaps. The name in itself ought to be a pretty good clue. They make people dead.

Erin did her research.
She didn't underestimate how dead it would make them (10-30% dead I believe was your previous claim).
What she underestimated was the authorities' ability to figure out exactly what she'd done.

-

 

[Jake18]

I have missed the last 2 ABC podcasts. I have a lot of driving to do today - will the female reporter continue to be annoying or are they worth listening to?

England and India are playing a cricket test match and there’ll be podcasts for that as well, so there’s competition.

 

[Woolly]

If this was an accidental poisoning, Erin added dried foraged Death Cap mushrooms she had mistakenly identified as, & believed to be, edible to the duxelles for the beef wellingtons.

Rsbm

I agree. And not only did she add them, she blitzed them first. (Based on the evidence that death cap dna was found in the leftovers, but no visible death cap pieces.)

Leaving aside that I can’t think of any innocent reason to do that, the real point is that that contradicts her account of how the mushrooms came to be added (rehydrated and chopped). If she were innocent, why would she not say she had blitzed them?