Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #3

[SnooperDuper]

IMHO, I think MM will be the one that does both of them in.

Yes, when she first talked to LE she was very conflicted because she thought she might be pregnant by MS and she really couldn't believe that he was part of it: MS had told her it was all DM and she believed him...because at that point it was probably keep the faith or realize you might be tied for life by a child to a murderer. That's a tough spot.

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...nues-testimony-at-tim-bosma-murder-trial.html

This time there's no possible pregnancy, and she has been broken off from MS for years and worked to move on, and she knows the outcome of the Bosma trial.

She'll be speaking from a different place and have no reason to hold back.

 

[Grey-St]

You have to give the girl credit: it sounds like she was in a real tough spot with the boyfriend before MS and she got herself out of that. She's the one that strikes me as always seeking the better path in this. She cleaned herself up and tried to encourage MS to stay out of trouble too. MS knew he had to hide things from her because she wouldn't tolerate what he was up to. She wasn't loyal to him and called off the relationship after the arrest. I see her as someone of fundamentally good character who went through some rough stuff. MOO.

I couldn’t agree more. It is my opinion that she gave an extremely forthcoming testimony in the TB trial. Was she once very much in love with MS? Absolutely. Sometimes we don’t always make the best decisions when it comes to the company we keep. Especially when we are young and vulnerable. I’ve been there myself. But she put that behind her and gave a truthful and valuable testimony. She was not a hostile witness in any way, and I will even go as far to say that I think she wants justice for the victims and their families.

 

[puppyraiser]

Maybe DM drown her in the pool, hence the lyric in the rap about last time seeing her outside the home.

 

[matou]

Maybe DM drown her in the pool, hence the lyric in the rap about last time seeing her outside the home.

Maybe. He could have given her coke with heroin in it to make her OD? I think they "hurt" her though and she was likely shot.

 

[inbetweendoors]

This may not be a popular opinion, but here goes... (and of course all MOO):

I know there is plenty of evidence to come, however my preliminary opinion is that I'm finding it hard to reconcile MS being a part of the actual murder of LB (again, *so far*).

I'm hung up on his lyrics "last time I saw her was outside the home" (surely they wouldn't have killed her outside?) and the witness "garage testimony" that he said "we burned a girl and dumped her in the lake". To me this implies that he was definitely involved in the incineration and remains/phone disposal, but not the actual killing.

It also seems like DM was going out of his way to set MS up to take the fall - having him pose for Eliminator photos, while ensuring pics of himself were innocuous (standing on bucket with plane close to the same time as the tarp pic - taken at separate locations), giving MS the red bag and the iPad. I also don't think it's implausible that DM himself named the iPad "Mark's iPad" while setting it up prior to giving it to him. After all, it had DM's iTunes info of which the password MS was initially not privy to.

This isn't to say MS didn't have a hand in planning...though I don't feel we've seen evidence to support that just yet.

Helping DM obtain firearms could even be argued that his intention was to commit armed robberies (missions) but not murder.

Not saying he's a good guy by any stretch, but I'm interested to see what additional info may be presented about phone locations at the time of the murder and any other evidence the Crown may present against MS. If I were the jury, *at this point*, I don't think I'd feel confident convicting MS of M1.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

I also forgot to include our discussions about the texts between DM and MS on the 3rd/4th where we were debating whether or not they were together. On mobile and not easy to find a quote sorry.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[SnooperDuper]

MS may not have been there for the actual murder but he was in on the planning before (gun) and after (incineration). A "planned and deliberate" murder is first degree murder. As with the Bosma trial, it does not matter who the actual killer was. It was found that they worked together in a plan that included killing someone.

 

[Errrr]

Maybe. He could have given her coke with heroin in it to make her OD? I think they "hurt" her though and she was likely shot.

With respect to people thinking MS was not actually participating at the moment of murder, remember how eager he was to acquire something wet, with bones to feed their new toy. They planned for this event together and DM had no difficulties doing it with MS nearby to help with the clean-up. I wouldn't take the lyrics that literally. There's a lot of posing in that video. I think LB was dispatched quietly as DM found an opportunity that appealed to him. I don't think a gunshot would have been wise with MM in the house.
It was interesting in that video where MS is rapping, if you go swimming you can find her bones....find her bones?....find her phone! At least that's what I heard.

 

[Alban]

From The Mob Reporter on YouTube - WHAT THE JURY SAW: Laura Babcock Trial — What was on Millard’s computers (1) https://youtu.be/46QwzJZulf4

From The Mob Reporter on YouTube - WHAT THE JURY SAW: Laura Babcock Trial — What was on Millard’s computers (2) https://youtu.be/9ksGlY5-N7Q

These videos are in slideshow format and some go by too quickly to fully read, so you may want to pause some.

 

[inbetweendoors]

MS may not have been there for the actual murder but he was in on the planning before (gun) and after (incineration). A "planned and deliberate" murder is first degree murder. As with the Bosma trial, it does not matter who the actual killer was. It was found that they worked together in a plan that included killing someone.

But what proves he knew what the gun was to be used for? I just saw a lot of theft talk, not murder.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Hello everyone! I’ve been a long time reader, and this is my first post. There’s something I feel needs to be addressed regarding MM.

To the individual who felt it was appropriate to pass judgement on MM’s personal background, (I cannot find the quote at the moment, and I believe it may be in the previous thread), this is for you. If it is your opinion that MM had knowledge of this murder or others, you are entitled to that opinion as this is obviously a place for fair and honest discussion. What I do not think you’re entitled to, is to base that opinion on the fact that MM comes from a low income family, that her mother is a maid, that her sister lives in a bad area of oakville and that MM has done drugs in the past. This does not in any shape or form, make someone a criminal, or make someone complicit to murder. It’s in fact extremely discriminatory, inappropriate, and quite honestly ignorant. Maybe it’s just the social worker in me, but it is extremely unfair to pass judgement on someone based on these facts. It’s like saying someone is “guilty as charged” because they are black. It’s just plain wrong.

I hope I’m not the only one that shares this sentiment, and I hope we can all be more progressive and thoughtful with our opinions and comments going forward. Thanks!

Agreed. Everyone recoils at how CN, KS and DM talk about certain people in their texts - we have to avoid doing the same and calling people crack addicts or untrustworthy or whatever - just because of something their boyfriends or kids did - when there is no proof at all.

 

[SnooperDuper]

But what proves he knew what the gun was to be used for? I just saw a lot of theft talk, not murder.

Well that's why you call the evidence circumstantial...it's evidence all around the crime that points to what happened. Who knows, maybe there is a bullet hole in the floor underneath where the mattress laid. That would be circumstantial too. More likely we only know that DM was seeking a gun with MS's help and someone ended up dead and it is up to the jury to decide if this is all part of the same picture.

 

[SnooperDuper]

But what proves he knew...

I'm just going to add than nothing has to be fully proven: it just has to be the most reasonable explanation.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" means a bunch of people have to agree on the most likely scenario, not prove absolutely what happened.

 

[JuneBug67]

I find the evidence complicated by two things: a certain lack of clarity from out here and the fact that it’s hard for it to not to run all together with what I know from the TB trial. I’m finding it hard to keep a meaningful sense of what the jury has actually seen in this case. The motive may be challenged because Dell didn’t really much care about anybody beyond himself and there is ample evidence he treated Christina poorly. I think we’re missing a giant piece in that all these years later we still don’t really know what the incinerator was for in the grand scheme of their hopes for a criminal empire. It never made sense that it was just for a truck and it doesn’t make sense that it was just for a girl. There seems to be a certain distance between Smich and Millard’s known acts on the 3rd and 4th that is currently hard to understand. I’m hoping the rest of the crown’s case sharpens all this, but they are hobbled by the fact that the investigation was a year late.

 

[Claroon]

It seems to be. I wonder if there will be evidence in the van, or about the van, or if it simply serves to tie the tarp picture to DM in one more way?

I suspect since the van was taped off as evidence that they used the luminol on it and found something IMO.

The officer is pointing out seals on the doors that were placed there by police for continuity of evidence.
by Adam Carter 2:16 PM yesterday

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

I believe that the red tape shown on the vapour barrier that's crumpled up against the wall, is used to hold the plastic sheeting in place on the wall. If that's correct, then the monsters ripped vapour barrier off a wall and brought it to this crime scene. One does not use vapour barrier in a barn. I am very confident that DNA was found at the crime scene.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...sday-1.4394149

The vapour barrier could very likely have been used as as secondary wrap to contain the smell of the rotting body, since the red vapour barrier tape creates an air-tight seal.

 

[JuneBug67]

The vapour barrier could very likely have been used as as secondary wrap to contain the smell of the rotting body, since the red vapour barrier tape creates an air-tight seal.

Sounds like something he googled and forgot to take a screen shot of. :eyeroll:

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

From The Mob Reporter on YouTube - WHAT THE JURY SAW: Laura Babcock Trial — What was on Millard’s computers (1) https://youtu.be/46QwzJZulf4

From The Mob Reporter on YouTube - WHAT THE JURY SAW: Laura Babcock Trial — What was on Millard’s computers (2) https://youtu.be/9ksGlY5-N7Q

These videos are in slideshow format and some go by too quickly to fully read, so you may want to pause some.

Hopefully he puts up more since these just show the verifications of names/devices and addresses.

 

[Oreck]

How long after a spill does luminol work for?
I suppose it depends on how the spill was stored
Inside or out in the weather.
Does anyone here know?

 

[Oreck]

This may not be a popular opinion, but here goes... (and of course all MOO):

I know there is plenty of evidence to come, however my preliminary opinion is that I'm finding it hard to reconcile MS being a part of the actual murder of LB (again, *so far*).

I'm hung up on his lyrics "last time I saw her was outside the home" (surely they wouldn't have killed her outside?) and the witness "garage testimony" that he said "we burned a girl and dumped her in the lake". To me this implies that he was definitely involved in the incineration and remains/phone disposal, but not the actual killing.

It also seems like DM was going out of his way to set MS up to take the fall - having him pose for Eliminator photos, while ensuring pics of himself were innocuous (standing on bucket with plane close to the same time as the tarp pic - taken at separate locations), giving MS the red bag and the iPad. I also don't think it's implausible that DM himself named the iPad "Mark's iPad" while setting it up prior to giving it to him. After all, it had DM's iTunes info of which the password MS was initially not privy to.

This isn't to say MS didn't have a hand in planning...though I don't feel we've seen evidence to support that just yet.

Helping DM obtain firearms could even be argued that his intention was to commit armed robberies (missions) but not murder.

Not saying he's a good guy by any stretch, but I'm interested to see what additional info may be presented about phone locations at the time of the murder and any other evidence the Crown may present against MS. If I were the jury, *at this point*, I don't think I'd feel confident convicting MS of M1.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

As I recall Mark was councilling Dellen on incinerator size, in May or June of 2012.

 

[Claroon]

Woman missing, suspected escort, last known contact a very wealthy man...

Ever think that LE didn't chase after LB because her last known contacts were all men with money?

Perhaps, but I think more it's because someone over 18 has a right to do what they want and unless there is a body or evidence of foul play, LE are too busy to chase after every missing person. Even her parents suspected she was away on a trip.