VERDICT WATCH Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #16 *Arrest*

[Lisa4]

From what weve heard here, it seesm to me that the BW effort was was stretching her cooking limits and she simply didn’t think of gravy in time. Or didn't know how.

 

[MrJ]

Just now
More on the alleged cancer lie
Melissa Brown profile image
By Melissa Brown

Justice Beale then turns to whether Erin Patterson actually said she had cancer at the lunch.

He recalls evidence Ms Patterson gave that she had previously thought she'd had ovarian cancer and that she may have let her guests believe that she needed some treatment.

He reads the transcript of Ms Patterson's repeated denials under oath that she told the guests she had cancer.

He goes through Ian Wilkinson's evidence about what Ms Patterson told them at the lunch and her expressing anxiety about the children's future.

He recalls the defence clarifying about Mr Wilkinson telling police that Ms Patterson had told her guests she "suspected" she had cancer, and his answer in court that he believed he had understated the conversation to police.

Jury begins deliberations in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The jury in Erin Patterson's triple murder trial has begun its deliberations. Follow proceedings as they happened.

www.abc.net.au

 

[MrJ]

Jury begins deliberations in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The jury in Erin Patterson's triple murder trial has begun its deliberations. Follow proceedings as they happened.

www.abc.net.au

2m ago
Simon Patterson's evidence about the cancer claim
Melissa Brown profile image
By Melissa Brown

Justice Beale now turns to Simon Patterson's evidence.

The judge brings up a conversation between Simon and his parents, Don and Gail Patterson, at the Korumburra Hospital about what Erin Patterson told them at the lunch.

He says Simon told the court he knew Erin was worried about an issue with her elbow and that the doctors found cancer, but it was ovarian and not related to her elbow.

Justice Beale recalls the defence saying only Erin and Ian Wilkinson can speak to what was said at the lunch.

He says what Mr Wilkinson said was very different to what Don reportedly told Simon regarding treatment.

 

[ch_13]

It would have a been a "lovely mushroom gravy".

Why do you think she only had rubbish packet gravy for such a well-prepared meal?

The story afterwards would have been, "they all had the mushroom gravy, but I had the packet stuff as there wasn't quite enough".

Well, if that was Erin's plan it wasn't well thought out.

We already know what the couples brought. The Pattersons brought a cake and the Wilkinsons brought a fruit plate. (Not fruit salad like someone else said.) Why would they also bring gravy? Had either couple ever made mushroom gravy before? Why mushroom gravy when the dish already had mushrooms? And why would they suddenly forage mushrooms? From what we know neither couple had a history of foraging.

I think the authorities would be extremely suspicious of such a story. And it could probably be refuted. For example, we know Gail put "fruit" in her calendar to indicate that's what she was bringing. And, Simon would likely know what his parents were planning on taking. Plus, if there was a container with death cap residue, from whose kitchen would it have come from? Erin's or one of her guests?

So, if anything, I think claiming the guests supplied the gravy would have thrown even more suspicion on EP.

 

[jesse]

I knew that I'd seen this somewhere before.

"Erin Patterson had a collection of books about mushrooms which she kept at her home where her fatal beef wellington lunch took place, Daily Mail Australia has been told.

A friend claimed the shelves of her family home at Leongatha included books about delicious yet potentially deadly fungi."

I don't know whether this is true, as it's the same friend who said that Erin and her family were keen foragers...

Erin Patterson had a 'collection of mushroom books' at her home

Deadly cook Erin Patterson had a collection of books about mushrooms she kept at her home where three people died, Daily Mail Australia has been told.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Police didn't find any, although Erin insists she has them.

 

[MrJ]

Jury begins deliberations in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The jury in Erin Patterson's triple murder trial has begun its deliberations. Follow proceedings as they happened.

www.abc.net.au

1m ago
Alleged lie about gastric bypass surgery
Melissa Brown profile image
By Melissa Brown

Justice Beale turns to the prosecution's allegation that Erin Patterson lied about planning to undergo gastric bypass surgery.

He reads a transcript of Ms Patterson saying she wanted surgery to address her weight and low self-esteem but was embarrassed about it. She told the court that she led the guests to believe she needed serious treatment as a cover for the surgery.

She told the court she had a pre-surgery appointment in September 2023 with the ENRICH clinic in Melbourne, and said she was puzzled to hear from the prosecutor that the clinic did not conduct gastric bypass surgery.

Justice Beale then reads a section of the transcript where Ms Patterson, under cross-examination, was taken through exhibits showing a screenshot suggesting the clinic did offer liposuction, which Ms Patterson had told the court she was also interested in.

 

[Detechtive]

I find it extremely interesting that EP didn’t put a plea based on mental health issues ( just my opinion that she suffers) ….. I wonder if her defence advised her to make that Plea or to take the Not Guilty stance.

Been thinking & it’s hsuch a broad & challenging topic - unfortunately there are a lot of mentally unwell people who are not ‘self aware’ (often one of the symptoms)
so for such a person to be encouraged to make such a plea would be highly insulting & bewildering for them (to say the least) IMO … just my opinion that EP may fall into that group.

Broadly speaking and imo - there are a lot of people who want their situation to change; however, the reality is it doesn't just happen. Nothing will change for anyone in any circumstance until they gain clarity - be it of themselves, other personalities, behaviours & situations, of triggers / reactions - next requirement is awareness and then the drive & strength to seek what’s necessary for change, and to act upon it.

I don’t envy the Jury the task before them, and I pray for their wisdom & their guidance

She only admits to things there is undeniable proof of. And besides, she would have to have a mental health diagnosis for that, and she would have had to admit she did it.

I don’t believe she conceded that she could have foraged until there was unavoidable proof. Eg the Facebook group photos.

IMO her legal team probably got real with her after the voire doir and said ‘unless you concede to these lies we can’t represent you’ and or ‘If you don’t concede you’ll be in prison for a very long time’ which is the only reason she conceded.

A plea at that point wouldn’t have been an option, IMO

 

[jesse]

That's ok, we disagree. But I think you're looking at what did happen, as opposed to what she expected to happen.

If the plan had gone as she foresaw, the dehydrator, the clinical staff, public health authorities, commercial store selling mushrooms etc. were all irrelevant.

The guests were meant to all die, relatively quickly, at home, without any of the above actually happening. She would be the sole survivor of the lunch and thus the only one who could say what occurred. The police knock on her door, she lets them find a container with DC residue that one of the guests brought to the lunch. Police then move along to establish a tragic accident, caused by one of the guests. When this didn't happen, of course she was presented with a sandwich and the whole thing looked poorly thought out.

She should have pulled out when Simon didn't come. That was her big mistake, with the months of planning and money already spent, overriding common sense to bide her time IMO.

Edit: Have people thought about why she went to so much trouble with the meal, but only used packet gravy?

No, I understand that. What I'm saying is that people are arguing that she's too intelligent to have executed this so poorly.

She's intelligent, but she made too many assumptions, whether it's because she'd gotten away with things in the past, or her arrogance got the best of her, or she overestimated her ability to talk her way out of things, or her lack of empathy made it impossible to forsee that Simon or someone else would have gotten them care quickly.

An intelligent person without those flaws knows that things don't always go according to plan, and build in accommodations for plans to go awry.

 

[MrJ]

Jury begins deliberations in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The jury in Erin Patterson's triple murder trial has begun its deliberations. Follow proceedings as they happened.

www.abc.net.au

Key Event
2m ago
The judge issues a warning about alleged lies
Melissa Brown profile image
By Melissa Brown

Justice Beale gives the jury instructions on what they can make of Erin Patterson's alleged lies.

He says if they believe she lied, they can use that to determine whether she lied about other things she has said.

But that is not to say that if jury members find she lied about one matter, he warns, they can find she lied about everything else. He says this is just "one factor" to determine the truthfulness of what she said.

He also warns them not to reason that just because they find Ms Patterson lied about something, she must be guilty.

"Evidence she told these lies is not evidence of guilt," he said.

He says there are all sorts of reasons why people might behave in a matter that makes them look like they have committed an offence.

 

[MrJ]

Jury begins deliberations in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The jury in Erin Patterson's triple murder trial has begun its deliberations. Follow proceedings as they happened.

www.abc.net.au

1m ago
Justice Beale explains the burden and standard of proof
Melissa Brown profile image
By Melissa Brown

The judge reminds the jury that accused people are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

He tells the jurors Erin Patterson does not have to prove anything and that proving a charge "beyond reasonable doubt" means the prosecutor has to go further than showing she's "likely" to be guilty.

Justice Beale says the prosecution does not have to prove every fact.

He says it's the essential ingredients or elements of the charges that they have to prove.

He says some murders have a motive and sometimes the motive is only known to the offender.

He says in this case, there is no motive known for why Ms Patterson would have allegedly wanted to kill her lunch guests.

The defence argues there were good reasons for her not to want to harm them: they were her relatives, they had a good relationship, any tensions with Simon were short-lived and Ms Patterson's children loved their grandparents.

 

[MrJ]

Jury begins deliberations in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The jury in Erin Patterson's triple murder trial has begun its deliberations. Follow proceedings as they happened.

www.abc.net.au

Key Event
1m ago
The judge turns to the question of motive
Melissa Brown profile image
By Melissa Brown

Justice Beale points out the prosecution argument that Erin Patterson's relatonship with her estranged husband and her in-laws wasn't as harmonious as the defence suggests.

He says the prosuection is not required to prove a motive to prove its case.

But he says the absence of a motive is a relevant consideration, and must be taken into account when the jury weighs up its verdicts.

Justice Beale tells the jurors that if they find Ms Patterson had good reasons not to kill or attempt to kill her lunch guests, that is a significant consideration.

 

[Hercule Holmes]

100% Agree. Stand in her place *before the event* as an unknown rural country town mum, and needing to keep it that way. Then look at it all from there.



I don't think she factored in deathcap toxins detection or police for a second.

Just thought the guests would die of "severe gastro". Unconnected cases... no pointed fingers, just lots of sympathy to EP at the loss of her inlaws and children's grandparents.

After all, she was just an unknown rural country town mum, remember?


All if guilty and alleged.

Yes, this would have been the preferred outcome, no police suspicion on her at all.

I still think she would have wanted a back-up if autopsies revealed the presence of death caps. The police/health authorities would then have looked for a common meal in the recent days prior to death. They may not have linked it back to her lunch, although the kids would be a concern in that regard.

She would have the container there if required, as no-one was ever coming to collect it. We know the DC residue would survive for as long as she may have needed it to.

 

[otto]

Jury begins deliberations in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The jury in Erin Patterson's triple murder trial has begun its deliberations. Follow proceedings as they happened.

www.abc.net.au

1m ago
Justice Beale explains the burden and standard of proof
Melissa Brown profile image
By Melissa Brown

The judge reminds the jury that accused people are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

He tells the jurors Erin Patterson does not have to prove anything and that proving a charge "beyond reasonable doubt" means the prosecutor has to go further than showing she's "likely" to be guilty.

Justice Beale says the prosecution does not have to prove every fact.

He says it's the essential ingredients or elements of the charges that they have to prove.

He says some murders have a motive and sometimes the motive is only known to the offender.

He says in this case, there is no motive known for why Ms Patterson would have allegedly wanted to kill her lunch guests.

The defence argues there were good reasons for her not to want to harm them: they were her relatives, they had a good relationship, any tensions with Simon were short-lived and Ms Patterson's children loved their grandparents.

Is there a financial motive?

 

[MrJ]

2m ago
Justice Beale explains the elements of murder
Melissa Brown profile image
By Melissa Brown

Justice Beale tells the jury to find Ms Patterson guilty of murder they must be satisfied she put death cap mushrooms in the lunch as part of conscious, voluntary and deliberate conduct.

He reminds the jury that the defence says she accidentally included death cap mushrooms in the beef Wellingtons.

He turns to the element of intention.

He says it's in dispute that she intended to kill or cause really serious injury to her lunch guests.

He tells the jury to look at all of Erin Patterson's proven actions before, at the time of and after the lunch to help determine what her intention was when she served the meal.

He says if there are any reservations, the benefit of doubt must go to the accused.

Jury begins deliberations in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The jury in Erin Patterson's triple murder trial has begun its deliberations. Follow proceedings as they happened.

www.abc.net.au

 

[MrJ]

Just now
Was there murderous intent?
Melissa Brown profile image
By Melissa Brown

Justice Beale says what is in dispute is whether the serving of the poisoinous meal was deliberate and whether it was done with murderous intent.

He goes on to explain that for the charge of attempted murder, they must be satisfied she intended to kill and that an intention to cause really serious injury was not applicable.

Jury begins deliberations in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The jury in Erin Patterson's triple murder trial has begun its deliberations. Follow proceedings as they happened.

www.abc.net.au

 

[MrJ]

1m ago
The court takes a break
Melissa Brown profile image
By Melissa Brown

Justice Beale now revisits evidence about Erin Patterson's faecal sample given in hospital and whether the test conducted on it revealed death cap mushrooms in the matter.

He reminds the jury of evidence that there is no test that can detect amatoxins.

He then tells the jury that he's nearing the end of his directions, saying he has reached page 329 of 365.

But first, he calls a break.

Jury begins deliberations in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The jury in Erin Patterson's triple murder trial has begun its deliberations. Follow proceedings as they happened.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Scuffy35]

With regards to the bulimia, and I'm sure it's been answered on here, did the prosecution know it was going to be her testimony prior to her taking the stand?

It just feels like such a major thing in the case that the prosecution are not allowed to attempt rebut. The judge was all about the prosecution proving the case, but if they are not able to ascertain whether she had bulimia at all, or whether it would have been effective in reducing the toxins then that hardly feels like a fair trial.

There could potentially be jurors tomorrow talking about how bulimia reduced her symptoms, but the prosecution seemingly had no opportunity to deal with this claim.

From what I understand, the defence does not need to disclose it beforehand. But I think the prosecution could have called a rebuttal expert witness.

I don't think the judge has the right to block it and we have not heard that he did. Hopefully we will understand more of what happened here after the verdict.

 

[ch_13]

You're forgetting that they were all supposed to be dead, including Simon.

There was meant to be no-one left to tell a story apart from her. No-one would know about the cake or whether mushroom gravy had been made before. No family members left to verify prior foraging or otherwise. You are looking at what did happen, not what she planned to happen.

Even if Simon had died, these folks had other people in their lives. I'm sure one of their other children could have said what the couples typically brought to parties, if they had made mushroom gravy before or if they would ever forage mushrooms.

I can tell you if someone ever claimed that my mom died because of mushroom gravy that she brought to a lunch, I would be shouting from the rafters: "No way, no how!" There are a hundred different reasons why it's simply implausible that she would have ever done such a thing.

I just don't find this hypothetical believable, but it can't be proved one way or the other. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Walk A Mile]

100% Agree. Stand in her place *before the event* as an unknown rural country town mum, and needing to keep it that way. Then look at it all from there.



I don't think she factored in deathcap toxins detection or police for a second.

Just thought the guests would die of "severe gastro". Unconnected cases... no pointed fingers, just lots of sympathy to EP at the loss of her inlaws and children's grandparents.

After all, she was just an unknown rural country town mum, remember?


All if guilty and alleged.

This is a really solid post. It fits with not disposing of the dehydrator until after the hospital staff spoke to her about death cap poisoning.

 

[LinasK]

Sorry for my ignorance, but how are teeth connected to bulimia?

That's easy- acid erosion of the enamel on the teeth from frequent vomiting.