Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #4

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  • #121
I understand. And I didn't interpret your comments that way at all.

I just wanted to point out that in live coverage, there will always be some confusion and reporter error. It's the nature of the beast. And I know you're not implying otherwise, but I just think AC has done a phenomenal job with that live blog. He is amazingly accurate and thorough given the conditions.

I do think there's a bit of a tendency -- and, again, I don't address this to you personally -- for people to think the lawyers are missing something, but everything is planned in advance. And they almost always check with their co-counsel to make sure there are no extra questions before wrapping up an examination.

I couldn't agree more on all points. What may appear to be "unasked questions" is more than likely a case of "we haven't arrived at that point of the trial yet" (or a simple case of "it doesn't matter because wait until we question this witness and then you'll understand). I keep trying to remind myself of this when I find myself wondering why this, or why not that. As for Adam Carter's live blog - no two ways about it, he's doing a fantastic job. Grateful we have "trial by twitter" even if it sounds like I'm being a smarty pants about that. I'm really not.
 
  • #122
Abro , in your opinion, is the actual company and its name important in any aspect to Williams' testimony in this case? What about her husband? TIA
 
  • #123
As family, friends and community supporting the Bosma's, THIS. These lawyers aren't missing anything and are doing their job so well, during such a difficult time. Being in the courtroom and then coming home to digest it all day to day, is very difficult. But one thing that isn't difficult, is having faith in the Crown.

My heart goes out to those who this has affected the most. I don't know what it feels like to walk in your shoes but I do know many all across Canada are still praying for you all every single day. :heartbeat:
 
  • #124
Abro , in your opinion, is the actual company and its name important in any aspect to Williams' testimony in this case? What about her husband? TIA

I honestly don't know. Like everyone else here, I am waiting to see.
 
  • #125
As family, friends and community supporting the Bosma's, THIS. These lawyers aren't missing anything and are doing their job so well, during such a difficult time. Being in the courtroom and then coming home to digest it all day to day, is very difficult. But one thing that isn't difficult, is having faith in the Crown.

BBM. The Crown knows the big picture. They know all the details, whether important or not, and they will present the most relevant points to support their case.

Us sleuthers, on the other hand, do not know the big picture, nor do we know how each little detail fits into it. We have a desire to absorb every detail in order to understand what's happening. We wonder why the Crown didn't ask a question about some matter or another. It's natural to be curious. But it's always important to maintain faith in the Crown. As the trial unfolds the story will begin to make more and more sense.
 
  • #126
I honestly don't know. Like everyone else here, I am waiting to see.

Thanks Abro. I do find it interesting that the company does not have a website considering the IT connection. JMO
 
  • #127
I went back and edited a post where I suggested the Crown may have missed a question when examining the bookkeeper. What I meant was, since I'm an accountant I really wanted to grill the bookkeeper on some points! Of course, the Crown obviously didn't need to ask those questions for their purposes. I apologize to everyone if it sounded like I was criticizing the Crown.
 
  • #128
Thanks Abro. I do find it interesting that the company does not have a website considering the IT connection. JMO
Considering it's 2016 and websites are a dime a dozen, I echo your observation. But then, I'm also amazed at the website that Millardair had back in May 2013. I haven't seen anything like that for a decade. I'm thinking it was a DreamWeaver site? I'd also love to know what changed in the millardair.ca domain registration on Feb 24/16. Anyhow, Engium Inc. is the right company name:

http://listings.fta-companies-ca.com/l/111001005/Engium-Inc-in-Mississauga-ON
 
  • #129
  • #130
  • #131
I don't think anyone has asked, how can money be really tight and the bank accounts emptying mere months after a $3.7 million injection of cash?

Well, it was almost 7 months after the injection, we don't know how much WM was able to spend of it before his demise, and how much was already earmarked for outstanding bills before the loan was even approved.

The only income we're aware of that was coming in to pay for all of the expenses (utilities, taxes etc) of all of the properties and the business after the death of CM was the rental income from the six-plex and the condo. I'm sure WM sold off a lot of things in the years after CM passed to maintain his income/bank balance, including the remainder of the aircraft with the exception of the ones still in the new hangar. When the loan first came through, there were 14 "employees" on the payroll and either 1 or 2 non employees. 13 people were laid off shortly after the loan came through and were paid severance. 3 were left on the payroll. And at that point it's unlikely there was anything of any real value to sell to increase the bank balance other than the property investments. From the moment the first shovel went into the ground for the new hangar...it was all expenses with no incoming funds to speak of other than possible returns on cash investments. WM must also have had to dip heavily into any investments there may have been just to maintain things for himself personally and the properties while the new hangar was being built. And of course we have no idea how much investment was done over the years and how much actual "money" they had in investments, above and beyond the property investments but I doubt there was much. CM seemed more like a re-invest in the business kind of guy than an invest in other commodities kind of guy but I'm just guessing. Obviously LE has looked into the finances and considers this reason for motive so I'm going to have to assume there wasn't a lot left.

And then of course there is the curious cash purchase of a $627,000 condo and the budgeted expense of a $50,000 drive shed. And contrary to what DM's lawyer thinks, a salary of $125,000 before taxes is not much and is actually less than the average middle class family makes when there are two people working. And it doesn't go far when you are maintaining at least one property where the property taxes alone are about $7500 a year (Maple Gate) and you're driving around as much as DM appeared to, in large gas guzzling trucks, plus all the travel and hobbies including the expense of those (NAPA was calling daily looking for orders) and just the daily expenses of someone who probably never though much about what things cost, although he did seem to love a bargain. Even expenses like guns and drugs have come up in this case. And strangely, a lot of that was also probably being filtered through MA even though there was no income to pay it. So there is just a LOT of expenses going out and nothing coming in.

Wouldn't have taken long for the 3.7 million to have depleted significantly enough for DM to not want to throw another $25,000 away on a used truck just to tow his jeep and trailer to Baja IMO. He didn't really need it for any other reason. And my personal opinion of the $18,000 figure that LW quoted to LE 3 years ago, was that it was what DM probably estimated he would need for the whole trip, including fuel, hotel, food and registration and LW just misinterpreted what was said about it being just the registration and the other expenses were on top of that figure.

I also think the testimony about the drive shed is/was significant and that MB was instrumental in making her son realize that he was running out of cash quick. Therefore he had to downsize and start selling stuff off and perhaps investing the profits if he wanted to continue on with his current lifestyle. And I think that was going to include selling the hangar and the Maple Gate house, moving his toys and "business" to the drive shed on the farm and living in the downtown condo while collecting some income from the two rental properties. I think she was trying to help stop the outflow of money from the family coffers which was on a path to draining them dry and turn it around.

MOO
 
  • #132
That may be, but to buy into that I'd have to believe that WM had his ex-wife of 10+ years being paid outside the scope of Revenue Canada's requirement for deductions? Was he giving her a draw or something? AFAIK, Millardair would have had to be on quarterly remittances at a minimum. DM was a Director of Millardair and carried the title of CEO. I believe his pay could be legally accounted for as a draw and perhaps looked after by shareholders loans or something. IIRC, prior to WM's death, MB was not an officer for Millardair, had no ability to take or give shareholders loans. If she was in fact an employee prior, she would have been on the payroll and the bookkeeper would have had to make at the minimum, quarterly remittances on her behalf.

IMO, the bookkeeper knew how many people were on the payroll by the number of people she remitted for. When WM died and everyone was let go, she only had one- SS. Once MB became an officer/director for Millardair she would have been able to take draws from Millardair and not have to be processed as an employee. That's not to say she still doesn't have to claim it, but there's only a few ways to legally get money from a company, but it still has to be documented and declared as income, dividend or a loan or payback for a loan. It's been a while since I've had to deal with stuff like this, but IIRC, if you're an owner- you can borrow or take a draw, and if you're not an owner, you're either an independent contractor (working for more than one company) or and employee. The point to remember is that in the eyes of the law and the CRA, Millardair is it's own entity. Just because you're the son, daughter or mother of the owner(s) doesn't mean the company can pay you cash or give you a taxable benefit and circumvent the tax system. MOO

Why do you think she doesn't pay taxes? LW said there were 3 people on payroll - SS, DM & MB - but that there was no occupation or title listed for DM or MB. Now MB is the only one left on payroll, she has control of the company, and is receiving $5,000 gross per month. Where are you getting that there was only 1 person on payroll?
 
  • #133
2 things that I have wondered about...

I agree that LW has not come across as a very good witness...but aren't witnesses supposed to avoid all media/info on the trial prior to taking the stand? If she has honestly done that, and kept up a friendly enough relationship that she visited him in prison and kept in touch with the mother, I can see how she could be swayed or convinced by whatever story she's been told by the both of them.

And secondly, all the reference to the letters and the DNC list...isn't it possible LE was well aware that DM was violating it but it was beneficial to their investigation to let it occur...thereby giving them the justification to pursue a search warrant? The letters contained info that was pertinent to the case(s)? I have a very hard time believing they weren't monitoring or reviewing everything that was in and outbound to DM. Especially once it became obvious there was multiple murders involved. All MOO.
 
  • #134
And secondly, all the reference to the letters and the DNC list...isn't it possible LE was well aware that DM was violating it but it was beneficial to their investigation to let it occur...thereby giving them the justification to pursue a search warrant? The letters contained info that was pertinent to the case(s)? I have a very hard time believing they weren't monitoring or reviewing everything that was in and outbound to DM. Especially once it became obvious there was multiple murders involved. All MOO.

rsbm

That could be. Perhaps that's what was allowed when MS breached the no contact order as well. JMO

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5262706-co-accused-in-bosma-murder-case-faces-new-charge/
 
  • #135
Considering it's 2016 and websites are a dime a dozen, I echo your observation. But then, I'm also amazed at the website that Millardair had back in May 2013. I haven't seen anything like that for a decade. I'm thinking it was a DreamWeaver site? I'd also love to know what changed in the millardair.ca domain registration on Feb 24/16. Anyhow, Engium Inc. is the right company name:

http://listings.fta-companies-ca.com/l/111001005/Engium-Inc-in-Mississauga-ON

It appears that both domain names, Millardair.com and Millardair.ca, which were both registered to MA, expired and were not renewed on February 21st of this month, 2016. Millardair.ca seems to have been purchased by someone in Toronto as of Feb 24, 2016. Looks like GoDaddy picked up the other one.

https://whois.net/

MOO
 
  • #136
flipflop said:
SS currently has a camero for sale on a collector car website....his message to potential buyers

No Lowball offers please
No test pilots

Just wanted to point out that, in this type of scenario, a "test pilot" is someone who has no intention of buying the car and only wants to drive it for the sheer fun of it. The seller wants serious offers only and are basically saying "don't waste my time". No sinister secret message here.
 
  • #137
2 things that I have wondered about...

I agree that LW has not come across as a very good witness...but aren't witnesses supposed to avoid all media/info on the trial prior to taking the stand? If she has honestly done that, and kept up a friendly enough relationship that she visited him in prison and kept in touch with the mother, I can see how she could be swayed or convinced by whatever story she's been told by the both of them.

And secondly, all the reference to the letters and the DNC list...isn't it possible LE was well aware that DM was violating it but it was beneficial to their investigation to let it occur...thereby giving them the justification to pursue a search warrant? The letters contained info that was pertinent to the case(s)? I have a very hard time believing they weren't monitoring or reviewing everything that was in and outbound to DM. Especially once it became obvious there was multiple murders involved. All MOO.

I too, suspect LE knew of the outgoing letters and let them pile up. I don't think they could have seized them if CN weren't on the dnc list.
LW may have trouble getting clients now with this lousy publicity.
 
  • #138
2 things that I have wondered about...

I agree that LW has not come across as a very good witness...but aren't witnesses supposed to avoid all media/info on the trial prior to taking the stand? If she has honestly done that, and kept up a friendly enough relationship that she visited him in prison and kept in touch with the mother, I can see how she could be swayed or convinced by whatever story she's been told by the both of them.

And secondly, all the reference to the letters and the DNC list...isn't it possible LE was well aware that DM was violating it but it was beneficial to their investigation to let it occur...thereby giving them the justification to pursue a search warrant? The letters contained info that was pertinent to the case(s)? I have a very hard time believing they weren't monitoring or reviewing everything that was in and outbound to DM. Especially once it became obvious there was multiple murders involved. All MOO.

RBBM

Is that true, are all the potential witnesses warned to avoid the media until they testify? I know that they are not allowed to attend court until they have had their turn, but is this to say that MB hasn't been following along on the media or even here, for example?

Just curious, as I was thinking earlier as I read through the thread that any potential witnesses reading here might be terrified to testify, knowing that they will likely be eviserated for things as inconsequential as their choice of clothes that day, or fear that a likely unfounded suspicion of them may now potentially ruin their careers.

All my opinion only.
 
  • #139
rsbm

That could be. Perhaps that's what was allowed when MS breached the no contact order as well. JMO

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5262706-co-accused-in-bosma-murder-case-faces-new-charge/

Why do I always forget that MS was charged for sending letters to his girlfriend! Thanks for the reminder. When this happened, I always assumed that DM would be charged for the same thing any day. But he never was, was he? Is that weird, that they would charge one and not the other for apparently doing the same thing?

Looking back, I would have assumed that this charge came up when CN was charged, in the second wave of charges, in April of 2014. But this article says he was charged in January of 2015, how strange. When was MWJ charged again? I wonder if they have any of the letters MS wrote to MM, and if they were still together then, almost 2 years after his arrest, do we know if they still are now?
 
  • #140
Why do you think she doesn't pay taxes? LW said there were 3 people on payroll - SS, DM & MB - but that there was no occupation or title listed for DM or MB. Now MB is the only one left on payroll, she has control of the company, and is receiving $5,000 gross per month. Where are you getting that there was only 1 person on payroll?

IMO, payroll is another word that's getting caught in the crossfire here. There's "an owner on the payroll"- meaning they're taking money from the Company and then there's "employees on the payroll" which means an official employee of the Company and the company is making remittance payments for them. MSM isn't differentiating. The 13 people DM let go were definitely "employees on the payroll".

This is a good article to explain how owners can get paid by a Corporation they own. It hasn't been disclosed how DM was getting paid.

http://www.canadaone.com/ezine/expert/expert_qa.html?id=04apr20_2

"When Dellen took over, he let go of 13 employees, keeping just one: Shane Schlatman."
http://m.thespec.com/news-story/634...a-trial-hears-about-accused-killer-s-finances

Adam Carter: "The only people being paid by MIllardAir after Dellen Millard took over were Millard himself, his mother, and Shane Schlatman, Williams says."

http://mobile.scribblelive.com/Event/The_Tim_Bosma_trial_Feb_24?Page=8&ThemeId=1881

"But as was the case before Millard's arrest, she said the business is still not bringing in any income.

The hangar was sold in April 2015, she told the jury, and the only person left on the payroll is Madeleine Burns (Millard's mother) who is paid $5,000 gross per month. There's no physical space left for any business to be done, she said."


http://m.hamiltonnews.com/news-stor...lardair-bookkeeper-says-money-was-very-tight-

At any rate, I wasnt insinuating taxes weren't being paid. If anyone is getting paid 5K a month gross, it would be subject to income tax-either collected at source, or paid when personal income tax is filed. MOO
 
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