Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[mamamama9873]

I know what you mean.

Her defense is basically OOPS MY BAD---accidentally poisoned my 3 in-laws.

But when she took the stand, instead of showing remorse and asking for mercy, she did the opposite.

She never really admitted to anything or apologised for anything. Her attorney says she admits to foraging and accidentally serving death caps.

But she never really took accountability. She masked that possibility in 'maybe it was the Asian mushrooms' ----maybe I added wild mushrooms in accidentally but don't really know....

Nowhere did she show sorrow or grief or remorse for such an egregious mistake.

Yes, really hard to fathom. Poor Ian, Simon and the families. Regardless of guilt, it is a direct result of Erin’s cooking that 3 people lost their lives! No acceptance or responsibility or any show of remorse or guilt

 

[Kemug]

I just looked this up and it seems Australia class 4+ murders in a single incident as mass murder.

So if Erin is found Guilty, does she get a lighter sentence because one of the victims survived?

 

[Way2Invested]

I thought I had read in on here somewhere, but can't find it. This article makes a mention of it.

Ex-husband of woman accused of killing three people with toxic mushrooms claims she tried to poison him

Erin Patterson was the only one who did not get ill after she served lunch to four family members - with three of them dead and a fourth fighting for their life in hospital.

news.sky.com

Mmmm, yes the poisoning suspicions (as related by 'a source close to the family') I've seen quoted a lot. I just can't find anywhere that he shared those suspicions with his GP.

 

[Kemug]

I’ve often wondered how her sister would describe their childhood / upbringing.

And is she following the trial? Surely she must be, she could hardly avoid it.

 

[mamamama9873]

And it's not ethical to say she did, before the jury hands down the verdict.

Regardless of the outcome of the verdict, she did cause the death of 3 people with her cooking!
If foraged, it’s highly unethical not to let lunch guests know about the fact that the meal contains foraged mushrooms so that they can decide for themselves whether they want to take the risk.

 

[Kemug]

And seemingly unstoppable? How many charges were withdrawn, three? Imagine (allegedly) breaking the law three times, and not even a peep. Nada. No accountability, nothing. You'd certainly keep the ball rolling....IMO
Or would the whole trial be enough to scare her into stopping?

Even if it did, I doubt it would make Simon feel any safer. MOO

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Did anyone just watch Piers Morgan Killer interview with former nurse Kimberly Saenz, who was convicted of murdering 5 of her dialysis patients by injecting them with bleach? She kept on doing it and she told Piers Morgan that she was convinced that she would be acquitted. They found searches on her computer "Can bleach be detected in dialysis patients lines?"

Don't anyone try to rationalise again why someone chooses to commit murder. They aren't normal. They aren't rational. They are thoroughly evil people and deserve the highest punishment available.

 

[Kemug]

I've wondered if on her trip to dump the dehydrator, she went to another area of the facility (perhaps one not monitored by CCTV?) to throw out the plates plates used for the meal.

That could very likely have happened. The one place where (broken) plates wouldn't look odd. And probably shoved underneath anyway.

 

[Kemug]

Or the some of the meat from the leftovers? Although that’s her in cover up mode, and I don’t she necessarily was at that pont.

I agree though. And it’s inconceivable that anyone would dispose of poo-stained tissues and then browse food options without washing their hands.

This might sound cruel and I don’t mean it to be: does anyone believe that a 111kg woman could successfully swat, to do a poo, effectively wipe herself in the same position and get none of the mess on her white trousers? And not even feel the need for a better wipe/clean up in the toilets?

I agree, plus at that weight she wouldnt be able to stand up again very easily, IMO.

 

[Kemug]

Magda Subanski. I don't think she would be well enough.

Well, she wouldn't have to do anything particularly athletic!

 

[Kemug]

He allegedly told his GP about his concerns. The penny dropped, and I think that's why he acted so quickly, making sure everyone got to hospital, imo.

It's so sad that 3 good people died, but 1 survived thanks to Simon's quick actions.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

IMO
Those 4-5 people, some of them, or all … EP perceived them as obstacles or problems that she needed to eliminate.
IMO she has MH condition which has gone undiagnosed for a long time, and now at hormonal changes related to her age, symptoms are escalating /changing leading to disordered thinking, delusions, psychosis. She is entirely responsible, there’s no doubt.

[the death wall at old house, we’ve no idea who drew all of the pictures … but it reminded me of posts a dear friend was posting on Facebook at age 49 … before she took her own life. It was October, many friends thought the tombstones and gloulish images she posted were Halloween related. But it was her own dark thoughts she was posting. But not replying to messages. She was not properly diagnosed, given wrong meds and should have been inpatient. I had no idea the link between female hormones and bi-polar, and BPD. If woman has never been diagnosed and not under good medical care things can go very wrong at peri/menopause. My friend had not been diagnosed, but her brother had challenging bi-polar, as first degree relative she was at risk for these MH challlenges at perimenopause]

 

[Warshawski]

Yes, 'reasonable doubt' not 'beyond a shadow of doubt.' Is it 'reasonable' that she accidentally picked death caps, turned them into powder, saved them for months and then randomly served them to her in-laws that she was beefing with, the only time the 4 of ever ate there, and neither she, her kids or her dog accidentally consumed any?

This ^^^

I’m going to lay things out as I see it (and I apologise in advance for its length)

For a Jury to reach a Guilty verdict in a criminal offence, there are specific ‘elements’ of which they must be satisfied have been proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Re the Charge of Murder, it’s said the accused has cause the victim’s death while intending to kill or cause really serious injury, or being reckless in regards to that human life.

The onus is on the Prosecution to prove the following elements:

One – the accused caused the victims’ death.
IMO it’s already been acknowledged by EP / her defence that she cooked the meal that caused the death of 3 people & also killed a 4th.
It’s been proven the victims died / became ver6 seriously if from Death Cap mushroom toxin
It’s been proven that the meal EP cooked & served them contained Death Cap mushroom tox8ns.

Two – the accused’s acts were conscious, voluntary and deliberate.
EP was fully conscious ( i.e. she was not sleep walking etc) both when she invited these people to lunch, when she cooked the meal, when she served them the food and when she watched them eat the meal
EP voluntarily invited these people lunch, cooked them the meal, served them and watched them eat the meal (i.e. she was doing this under her own will, she was not being forced / threatened by another to do so, nor was she in some sort of rare mental state where her mind lost control of her actions )
The term "deliberate" excludes accidental acts. Also for the act to be ‘deliberate’ the accused must have voluntary & conscious control over their bodily actions.
* EP admits to cooking mushrooms, making a mixture of ‘proven / identified’ button mushrooms + undetected Asian mushrooms
* She was unable to advise where said Asian mushrooms were obtained

Three – that at the time the accused did the acts that caused the victims’ death, s/he intended to kill them or cause them really serious injury

IMO it’s at this point the state of EP’s mind comes into consideration, and her intention may be deduced from her actions & behaviour ( what she said & did, along with what she didn’t do or say) before, at the time of, and after the alleged offence.
* we saw her hostile expletive laden comments from late 2022 about her in-laws & husband
* we saw ‘f**ck em; I’m over this sh*t; f***ing family: I want nothing to do with them’
* we know she searched information on Death Cap mushrooms
* we were given compelling telecoms data that her phone indicated a journey to, and time spent in Death Cap mushroom areas at Death Cap mushroom ‘harvest time’
* we saw photos taken by EP of mushrooms on her scales - a renowned mushroom expert identified these mushrooms as being Death Cap ( 99% from a photo, clearer in the flesh )
* we know she purchased a brand new dehydrator on the afternoon coinciding with one of heavily suggested trips
* we know EP powdered mushrooms as she told her online friends that she had fed her kids brownies laced with powdered mushrooms ( because they didn’t like mushrooms)
* we know she wasn’t in the habit of having her in-laws over to dine ( Heather & Ian had never been invited previously )
* we know she lied to mother-in-law Gail about having tests on her elbow
* we know she issued the lunch invitation under the guise of needing to discuss a serious medical condition with them
* we know she also invited Simon, and didn’t easily accept him declining to attend
* we know she didn’t want the children at the lunch / house - she told them she had adult stuff to discuss
* we know from Ian ( the only survivor of that lunch) that EP told them she had Cancer - which was a lie
* we know from Ian that she served individual Beef Wellingtons
* we know from Ian that EP ate from a different colour plate to which the other 3 guests ate from
* we know Heather mentioned the different coloured plate on the way to hospital
* we know EP showed no concern for her lunch guests when told they were ill in hospital on Sunday morning
* we know she provided no help for them / no help to the many health officials who were trying to isolate the cause of their ill health and their concerns that it may be due to toxic mushrooms
* we are confident (from the knowledge we have of how Death Cap mushroom poisoning presents) that the victims’ symptoms presented in accordance with the published timeframes
* we know EP professed to starting to feel ill many hours before the victims started to become ill
* we know she told her children the meal she fed them Sunday night was leftovers from Sunday lunch - despite the fact her lunch guests were in hospital
* we know EP’s reported symptoms were extremely mild in comparison to her guests
* we know she discharged herself from hospital against medical advice
* we know the Dr struggled to get her to bring the children in for testing, threatening to call police
* we know she said the children didn’t eat mushrooms as she scraped them off
* we know the children said it was only steak, potatoes & beans - no gravy etc. imo it’s reasonable to think that ‘scraped off’ mushroom duxelles will have been visible to the children eating the meal.
* we know EP’s medical tests showed no evidence of Death Cap mushroom poisoning ** imo there’s reasonable doubt that she had any legitimate illness
* we know the children were not ill
* we know the meal contained mushrooms - the mycologist viewed leftover under microscope and could see mushrooms that she identified as only being the type of field mushrooms commonly found in the supermarket
* we know EP purchased said button mushrooms from Woolworths
* we know EP testified to using button mushrooms from Woolworths
* we know EP testified to also using rehydrated mushrooms from the unidentified Asian grocer
* we know that no other mushrooms other than the ‘Woolworths’ mushrooms were visible in the leftovers viewed by the mycologist
* we know the meal contained Death Cap mushroom toxins - identified by a new test available to forensic toxicologists.
* we know that EP powdered mushrooms
** IMO it’s reasonable to consider that the Death Cap mushrooms went into the meal in powdered form.
* we know EP continued to lie to medical professionals when asked if she foraged mushrooms
* we know EP lied to Police when asked if she foraged mushrooms ‘No’; ‘Never’, she added.
* we know witnesses testified that she had indicated being a keen forager of mushrooms
* we know witnesses testified as to her interest in mushrooms & her library of books on mushrooms ( not found by police I believe, but she gave some weird response to the Prosecutor that she had boxes of books in the garage that weren’t unpacked then !!)
* we know her children indicated they had not seen her pick mushrooms
* were the witnesses credible
* were the children remembering accurately
* did she forage when children were not around
* we know EP lied to police when asked if she owned a dehydrator
* we know she quickly dumped the dehydrator
* we know that dehydrator contained traces of Death Cap mushroom toxin
* we know she swapped SIM cards and did factory resets on her phone before and after handing to police
* we know she didn’t hand over her main phone ( phone A)
* we know she did that deliberately because she testified that ‘they didn’t ask for it’
* we know she didn’t attend the funeral of the victims
* we know she lied on the stand about weight loss surgery / liposuction - when her appointment was with a dermatologist.

When EP eventually admitted to foraging mushrooms ( only at the start of the trial) :
* we heard from her that she never picked Death Cap mushrooms
* we heard from her that she dehydrated the foraged mushrooms
* we heard from her that she put these dehydrated mushrooms in a Tupperware container with the previously purchased ‘pungent smelling’ mushrooms purchased from the Asian grocer somewhere.
* we heard from her that she made individual Beef Wellington which she served with mashed potatoes, beans & packet gravy for her lunch guests
* we heard from her that when she made & tasted her mushroom duxelles for the lunch, it tasted a bit bland so she rehydrated some of the mushrooms from the Tupperware container and added them ( we didn’t hear that she tasted it again to check it was now adequately seasoned, which imo is what most people would do )
*** she did not tell the medical staff about adding her foraged dehydrated mushrooms to the Asian mushrooms that she insisted she used
*** she did not tell medical staff this mixture was what she used in the lunch
*** she did not take the Tupperware container of the remaining dehydrated mushrooms in for testing
* we heard she willingly told police where to find the lunch left overs - which only showed visible signs of the Woolworths purchased mushrooms
* we heard from her that she couldn’t remember a lot of things
* couldn’t remember looking up Death Caps
* couldn’t remember driving to Loch etc etc
* we heard of her very good memory when she picked up on Prosecutor’s error of a certain Date being on a certain Day, and corrected her
* we heard her sickening tales to substantiate her violent diarrhoea and how she managed / coped with it amongst her busy schedule


IMO any reasonable person would have been aware of the probability of death (or at least really serious injury) would be the fate of anyone who ingests Death Cap mushrooms, simply by their Name.
IMO, feeding DC to anyone shows a reckless disregard for their life & wellbeing.

Four – the accused killed the victims without lawful justification or excuse.
She was not under any immediate physical threat from the victims so cannot claim self defence so had no lawful justification or excuse for killing these people

IMO I have no doubt at all that EP planned & carried out the murder of 3 people & the attempted murder of another.

 

[Woolly]

I think one of the things that isn’t strictly proof but speaks to guilt for me is that she didn’t acknowledge that she foraged the death caps (even accidentally), but tried to leave open an avenue in which they did actually come from the Asian grocer.

Who would mix their foraged mushrooms with random stinky store bought mushrooms?

But even more damning in my opinion, who puts already dehydrated store bought mushrooms into their dehydrator to further dehydrate them? That just reeks of her taking the facts of the death cap residue being found in her dehydrator and making up a ridiculous story to explain it away that doesn’t involve her foraging death caps. And why would an innocent person do that?

 

[Tweet57]

@Warshawski Absolutely Brilliant post

 

[Warshawski]

@Warshawski Absolutely Brilliant post

Thank you @ Tweet57… just needed to get my thoughts straight, then ended up with nothing to excuse her.

 

[Spectrix]

After she had poisoned her 4 guests, we know that Simon claimed she had poisoned him. It is very reasonable to assume that the source of his illness wasn't obvious at the time, but that this event meant he now suspected a meal with her.

That 'claim' was made by Erin herself, and Simon pointed out that it was a lie. Regardless of his personal thoughts, he didn't (according to him) accuse Erin of poisoning anyone.

 

[Salah11]

This ^^^

I’m going to lay things out as I see it (and I apologise in advance for its length)

For a Jury to reach a Guilty verdict in a criminal offence, there are specific ‘elements’ of which they must be satisfied have been proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Re the Charge of Murder, it’s said the accused has cause the victim’s death while intending to kill or cause really serious injury, or being reckless in regards to that human life.

The onus is on the Prosecution to prove the following elements:

One – the accused caused the victims’ death.
IMO it’s already been acknowledged by EP / her defence that she cooked the meal that caused the death of 3 people & also killed a 4th.
It’s been proven the victims died / became ver6 seriously if from Death Cap mushroom toxin
It’s been proven that the meal EP cooked & served them contained Death Cap mushroom tox8ns.

Two – the accused’s acts were conscious, voluntary and deliberate.
EP was fully conscious ( i.e. she was not sleep walking etc) both when she invited these people to lunch, when she cooked the meal, when she served them the food and when she watched them eat the meal
EP voluntarily invited these people lunch, cooked them the meal, served them and watched them eat the meal (i.e. she was doing this under her own will, she was not being forced / threatened by another to do so, nor was she in some sort of rare mental state where her mind lost control of her actions )
The term "deliberate" excludes accidental acts. Also for the act to be ‘deliberate’ the accused must have voluntary & conscious control over their bodily actions.
* EP admits to cooking mushrooms, making a mixture of ‘proven / identified’ button mushrooms + undetected Asian mushrooms
* She was unable to advise where said Asian mushrooms were obtained

Three – that at the time the accused did the acts that caused the victims’ death, s/he intended to kill them or cause them really serious injury

IMO it’s at this point the state of EP’s mind comes into consideration, and her intention may be deduced from her actions & behaviour ( what she said & did, along with what she didn’t do or say) before, at the time of, and after the alleged offence.
* we saw her hostile expletive laden comments from late 2022 about her in-laws & husband
* we saw ‘ck em; I’m over this ; *ing family: I want nothing to do with them’
* we know she searched information on Death Cap mushrooms
* we were given compelling telecoms data that her phone indicated a journey to, and time spent in Death Cap mushroom areas at Death Cap mushroom ‘harvest time’
* we saw photos taken by EP of mushrooms on her scales - a renowned mushroom expert identified these mushrooms as being Death Cap ( 99% from a photo, clearer in the flesh )
* we know she purchased a brand new dehydrator on the afternoon coinciding with one of heavily suggested trips
* we know EP powdered mushrooms as she told her online friends that she had fed her kids brownies laced with powdered mushrooms ( because they didn’t like mushrooms)
* we know she wasn’t in the habit of having her in-laws over to dine ( Heather & Ian had never been invited previously )
* we know she lied to mother-in-law Gail about having tests on her elbow
* we know she issued the lunch invitation under the guise of needing to discuss a serious medical condition with them
* we know she also invited Simon, and didn’t easily accept him declining to attend
* we know she didn’t want the children at the lunch / house - she told them she had adult stuff to discuss
* we know from Ian ( the only survivor of that lunch) that EP told them she had Cancer - which was a lie
* we know from Ian that she served individual Beef Wellingtons
* we know from Ian that EP ate from a different colour plate to which the other 3 guests ate from
* we know Heather mentioned the different coloured plate on the way to hospital
* we know EP showed no concern for her lunch guests when told they were ill in hospital on Sunday morning
* we know she provided no help for them / no help to the many health officials who were trying to isolate the cause of their ill health and their concerns that it may be due to toxic mushrooms
* we are confident (from the knowledge we have of how Death Cap mushroom poisoning presents) that the victims’ symptoms presented in accordance with the published timeframes
* we know EP professed to starting to feel ill many hours before the victims started to become ill
* we know she told her children the meal she fed them Sunday night was leftovers from Sunday lunch - despite the fact her lunch guests were in hospital
* we know EP’s reported symptoms were extremely mild in comparison to her guests
* we know she discharged herself from hospital against medical advice
* we know the Dr struggled to get her to bring the children in for testing, threatening to call police
* we know she said the children didn’t eat mushrooms as she scraped them off
* we know the children said it was only steak, potatoes & beans - no gravy etc. imo it’s reasonable to think that ‘scraped off’ mushroom duxelles will have been visible to the children eating the meal.
* we know EP’s medical tests showed no evidence of Death Cap mushroom poisoning ** imo there’s reasonable doubt that she had any legitimate illness
* we know the children were not ill
* we know the meal contained mushrooms - the mycologist viewed leftover under microscope and could see mushrooms that she identified as only being the type of field mushrooms commonly found in the supermarket
* we know EP purchased said button mushrooms from Woolworths
* we know EP testified to using button mushrooms from Woolworths
* we know EP testified to also using rehydrated mushrooms from the unidentified Asian grocer
* we know that no other mushrooms other than the ‘Woolworths’ mushrooms were visible in the leftovers viewed by the mycologist
* we know the meal contained Death Cap mushroom toxins - identified by a new test available to forensic toxicologists.
* we know that EP powdered mushrooms
** IMO it’s reasonable to consider that the Death Cap mushrooms went into the meal in powdered form.
* we know EP continued to lie to medical professionals when asked if she foraged mushrooms
* we know EP lied to Police when asked if she foraged mushrooms ‘No’; ‘Never’, she added.
* we know witnesses testified that she had indicated being a keen forager of mushrooms
* we know witnesses testified as to her interest in mushrooms & her library of books on mushrooms ( not found by police I believe, but she gave some weird response to the Prosecutor that she had boxes of books in the garage that weren’t unpacked then !!)
* we know her children indicated they had not seen her pick mushrooms
* were the witnesses credible
* were the children remembering accurately
* did she forage when children were not around
* we know EP lied to police when asked if she owned a dehydrator
* we know she quickly dumped the dehydrator
* we know that dehydrator contained traces of Death Cap mushroom toxin
* we know she swapped SIM cards and did factory resets on her phone before and after handing to police
* we know she didn’t hand over her main phone ( phone A)
* we know she did that deliberately because she testified that ‘they didn’t ask for it’
* we know she didn’t attend the funeral of the victims
* we know she lied on the stand about weight loss surgery / liposuction - when her appointment was with a dermatologist.

When EP eventually admitted to foraging mushrooms ( only at the start of the trial) :
* we heard from her that she never picked Death Cap mushrooms
* we heard from her that she dehydrated the foraged mushrooms
* we heard from her that she put these dehydrated mushrooms in a Tupperware container with the previously purchased ‘pungent smelling’ mushrooms purchased from the Asian grocer somewhere.
* we heard from her that she made individual Beef Wellington which she served with mashed potatoes, beans & packet gravy for her lunch guests
* we heard from her that when she made & tasted her mushroom duxelles for the lunch, it tasted a bit bland so she rehydrated some of the mushrooms from the Tupperware container and added them ( we didn’t hear that she tasted it again to check it was now adequately seasoned, which imo is what most people would do )
*** she did not tell the medical staff about adding her foraged dehydrated mushrooms to the Asian mushrooms that she insisted she used
*** she did not tell medical staff this mixture was what she used in the lunch
*** she did not take the Tupperware container of the remaining dehydrated mushrooms in for testing
* we heard she willingly told police where to find the lunch left overs - which only showed visible signs of the Woolworths purchased mushrooms
* we heard from her that she couldn’t remember a lot of things
* couldn’t remember looking up Death Caps
* couldn’t remember driving to Loch etc etc
* we heard of her very good memory when she picked up on Prosecutor’s error of a certain Date being on a certain Day, and corrected her
* we heard her sickening tales to substantiate her violent diarrhoea and how she managed / coped with it amongst her busy schedule


IMO any reasonable person would have been aware of the probability of death (or at least really serious injury) would be the fate of anyone who ingests Death Cap mushrooms, simply by their Name.
IMO, feeding DC to anyone shows a reckless disregard for their life & wellbeing.

Four – the accused killed the victims without lawful justification or excuse.
She was not under any immediate physical threat from the victims so cannot claim self defence so had no lawful justification or excuse for killing these people

IMO I have no doubt at all that EP planned & carried out the murder of 3 people & the attempted murder of another.

A wonderful post and I couldn’t agree more with you.

 

[Susjay]

With respect, it's not disputed even by the defence that Erin poisoned her guests, but I digress -
This is a crime forum, not a courtroom. If you don't believe that other posters should be able to share their opinions, then why are you here?

-

Yes obviously not in dispute that the accused did serve deadly food, and it will be interesting to see the jury’s verdict about intent. And we are outside the courtroom and we can share opinions. However, claims that the accused is guilty or innocent of the charges are incongruent with the sub judice principles that apply in the jurisdiction of this particular trial in Victoria.

Basically anything that may prejudice the accused’s right to a fair trial
Any suggestion, opinion, or direct accusation that the accused is either guilty OR innocent
(i.e. the accused cannot be called "the killer"; use "the accused", "the alleged killer", or "the defendant")

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I don't know how the Australian court system works, but in the US the standard part of every jury instructions I've heard as a juror includes a statement that the jury can choose to exclude any or all of a witness's testimony if they believe it wasn't truthful (among other reasons; this link goes into detail for NY courts).

https://www.nycourts.gov/judges/cji/5-SampleCharges/CJI2d.Final_Instructions.pdf

Yes it's the same in Australia.

Victorian Criminal Charge Book