Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard, Kendall (NSW), Sept 2014 #76

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  • #481
Bbm :( I feel the suppression of their identities has actually made people more suspicious.

Does this mean that if a child in the care of FACS (presumably in foster care) goes missing it won’t be reported unless they die and their body is found? I had to type that out myself to get my head around what you said!
Yeah the insistence on keeping foster kids' identities private at all costs is flawed, IMO. I don't think it keeps kids safe at all. I think if they go missing all such rules should cease to apply. Finding them should take precedence. Its security through obscurity which is proven to be a false concept.

I also think some of the insistence on keeping identities private in such a way is based on old ideas about stigma, and it maintains stigma as well. Just like archaic laws about keeping the identities of sexual assault victims private even when they want to be able to speak out.
 
  • #482
Since both FP's full names were maintained on the NSW court lists right up until their matter today, could this be indicative of some development behind the scenes in WT's investigation?
And it is also interesting to note that the Media did not make mention of the names on the NSW Court lists and left alone that aspect of the Hearing. MOO
 
  • #483
And it is also interesting to note that the Media did not make mention of the names on the NSW Court lists and left alone that aspect of the Hearing. MOO

I believe the media would have been in contempt of court had they done that.

How journalists might commit contempt
Journalists can commit “strict liability“ contempt in various ways, including:

  • asking a juror about deliberations – why they came to their decision.
  • reporting a case when Section 4.2 restrictions are in force (temporary)
  • revealing a defendant’s identity when it is protected by a Section 11 (anonymity) order (lifelong unless lifted)
  • failing to give a balanced report of proceedings.
  • reporting matters discussed in court when the jury were not present.

 
  • #484
I believe the media would have been in contempt of court had they done that.

How journalists might commit contempt
Journalists can commit “strict liability“ contempt in various ways, including:

  • asking a juror about deliberations – why they came to their decision.
  • reporting a case when Section 4.2 restrictions are in force (temporary)
  • revealing a defendant’s identity when it is protected by a Section 11 (anonymity) order (lifelong unless lifted)
  • failing to give a balanced report of proceedings.
  • reporting matters discussed in court when the jury were not present.

I wonder if, once the now guilty plea of alleged dummy bidding has run its course, will a criminal conviction be recorded for the FF and the FM?

IMO, although an offender may choose to never re-offend in that regard, I would imagine that people should be able to employ 'buyer beware' if involved in a like transaction with that offender in the future. Name(s) would likely need to be known to enable that.
 
  • #485
I wonder if, once the now guilty plea of alleged dummy bidding has run its course, will a criminal conviction be recorded for the FF and the FM?

IMO, although an offender may choose to never re-offend in that regard, I would imagine that people should be able to employ 'buyer beware' if involved in a like transaction with that offender in the future. Name(s) would likely need to be known to enable that.
From what I understood from the media report, a tribunal in Fair Trading that oversees agents, has authority to deal with the offence. The link shows the disciplinary actions the board can take with the agent, ranging from fines, changes to agents licenses to public warnings. It doesn't look like there would be criminal proceedings. The consequences might hurt the hip pocket, reputations in the industry etc. Since it's 1 count, it probably won't hurt too much. It might lead to a civil action between the FP's and the purchasers of the home. Disciplinary action
 
  • #486
From what I understood from the media report, a tribunal in Fair Trading that oversees agents, has authority to deal with the offence. The link shows the disciplinary actions the board can take with the agent, ranging from fines, changes to agents licenses to public warnings. It doesn't look like there would be criminal proceedings. The consequences might hurt the hip pocket, reputations in the industry etc. Since it's 1 count, it probably won't hurt too much. It might lead to a civil action between the FP's and the purchasers of the home. Disciplinary action
Or iiii's, do you think this link may cover the FF and the FM:

Bidders guide
Dummy bidding and collusion
It is illegal to make dummy bids at an auction.

The seller of the property is entitled to have one bid made on their behalf by the auctioneer. When the seller’s bid is made the auctioneer must announce it as a vendor bid.

If you make dummy bids for the seller, you may be prosecuted and fined up to $55,000. The property seller who asked you to bid can also be fined up to $55,000, as can the agent and the auctioneer if they were involved in the arrangement.

It is an offence to collude with someone to interfere with free and open competition at the auction. This offence carries a maximum fine of $55,000.”
 
  • #487
I wonder if, once the now guilty plea of alleged dummy bidding has run its course, will a criminal conviction be recorded for the FF and the FM?

IMO, although an offender may choose to never re-offend in that regard, I would imagine that people should be able to employ 'buyer beware' if involved in a like transaction with that offender in the future. Name(s) would likely need to be known to enable that.
I think the deal would be . . . the criminal charge is dropped on condition they plead guilty to a regulatory offence. So they might have to pay a fine or something but escape the risk of criminal conviction. No blemish on their record. MOO.

I don't like it much either.
 
  • #488
Yeah the insistence on keeping foster kids' identities private at all costs is flawed, IMO. I don't think it keeps kids safe at all. I think if they go missing all such rules should cease to apply. Finding them should take precedence. Its security through obscurity which is proven to be a false concept.

I also think some of the insistence on keeping identities private in such a way is based on old ideas about stigma, and it maintains stigma as well. Just like archaic laws about keeping the identities of sexual assault victims private even when they want to be able to speak out.

Totally. I’ve listened to so many podcasts where survivors of sexual assault have given interviews and expressed their frustration that they cannot reveal their identities. In their view it protects the abuser more than themselves.

It really is baffling that he has seemingly vanished. I wonder if anything will ever come from the recommendation to the DPP.
 
  • #489
I think the deal would be . . . the criminal charge is dropped on condition they plead guilty to a regulatory offence. So they might have to pay a fine or something but escape the risk of criminal conviction. No blemish on their record. MOO.

I don't like it much either.

I agree with what your saying JLZ, about the fine, but in addition I think a RE Licence might be cancelled or have some restrictions put on it. IMO
 
  • #490
I think the deal would be . . . the criminal charge is dropped on condition they plead guilty to a regulatory offence. So they might have to pay a fine or something but escape the risk of criminal conviction. No blemish on their record. MOO.

I don't like it much either.
I agree with what your saying JLZ, about the fine, but in addition I think a RE Licence might be cancelled or have some restrictions put on it. IMO
As this plays out on 4 Sep 2023, what may well be a focus in the Hearing is did the Real Estate Agent (Auctioneer) who organized the auction influence the FF and the FM to arrange for the dummy bidder ... or was that arrangement organized solely by the FF/FM?

At the risk of the RE Licence being cancelled, the question might be .... will the Real Estate Agent (Auctioneer) be prepared to take the rap for the dummy bidding activity ... and maybe thereby watering down that dummy bidding arrangement by the FF/FM? MOO
 
  • #491
From what I understood from the media report, a tribunal in Fair Trading that oversees agents, has authority to deal with the offence. The link shows the disciplinary actions the board can take with the agent, ranging from fines, changes to agents licenses to public warnings. It doesn't look like there would be criminal proceedings. The consequences might hurt the hip pocket, reputations in the industry etc. Since it's 1 count, it probably won't hurt too much. It might lead to a civil action between the FP's and the purchasers of the home. Disciplinary action

From the Fair Trading as you linked iiiii’s:

Under the Property and Stock Agents Act 2002 (the Act) and the Property and Stock Agents Regulation 2022 (the Regulation), the Secretary can take disciplinary action against licensees and certificate of registration holders, and former licensees and certificate holders, who:

i’ve been confused over how this may apply to the Former foster female as I’m not aware she has a Real Estate licence
 
  • #492
I suppose there's some doubt about whether the dishonesty caused them to receive a benefit.
I think this is correct.
There hasn't been any confirmation that the property sold at auction AFAIK, only that there was an auction.
It sold at a later date IMO.
 
  • #493
I think this is correct.
There hasn't been any confirmation that the property sold at auction AFAIK, only that there was an auction.
It sold at a later date IMO.
As per quoted below - MOO accordingly, about what remains now is: BBM
"Once the regulatory charges are laid against the couple, the police prosecutor said the fraud charges will be withdrawn.
Their lawyer Phillip English confirmed the couple would enter guilty pleas to the real estate charges when they returned to court on September 4.
“I anticipate the proceedings will proceed to finality,” he said.
The couple would have been facing a jail sentence if found guilty of the fraud charges, which has been downgraded to a maximum penalty of $27,500 each.
 
  • #494
As per quoted below - MOO accordingly, about what remains now is: BBM
"Once the regulatory charges are laid against the couple, the police prosecutor said the fraud charges will be withdrawn.
Their lawyer Phillip English confirmed the couple would enter guilty pleas to the real estate charges when they returned to court on September 4.
“I anticipate the proceedings will proceed to finality,” he said.
The couple would have been facing a jail sentence if found guilty of the fraud charges, which has been downgraded to a maximum penalty of $27,500 each.
I don't know what your point is. Are agreeing with us, disagreeing, or neither?

I would like to know the wording of the regulatory charges.
 
  • #495
I don't know what your point is. Are agreeing with us, disagreeing, or neither?

I would like to know the wording of the regulatory charges.
No, I am not disagreeing with either of you JLZ; my thoughts are that currently the Lawyer for FF and the FM have said that they will enter guilty pleas to having procured a dummy bidder ... simply that. In itself that is against RE Regulations, and it can be irrelevant whether or not there might have been $ gain as a result.

I am open to correction on this ......
 
  • #496

The above article is 5 years old but IMO has an excellent timeline.

I have snipped some dates and points that I found interesting:

18.9.2014: Foster mother picks up relative from Port Macquarie airport and suddenly remembers three strange cars being in Benaroon Drive before William's disappearance. Gives second police statement, at Port Macquarie, and says while searching for William on September 12 she heard a quick, sharp high-pitched scream from the reeds and a grassy knoll. The sound was "like ... when a child hurts themselves" although "maybe it was a bird".

17.3.2015: Foster mother gives third statement to police, with detailed descriptions of two cars, white and dark grey, she saw in the street on the day.

20.12.2015: Foster Mother says William's sister may have been the only witness to abduction and that she knows a "bad person took William".

If William was abducted, it would have been helpful if FM recalled the cars during the 1st interview on the 1st day. From the 000 call there were zero suspicious people around. 6 days later there were three strange cars and 100 days later there were two cars not three?

I also don't understand how Williams sister may have been a witness to William's abduction when she was on the verandah with FGM?

Maybe we could start a folder called "strange and contradictory things FM has said after William disappeared".

Hang on - maybe this folder is already in the brief of evidence given to the director of public prosecutions?
 
  • #497
20.12.2015: Foster Mother says William's sister may have been the only witness to abduction and that she knows a "bad person took William".

As I've said before, IMO, at that age William's sister only 'knew' about what happened to him from what she was told by her foster parent(s).
 
  • #498

The above article is 5 years old but IMO has an excellent timeline.

I have snipped some dates and points that I found interesting:

18.9.2014: Foster mother picks up relative from Port Macquarie airport and suddenly remembers three strange cars being in Benaroon Drive before William's disappearance. Gives second police statement, at Port Macquarie, and says while searching for William on September 12 she heard a quick, sharp high-pitched scream from the reeds and a grassy knoll. The sound was "like ... when a child hurts themselves" although "maybe it was a bird".

17.3.2015: Foster mother gives third statement to police, with detailed descriptions of two cars, white and dark grey, she saw in the street on the day.

20.12.2015: Foster Mother says William's sister may have been the only witness to abduction and that she knows a "bad person took William".

If William was abducted, it would have been helpful if FM recalled the cars during the 1st interview on the 1st day. From the 000 call there were zero suspicious people around. 6 days later there were three strange cars and 100 days later there were two cars not three?

I also don't understand how Williams sister may have been a witness to William's abduction when she was on the verandah with FGM?

Maybe we could start a folder called "strange and contradictory things FM has said after William disappeared".

Hang on - maybe this folder is already in the brief of evidence given to the director of public prosecutions?
JMO – Conducted approx 7 months after William’s disappearance (When Detective Gary Jubelin had taken over the case from Detective Hans Rupp) .... the FM had apparently then been cleared of any involvement by LE), and we could now examine what the FM (And also the FF) has said in their first Police Interview presented to the Public … (Particularly in light of the Brief of Evidence currently with the DPP):

IN THEIR WORDS: William Tyrrell's parents talk of the day their boy went missing and the 'living nightmare' they endure Underlined by me -
A couple of extracts by me ..... from the Interview:

The interview was conducted by a member of NSW Police Media.
KEY:
P = Police
D = Dad
M = Mum


P: That’s part of the battle isn’t it, one minute he’s there, next minute he’s vanished?
D:
Yeah.
M: Yeah, it’s surreal…I’m living somebody’s else’s world, I’m in somebody else’s life.
D: It is like living a nightmare.
M: You wake up and it’s just, it’s just always here. You go about your normal day, it’s just always there. It’s never away from you, it’s constant.”

P: Can you tell us what William was doing at his Nanna’s place?
M:
He was playing, he was having fun, he was in his Spiderman outfit playing Daddy Tiger, I mean, it was fun, it was just normal.
D: He was doing what he would normally do.

P: When did things start to go awry?
M:
Well, when I realised that William was missing, I just, I think back to that moment where I just went, I can’t hear him, why, why can’t I hear him, and I walked around, seriously it was just 2, 3 metres away from where we were sitting, and I’ve just walked out, and I just see nothing. I see nothing, I hear nothing, I’m speechless. I’m walking around in a circle on the spot thinking, where is he, why can’t I see him, and I’m yelling out, “William, where are you, you need to talk to Mummy, tell me where you are, I can’t see you, I can’t hear you, where are you?”, and he was nowhere, and I’m just standing there thinking, how could he just disappear because he just disappeared and I don’t get it, I don’t get it.

P: So you raised the alarm immediately?
M:
Well I raced around for a bit, then went down and got the neighbour to help, then D came back, because he had a meeting.
D: I had a meeting and I arrived back and there was a bit of confusion if William was with me, because he’s always looking out for me and my car, and I was on my way back, and I’d arrived back and been asked if William was with me and I said no, then I immediately got out of the car and started looking around, and within 5 minutes we raised the alarm and I think I ran the perimeter of the whole street within about 10-15 minutes, and I mean, he wouldn’t, he’s not a wanderer, he wouldn’t even cross the street by himself. He wouldn’t go far.

P: Parents know their own kids, don’t they.
M:
He wouldn’t do it, he just wouldn’t do it, it’s not in him, even if somebody was to entice him across the road he wouldn’t do it, he’d run back, it’s just not in his character to go blindly with people. Every mother says that about their child and I realise that kids can be tempted, I understand that completely. William’s personality was, “I’m interested but I‘m cautious”, like he didn’t trust freely. I can’t see him doing it.
D: He was cautious, he’d cower away as little children would normally do, but he had this instinct about him about doing the right and wrong thing.

P: It’s a tough question, but when did you first suspect abduction?
M:
In my mind it was immediate, because there was no way in the world William would have gone into that bush, it’s too thick, there’s lantana all through it. There is no way in the world he would have gone into that bush.

P: Being a cautious boy he would have thought twice?
M:
It was in my head and even Mum, while I was talking with Mum while we were waiting and I was doing the frantic thing and running through the house and opening up cupboards and all sorts of stuff, I just kept going through my head, somebody’s taken him, I can’t, in my mind it was the only logical explanation for what could have happened.
D: A child in that situation, in that circumstance, in those surrounds would not just disappear into thin air. I mean I had my doubts, I did not know what to believe at the time, especially the first hour or two I didn’t know what to believe but I guess my mind was wondering as to what could have happened to him. I just had to keep on going and have the support of the community around us that were also looking for him. The police were on the scene within minutes, which was absolutely fantastic, but I didn’t know what to believe.
M: But in that community, you don’t expect somebody to take a child. I mean seriously, it’s a tiny community, everybody knows each other around those streets, there’s complete trust. I’m astounded that there could be somebody living there or people living there that could do this, it’s just not the place. You’d expect abductions in the city, you don’t expect to hear about abductions out here in Kendall, I mean it’s just ridiculous.

P: Parents are extra cautious in Sydney, but you’d probably let your guard down and be a bit disarmed in a quiet neck of the woods like that. Do you feel betrayed that someone within that community has potentially kidnapped a child?
M:
I don’t think it’s somebody from the community. I think it’s somebody who doesn’t have a history there, I think it’s…If, I mean I don’t know for sure. I can’t see, I can’t see a true local who knows my Mum, who knows us, and knows our family, choosing to take our child. I can’t see that, and if that’s the case, then I feel so sorry for that community, because that is absolutely disgraceful and nobody can trust a soul. That’s not the community of Kendall, people trust each other there."
 
  • #499
As this case has a real possibility of heading back to the inquest now …..(if we are to believe what has been published …. )

Does any one have a list of all of the witnesses that have appeared to date, or know where to find that???

Just curious to have another look at that list, and see who may be re called to give further evidence???

TIA and all IMO
 
  • #500
JMO – Conducted approx 7 months after William’s disappearance (When Detective Gary Jubelin had taken over the case from Detective Hans Rupp) .... the FM had apparently then been cleared of any involvement by LE), and we could now examine what the FM (And also the FF) has said in their first Police Interview presented to the Public … (Particularly in light of the Brief of Evidence currently with the DPP):

IN THEIR WORDS: William Tyrrell's parents talk of the day their boy went missing and the 'living nightmare' they endure Underlined by me -
A couple of extracts by me ..... from the Interview:

The interview was conducted by a member of NSW Police Media.
KEY:
P = Police
D = Dad
M = Mum


P: That’s part of the battle isn’t it, one minute he’s there, next minute he’s vanished?
D:
Yeah.
M: Yeah, it’s surreal…I’m living somebody’s else’s world, I’m in somebody else’s life.
D: It is like living a nightmare.
M: You wake up and it’s just, it’s just always here. You go about your normal day, it’s just always there. It’s never away from you, it’s constant.”

P: Can you tell us what William was doing at his Nanna’s place?
M:
He was playing, he was having fun, he was in his Spiderman outfit playing Daddy Tiger, I mean, it was fun, it was just normal.
D: He was doing what he would normally do.

P: When did things start to go awry?
M:
Well, when I realised that William was missing, I just, I think back to that moment where I just went, I can’t hear him, why, why can’t I hear him, and I walked around, seriously it was just 2, 3 metres away from where we were sitting, and I’ve just walked out, and I just see nothing. I see nothing, I hear nothing, I’m speechless. I’m walking around in a circle on the spot thinking, where is he, why can’t I see him, and I’m yelling out, “William, where are you, you need to talk to Mummy, tell me where you are, I can’t see you, I can’t hear you, where are you?”, and he was nowhere, and I’m just standing there thinking, how could he just disappear because he just disappeared and I don’t get it, I don’t get it.

P: So you raised the alarm immediately?
M:
Well I raced around for a bit, then went down and got the neighbour to help, then D came back, because he had a meeting.
D: I had a meeting and I arrived back and there was a bit of confusion if William was with me, because he’s always looking out for me and my car, and I was on my way back, and I’d arrived back and been asked if William was with me and I said no, then I immediately got out of the car and started looking around, and within 5 minutes we raised the alarm and I think I ran the perimeter of the whole street within about 10-15 minutes, and I mean, he wouldn’t, he’s not a wanderer, he wouldn’t even cross the street by himself. He wouldn’t go far.

P: Parents know their own kids, don’t they.
M:
He wouldn’t do it, he just wouldn’t do it, it’s not in him, even if somebody was to entice him across the road he wouldn’t do it, he’d run back, it’s just not in his character to go blindly with people. Every mother says that about their child and I realise that kids can be tempted, I understand that completely. William’s personality was, “I’m interested but I‘m cautious”, like he didn’t trust freely. I can’t see him doing it.
D: He was cautious, he’d cower away as little children would normally do, but he had this instinct about him about doing the right and wrong thing.

P: It’s a tough question, but when did you first suspect abduction?
M:
In my mind it was immediate, because there was no way in the world William would have gone into that bush, it’s too thick, there’s lantana all through it. There is no way in the world he would have gone into that bush.

P: Being a cautious boy he would have thought twice?
M:
It was in my head and even Mum, while I was talking with Mum while we were waiting and I was doing the frantic thing and running through the house and opening up cupboards and all sorts of stuff, I just kept going through my head, somebody’s taken him, I can’t, in my mind it was the only logical explanation for what could have happened.
D: A child in that situation, in that circumstance, in those surrounds would not just disappear into thin air. I mean I had my doubts, I did not know what to believe at the time, especially the first hour or two I didn’t know what to believe but I guess my mind was wondering as to what could have happened to him. I just had to keep on going and have the support of the community around us that were also looking for him. The police were on the scene within minutes, which was absolutely fantastic, but I didn’t know what to believe.
M: But in that community, you don’t expect somebody to take a child. I mean seriously, it’s a tiny community, everybody knows each other around those streets, there’s complete trust. I’m astounded that there could be somebody living there or people living there that could do this, it’s just not the place. You’d expect abductions in the city, you don’t expect to hear about abductions out here in Kendall, I mean it’s just ridiculous.

P: Parents are extra cautious in Sydney, but you’d probably let your guard down and be a bit disarmed in a quiet neck of the woods like that. Do you feel betrayed that someone within that community has potentially kidnapped a child?
M:
I don’t think it’s somebody from the community. I think it’s somebody who doesn’t have a history there, I think it’s…If, I mean I don’t know for sure. I can’t see, I can’t see a true local who knows my Mum, who knows us, and knows our family, choosing to take our child. I can’t see that, and if that’s the case, then I feel so sorry for that community, because that is absolutely disgraceful and nobody can trust a soul. That’s not the community of Kendall, people trust each other there."
I like, that you posted. Thank you! I don't like anything else. The truth is: I actually would need a green Emoji.
 
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