AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #2

[colette]

Some posters on here do not understand how some of us think the boy is guilty of premeditated double murder. If we think the boy is guilty it doesn't mean we don't love kids or aren't parents and grandparents. Just because we don't think the boy was abused doesn't mean we have or haven't been abused in our personal lives.
We don't automatically think this boy is innocent because he is only 8, we have looked at the facts that we have seen and this is our opinion. Let's not get personal.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Have you been abused?Do you know this?An abuser always threatens and intimidates.

Yes I know this very well. Too well.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Some posters on here do not understand how some of us think the boy is guilty of premeditated double murder. If we think the boy is guilty it doesn't mean we don't love kids or aren't parents and grandparents. Just because we don't think the boy was abused doesn't mean we have or haven't been abused in our personal lives.
We don't automatically think this boy is innocent because he is only 8, we have looked at the facts that we have seen and this is our opinion. Let's not get personal.

Exactly. I for one, seemed to be questioned about my personal life at every turn.

The only reason for that IMO is because I believe this boy did what he is accused of doing. I don't really care if he is 8 or 88. Whatever the Courts decided to do with him is their call but it will not dissuade my opinion of his guilt.

imoo

 

[mostlylurking]

Some posters on here do not understand how some of us think the boy is guilty of premeditated double murder. If we think the boy is guilty it doesn't mean we don't love kids or aren't parents and grandparents. Just because we don't think the boy was abused doesn't mean we have or haven't been abused in our personal lives.
We don't automatically think this boy is innocent because he is only 8, we have looked at the facts that we have seen and this is our opinion. Let's not get personal.

And it seems that some posters don't understand why others of us have not made up our minds about guilt or not, and that we feel most of the basis for the discussions of the last month is still somewhat circumstantial, and flat out not known due to the gag order. We are all drawing on experiences in life on which to base opinions on this case. I shared mine relative to abuse, in order to help another poster who has expressed an opinion that it could not have happened based on not seeing signs, that signs are not always seen. I was not trying to "get personal". I was trying to share what in my life is guiding my opinion of this case and my interpretation of the limited facts as we actually know them at this point.

Is that not allowed?

 

[mostlylurking]

Exactly. I for one, seemed to be questioned about my personal life at every turn.

The only reason for that IMO is because I believe this boy did what he is accused of doing. I don't really care if he is 8 or 88. Whatever the Courts decided to do with him is their call but it will not dissuade my opinion of his guilt.

imoo

I was not questioning you personal life. I was sharing what is part of what is causing me to form my opinion.

 

[Shock]

That link is just talk about the therapist and who the boy can talk to that will or won't testify in court, no police report.

Sorry. Go here, then click on Police Report to the right of the article.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/12/04/20081204stjohns1204.html

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Hi
I know this very well also and your answer is not what an abused person would say.I agree,Lets not get personal.So far this has all been speculation and there are no real facts out.We should not act like we know it all when we don't.As I said before I will come come back periodically and check when more information is released.Untill then we are not really getting any where.I do think something provoked this little boy to behave like this.I do care for this little boy and I will not give up on him.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Thankyou for sharing with us mostlylurking.I do very much appreciate it.

suzanne

 

[Fairy1]

Mostlylurking - you are certainly entitled to your own opinion and after all, our opinions - all of them - are based on our own personal experiences on some level or another. This is a difficult case and surely controversial in so many ways. I personally don't believe we have quite enough information to make a judgment - but again - that's just IMO. I hope, in the end, we will know the truth of what happened here.

 

[mostlylurking]

Thankyou for sharing with us mostlylurking.I do very much appreciate it.

suzanne

Thank you suzanne.

 

[mostlylurking]

Mostlylurking - you are certainly entitled to your own opinion and after all, our opinions - all of them - are based on our own personal experiences on some level or another. This is a difficult case and surely controversial in so many ways. I personally don't believe we have quite enough information to make a judgment - but again - that's just IMO. I hope, in the end, we will know the truth of what happened here.

Thanks Fairy1. I agree. It is hugely difficult & I don't think there is enough information to make a judgement either. Given that, since it is a child being held, I cling even more to the IUPG & truly hope that whatever the outcome, this child gets the treatment he will need. Jailtime won't fix it if he is guilty, but therapy might.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

First, OBE, sorry I offered yesterday or whatever day it was. I am really torn on this whole case & I did tend to take it out on you when I finally let go and ranted. That wasn't really my intention & I am sorry.

Second, I have to disagree on your comments about abusers. We were very doted on in other people's eyes growing up. We had a home made 2 story tree house, got piano lessons and had little mini motor cycles. Took skiing vacations, flew in a rented private plane to get there & got bear hugs that could squeeze the breath out of you when things had gone well. But when a belt wasn't handy & a water hose was, it got used on us. Not a single neighbor would have known. We were all in fear of not doing well in school, so not a single teacher would have known. My mother stood back & watched and she worked for the DHS in that city, CPS would not have known. When we did act up, we were told wait til you father gets home & I remember cowering in a corner as the belt was coming off and not a single family member would have known. And when I was raped at 10, I didn't tell my parents because I truly believed I would be beat over it & not a single person knew until I was in my 20s.

Abuse happens all the time. Verbal, physical and emotional. It leaves no outward marks many times. And not a single person knows -- except the one it is happening to & they don't feel safe to tell anyone.

There is a gag order in place & it has been for a very long time now. At this point if anyone has given testimony or deposition regarding any kind of abuse, none of us would know about it at this point. It can not be assumed that it was not present.

Nothing can be assumed about this case at this point and virtually everything that has been discussed since the beginning of November is all supposition, speculation and personal opinion, imo.

I try very hard not to take anything personally in any case. I know that emotions can run high and that opinions will differ. There is always a majority opinion and then a minority one. The ones with a minority opinion tends to be challenged more. I have no problem with that premise. I am very comfortable in my own opinion.

We can only go with our own life experiences. When I was abused by my father from the age of 5 until age 15, I was not doted on. I was isolate and allowed no friends. I was not given bikes to ride or dirt bikes,dolls, or whatever I may have yearned for at the time. I was lucky if I was given books to read for Christmas...no toys, even though he had more than plenty of money to buy many other things. My father certainly didn't take me with him like I was his best buddy. I did have to always stay home with him when he wasn't at work and wait on him hand and foot though and comply to his endless demands. I was just there, almost as if I didn't exist, and sometimes I even pretended to myself, I didn't. He made no bones about his dislike for children, including me, his only child at the time. So I tried to fade into the woodwork the best I could. He didn't threaten me. He carried out each violent act he told me he was going to do.

I told no one until I was 38 years old. I have long ago moved onto a much different and a much better life. I have no hang ups anymore except at times I do still jump out of my skin, if someone comes up on my blindside, and grabs me just playing, but those other days are long gone and replaced with what it should be. Being a loving mother and devoted wife, who always shows that I love deeply each and everyone in my life and respects and honors them until the day I die. That is my life now and I am truly blessed. Life is what you make it and it isn't what has happened to you in the past but how one deals with it that makes all the difference in their world imo.

imoo

 

[Fairy1]

Bless you OBE and ML. Both of you have survived unspeakable horrors and are here to help others to avoid the same fate. It's interesting to me that you have each fallen on such opposite sides of the track on this particular case. I have never been in an abusive situation, but I feel strongly that if this little boy was, he - at least somewhat - did the right thing. I'm not an advocate of any murderer. But based on what I've read about on WS, if this boy was being abused or neglected in any way, I cannot condemn him for his actions. OTOH, I'm really not convinced we know all there is to know here.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

I'm sorry we all went through what we did.But your answers to me did not sound like you were abused.I guess some just thought people were not very feeling towards this little boy and some people weren't.Hopefully we can go on with life and make it the best we can one day at a time.I do wish you well and I really do mean that.

suzanne

 

[mostlylurking]

I try very hard not to take anything personally in any case. I know that emotions can run high and that opinions will differ. There is always a majority opinion and then a minority one. The ones with a minority opinion tends to be challenged more. I have no problem with that premise. I am very comfortable in my own opinion.

We can only go with our own life experiences. When I was abused by my father from the age of 5 until age 15, I was not doted on. I was isolate and allowed no friends. I was not given bikes to ride or dirt bikes,dolls, or whatever I may have yearned for at the time. I was lucky if I was given books to read for Christmas...no toys, even though he had more than plenty of money to buy many other things. My father certainly didn't take me with him like I was his best buddy. I did have to always stay home with him and wait on him hand and foot though and comply to his endless demands. I was just there, almost as if I didn't exist, and sometimes I even pretended to myself, I didn't. He made no bones about his dislike for children, including me, his only child at the time. So I tried to fade into the woodwork the best I could. He didn't threaten me. He carried out each violent act he told me he was going to do.

I told no one until I was 38 years old. I have long ago moved onto a much different and a much better life. I have no hang ups anymore except at times I do still jump out of my skin, if someone comes up on my blindside, and grabs me just playing, but those other days are long gone and replaced with what it should be. Being a loving mother and devoted wife, who always shows that I love deeply each and everyone in my life and respects and honors them until the day I die. That is my life now and I am truly blessed. Life is what you make it and it isn't what has happened to you in the past but how one deals with it that makes all the difference in their world imo.

imoo

Ah, ha! We have something on which we agree.
It took therapy & a lot of 12 step rooms to get me there, but the only part of my "past life" that can hurt me now, is if I let it exist in me as though it is still happening.

I am sorry for your childhood. No one should have to be treated that way. And I thank you for sharing. It has helped me understand your view.

This case has me shaken. It is as bad to me as the Devlin thing was when it happened. That 2nd boy was taken less than 2 miles from where I used to live & Devlin was found less than 2 miles from my parents in law. Most cases I just read about & lurk. Some hit me at the core & I get obsessed with following them. This is one of those.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm sorry we all went through what we did.But your answers to me did not sound like you were abused.I guess some just thought people were not very feeling towards this little boy and some people weren't.Hopefully we can go on with life and make it the best we can one day at a time.I do wish you well and I really do mean that.

suzanne

I can understand that somewhat. Most people when there is a hint of abuse tend to agree that there is, due to their own past abuse imo. It is sort of like "I was ..therefore ...they are too" imo which I can understand even though I do not believe the same way.

However, I guess I am different, I do not assume there was abuse done to a defendant just because I suffered abuse, especially when there is no concrete evidence to support it.

If it becomes known and is true, then I will hate that this boy had to endure that but I still do not give anyone, including him, the abuse excuse as a reason to end two people's lives. Violence can never be the answer or the solution. It only exacerbates the problem. Just look at where the boy is today.

imo

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I think the point I was trying to make is that abuse comes in many forms. Physical and mental. Even if it was the step-mother who was doing the spanking the night before, it did sound as if it was dictated by the father. We don't know what has gone on in the family dynamics of that particular situation. The grandmother seems to know a lot more and can understand why he would have reacted in such a way tho.

I am sorry for those who have gone through such abuse in any way. It is a horrible thing for any child to endure.

Still...we are talking about an 8 year old child here!!! Not 15 or 16 years old. Not 10 or 12 years old. 8 years old. No. I don't believe he has the mental skills or the judgement to plan and carry out a double homicide plus know the long term consequences of those actions.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Ah, ha! We have something on which we agree.
It took therapy & a lot of 12 step rooms to get me there, but the only part of my "past life" that can hurt me now, is if I let it exist in me as though it is still happening.

I am sorry for your childhood. No one should have to be treated that way. And I thank you for sharing. It has helped me understand your view.

This case has me shaken. It is as bad to me as the Devlin thing was when it happened. That 2nd boy was taken less than 2 miles from where I used to live & Devlin was found less than 2 miles from my parents in law. Most cases I just read about & lurk. Some hit me at the core & I get obsessed with following them. This is one of those.

Thank you.

My heart goes out to you, mostlylurking. I know to some extent what you had to go through. Life can be so scary at times but we all must forge on to better days and I am so glad that you worked through your pain and suffering and came out on "the other side" and became a survivor warrior.

imoo

 

[Ms Suzanne]

I don't know if you went through abuse or not or really to what extent.I'm glad we are all ok through it.I do know because I went through it.I do see the signs in this case.I really don't want to talk about the abuse any more.It is not today.Mostlylurking we have alot in common.Maybe we can talk.You seem very nice But I really don't want to come here too much untill more is known on this case.everyone just really doesn't know it all or everything yet and shouldn't sound like they do.I will check periodically.no one had a right to provoke this kid if they did.

suzanne

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't know if you went through abuse or not or really to what extent.I'm glad we are all ok through it.I do know because I went through it.I do see the signs in this case.I really don't want to talk about the abuse any more.It is not today.Mostlylurking we have alot in common.Maybe we can talk.You seem very nice But I really don't want to come here too much until more is known on this case.everyone just really doesn't know it all or everything yet.i will check periodically.no one had a right to provoke this kid if they did.

suzanne

That is your call, Suzanne. It matters not to me whether you believe me or not. You being dismissive of me certainly doesn't change what I went through in my past as a child or the abuse I suffered from my first husband of 10 years who also tried to murder me and was almost successful. So you believe what you must believe but unfortunately it will not change my past one iota. It is what it is. I have told my story in much more depth for many years. Both here and other sites, so it is well known because I don't hide it because I did nothing wrong and have nothing to be ashamed of. But yes, I was emotionally, physically, mentally and sexually abused as a child for over 10 years, until my mother had my brother when I was 15.

imoo