Burke did NOT kill JonBenet

[CloudedTruth]

Good question. In my childhood world it seemed like sole custody was a simpler decision back then of physical custody without a a legal plan for visitation or child support but would still have contact.

Yes, less complicated. And had JR fought for shared custody it would very likely have been part of the court record that he was having an affair. Having custody means you have to be around and actively taking care of the kids. He worked a lot, even back then. From what we know of JR and his ideas about it being the wife / mother's responsibility to take care of the kids, I think he preferred to just pay the bills and let Lucinda do the heavy lifting of parenting.

 

[GRT]

I see a way - they did not want Burke to be in the presence of police to ask questions or say anything that would indicate they or he knew something.

I rather do not see why would parents who's one child has really been kidnapped by a foreign faction need to send their other child away from police protection.

I just feel as though the Ramseys would have kept Burke very close to monitor what he said, if he'd killed his sister. It would be too big of a risk that he'd tell someone at the Whites--where many people were still staying for the holidays.

 

[Ponytale]

Do you know anything regarding discrepancies centered on a bicycle(s)s and whether one or two were given as
Christmas gifts that year? Or, if the children had bicycles?

I know the questions that have been raised regarding the bicycles and a also posted a comment on that matter some time ago.
There were bicycles given as Christmas gifts that year and both children had previously owned bicycles - JB had grown out of hers and Burke had his old one. To my understanding, there could have been 3 bicycles given as Christmas presents that year.

A Youtuber has posted pretty detailed accounts (police investigation transcripts / video, news interviews and a variety of photos) that one, or both parents either gave possibly discrepant or "fuzzy" answers regarding the subject of children's bicycles.

Yes, that is true. I also posted a comment on the matter of discrepancies of that topic some time ago.

Yet.... family photos, police photos, and a later interview with BR all show or suggest bicycles in the home and that at least one was given as a Christmas gift.

Yes, there were bicycles given as Christmas presents that year and it has been confirmed by the photographs. The confusion came from the number of the bicycles. They changed their statements regarding that.

There could be many explanations for the discrepancies or vagueness including: stress, a disagreement over when, say, JBR should risk riding one, and ....the possibility of whether JBR rode her brother's bike and triggered a rage of some sort.

I agree. We do not know the reason why they changed their statements on that topic and on many other topics. It also could have been done on purpose, or it also could not really mean anything... we probably will never know.

 

[Ponytale]

I just feel as though the Ramseys would have kept Burke very close to monitor what he said, if he'd killed his sister.

But if he did not know that he did it, then there would be nothing incriminating that he could say, is there?

Lets think about it.

If it was only an accident caused by Burke. He hit her in his fit of anger, not meaning to kill her. He was a 9-year old boy who saw his sister collapsing on the floor. He must have been shocked and afraid after he saw it, right? His sister was unconscious on the floor after all, and did not respond anymore. After he possibly tried to wake her up by calling her name and poking/shaking her, he must have at some point called out for his parents to come and help him. John and Patsy arrived and rushed to assist and deal with JB. They must have asked Burke (because a parent would want to now what happened) about what happened and Burke had no reason to hide the truth as it was obvious to everyone that something bad had happened - he told them he had hit her hard on the head. Patsy and John were now panicking, trying to help JB and wake her up, and did not have the time to attend to Burke who would have been standing right by there in shock and crying because of all that was happening around him. So I see that he was possibly sent away to bed so that Patsy and John could concentrate on helping Jonbenet.

It is all possible, isn't it? I sure have acted this way as a parent. When one of my kids fell down from a bunk-bed a few years ago it resulted in him biting into his lip as he fell, and there was a whole lot of blood. I rushed to the room as he and his siblings were crying there to see what had happened, and two of my other kids (I have 4 by the way) started anxiously explaining to me what had happened and how they did not see or could not do anything to help and that it was an accident. As I was attending to my child who was hurt I was not able to attend to my other two who were standing there crying and panicking and I asked them to go away from that room so that I had my full attention to the child that needed me the most in that moment. After the situation was solved and myself too calmed down a bit, I went down and talked to my other kids about it all and I was able to comfort them again. It is logical, right?

So, after they possibly had sent Burke away to his room, for the same reasons I just explained, he could have just spent the night in his room sleeping. It is a possibility, right?
If he spent the rest of the night in his room, then there is a possibility that he did not know about anything that had happened later in the night.

He possibly did not know about the cover up/staging taking place down in the basement and was hoping, just like a kid would do, that everything will be okay again in the morning. Kids would think that in stressful situations, hoping that their parents would come and fix whatever had happened. He possibly could have been afraid to leave his room to check if everything was okay, and just stayed in his bed waiting for someone to come to talk to him. Just like he said he did in his interviews. And possibly, John did come to his room early in the morning (after the staging and cover up was done and before 911 call was made), waking him up and told him simply something along the lines of "JonBenet woke up later (after that accident) and all was fine with her. We all went to bed soon after you did, but something bad happened in the middle of the night - someone broke in to our house and kidnapped Jonbenet." - Just like has said in his interviews.

He was a 9-year-old child and would have believed his parents. He came downstairs when he heard his mom "getting into the role to make a 9-1-1 call. "Going psycho" - just like he said in his interviews. He heard Patsy telling the phrase: "Just found a note..." to the 9-1-1 operator, and he genuinely asked his father: "What did you find?" (just like it has been stated to have been heard on the enhanced version of the 911 call), because he did not know anything about any note. John then replied to him: "We're not/I'm not speaking to you." (like it is supposedly have been heard on the enhanced version of the 911 call), because they weren't speaking to him but to an operator. He was possibly sent back to bed and told to stay there until they will come there to get him. And he did so.

There was no "coaching" needed at all if he did not know of anything. All they had to tell Burke was along the lines of: "You are not allowed to ever talk to anyone about the accident that happened the night before." and that is it. There was nothing for John or Patsy to be afraid of because he just could not have said anything incriminating other than about the accident that happened on the night before.
Maybe even making him promise that he never will, because a "promise" means a lot for a child. He was seen by detectives that morning being distraught and crying - just like you would expect from a child who has been told that his sister was kidnapped.

Now where would you want that child to be? At home where there are a lot of police and other people around and where he could still tell someone about the "accident" or ask questions that they did not want to be asked? Or would you send that child away from that all to a friends house where he can be occupied playing his Nintendo and probably will not even think about it much.

But I somehow do still think that while at the Whites, he did say something there that made the Whites doubt about what was actually going on and they started to put the puzzle pieces together. Maybe something along the lines of "JB did ..... and I got angry at her and hit her, but my parents told me that she was fine anyway after that." And I see all that to be the reason behind the Whites behavior and their falling out later.


Now I know that there are lot of "what if's" in here, and after all it is just my opinion not at all a fact, but I believe it simply because it, IMO, explains a lot of things that many other theories do not explain.

 

[GRT]

But if he did not know that he did it, then there would be nothing incriminating that he could say, is there?

RSBM for focus. I have just a minute but I'll try to answer more of your post later.

It looks like LE did interview Burke at 7 am and then later, at White's house.

But, from Perfect Murder, Perfect Town:

"After Burke was interviewed on January 8, the police
wondered if he had held back any information about
JonBenét’s death. Burke’s return to school sent a strong
message to the police and the FBI. They were certain that
parents who knew their child had relevant but concealed
information would not allow him to get involved in a
situation where he could talk freely to others. If he had
secrets, Burke could easily share them with classmates he
trusted. Burke’s return to school seemed to close the door
on the possibility that he knew something he hadn’t told
investigators."

I think that's highly relevant to the case.

 

[lonetraveler]

The blow to JonBenets skull was the the primary cause of death. If JonBenet would have received medical attention immediately, she would have survived.
Burke Ramsey, pertaining to the skull fracture- would not be responsible for his sisters death.
The ligature strangulation is a whole nother matter. The SA is a whole nother matter.
But if the skull fracture is the only part of the scenario that BR did, he is not responsible IMO.

The SA done at the time of murder or right after the murder could have been done for the sole purpose of hiding previous SA. The person doing the damage to her during the staging could have thought that investigators would not be able to tell that some of the damage was from a previous time. JMO

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

I just feel as though the Ramseys would have kept Burke very close to monitor what he said, if he'd killed his sister. It would be too big of a risk that he'd tell someone at the Whites--where many people were still staying for the holidays.

Respectfully, this was discussed up thread. Yet I won’t be able to locate it now. And there was some belief or consensus then that having the son at another residence might have been the lesser of two possible ‘evils’. Having him unavailable for initial police questions might have been deliberate. Sort of like IIRC the R family seems to have been unavailable for police questioning early in the case if memory serves. And if there is one thing to be learned from these threads…. it is not always practical to ascribe reason or rationale thoughts to actions made by individuals that might exhibit criminal behavior. MOO

 

[CloudedTruth]

RSBM for focus. I have just a minute but I'll try to answer more of your post later.

It looks like LE did interview Burke at 7 am and then later, at White's house.

But, from Perfect Murder, Perfect Town:

"After Burke was interviewed on January 8, the police
wondered if he had held back any information about
JonBenét’s death. Burke’s return to school sent a strong
message to the police and the FBI. They were certain that
parents who knew their child had relevant but concealed
information would not allow him to get involved in a
situation where he could talk freely to others. If he had
secrets, Burke could easily share them with classmates he
trusted. Burke’s return to school seemed to close the door
on the possibility that he knew something he hadn’t told
investigators."

I think that's highly relevant to the case.

They did not interview BR at 7AM. JR would not allow it. An officer started to approach him, JR intercepted and that was the end of that. Det. Patterson was able to ask a few questions later at the White's house but BR seemed to be confused between the 24th & the 25th. He also was more interested in eating a sandwich and expressed his excitement to go to Charlevoix and spoke about building a fire there. He did not ask about JB.

When he was interviewed by Dr. Bernhard the child psychologist about a week later, she asked him if he had any secrets. His response was that he did, but he would not say what they were, telling Dr. Bernhard that if he did tell her they would no longer be secrets. The kid was pretty buttoned up.

 

[AddieBoo]

I have not seen anyone writing about a theory where they believe John is 100% innocent and Burke did it all (including SA) 100% all by himself. Or if, they are in a minority. People here discuss on many different theories and possibilities of what could have happened.

I for one do not see John as innocent. I believe he could be behind the SA. What I struggle with is if he did it also during the point of staging the crime, because I have not seen clear evidence of it. Yes there was blood and acute SA, but it could have also come from SA that occurred that night but some time before the staging part. It is a possibility.

IMO the biggest reason why I believe Burkes involvement is that there is staging and cover up done for the crime. Yes it could be done to cover up for each other too and I have never argued that. I just believe that it was done to cover up for Burke.

It is all my opinion and I am not here to persuade anyone to start believing the same. I accept and respect other theories and debate with them in a friendly manner. So I would just like to believe that we can all here feel free to discuss our theories, no matter if we think alike or not.

I have not seen anyone writing about a theory where they believe John is 100% innocent and Burke did it all (including SA) 100% all by himself. Or if, they are in a minority. People here discuss on many different theories and possibilities of what could have happened.

I for one do not see John as innocent. I believe he could be behind the SA. What I struggle with is if he did it also during the point of staging the crime, because I have not seen clear evidence of it. Yes there was blood and acute SA, but it could have also come from SA that occurred that night but some time before the staging part. It is a possibility.

IMO the biggest reason why I believe Burkes involvement is that there is staging and cover up done for the crime. Yes it could be done to cover up for each other too and I have never argued that. I just believe that it was done to cover up for Burke.

It is all my opinion and I am not here to persuade anyone to start believing the same. I accept and respect other theories and debate with them in a friendly manner. So I would just like to believe that we can all here feel free to discuss our theories, no matter if we think alike or not.

They did not interview BR at 7AM. JR would not allow it. An officer started to approach him, JR intercepted and that was the end of that. Det. Patterson was able to ask a few questions later at the White's house but BR seemed to be confused between the 24th & the 25th. He also was more interested in eating a sandwich and expressed his excitement to go to Charlevoix and spoke about building a fire there. He did not ask about JB.

When he was interviewed by Dr. Bernhard the child psychologist about a week later, she asked him if he had any secrets. His response was that he did, but he would not say what they were, telling Dr. Bernhard that if he did tell her they would no longer be secrets. The kid was pretty buttoned up.

What is going on with this child?
There is “buttoned up” yes, ok, I agree. But what child, what 10 year old can behave with this remarkable poise and confidence in the wake of a catastrophic event? This is not a kid from a savy crime family…
…. And he wanted to build fires in Charlevoix...
Maybe that was the most telling statement about his mental state…
Rage.

 

[Swirlz]

They did not interview BR at 7AM. JR would not allow it. An officer started to approach him, JR intercepted and that was the end of that. Det. Patterson was able to ask a few questions later at the White's house but BR seemed to be confused between the 24th & the 25th. He also was more interested in eating a sandwich and expressed his excitement to go to Charlevoix and spoke about building a fire there. He did not ask about JB.

When he was interviewed by Dr. Bernhard the child psychologist about a week later, she asked him if he had any secrets. His response was that he did, but he would not say what they were, telling Dr. Bernhard that if he did tell her they would no longer be secrets. The kid was pretty buttoned up.

Patterson asked more than just "a few" questions. The first page of the Patterson interview can be found online. The questions are fairly detailed and rather extensive. Presumably it was an adult who served BR the sandwich. It was Kolar's and not Patterson's interpretation that this was problematic in some way. BR at age almost ten, would know that if JBR were either dead or seriously injured that they wouldn't be going on a trip and building a fire. Previously, the White's daughter had hidden in the house and the White's, unable to find her, called the police. BR would probably have known about this. BR has stated he told a responding officer he thought JBR was probably hiding in the house somewhere. It's possible he didn't ask because he simply assumed JBR was hiding in the house and that they'd find her.

It's fairly obvious Dr. Bernhard believed BR had either been exposed to or had experienced abuse. She didn't believe he was involved. She described him as protective of his family.

 

[Swirlz]

But what child, what 10 year old can behave with this remarkable poise and confidence in the wake of a catastrophic event?

A child who has been exposed to or who has experienced dysfunction or abuse within the home.

…. And he wanted to build fires in Charlevoix...
Maybe that was the most telling statement about his mental state…
Rage.

He was excited about getting to build "a" fire, presumably a campfire.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Patterson asked more than just "a few" questions. The first page of the Patterson interview can be found online. The questions are fairly detailed and rather extensive. Presumably it was an adult who served BR the sandwich. It was Kolar's and not Patterson's interpretation that this was problematic in some way. BR at age almost ten, would know that if JBR were either dead or seriously injured that they wouldn't be going on a trip and building a fire. Previously, the White's daughter had hidden in the house and the White's, unable to find her, called the police. BR would probably have known about this. BR has stated he told a responding officer he thought JBR was probably hiding in the house somewhere. It's possible he didn't ask because he simply assumed JBR was hiding in the house and that they'd find her.

It's fairly obvious Dr. Bernhard believed BR had either been exposed to or had experienced abuse. She didn't believe he was involved. She described him as protective of his family.

I didn’t word that very well. What I meant to say was that it wasn’t an extensive interview. Not like the interviews that came after.

I think given what he was aware of that had occurred that morning, PR going psycho, a room full of people and police, and his own admission being scared, that he knew it was a serious situation. Kids pick up more than we think they do. I don’t see his demeanor as problematic. It seems to be uniquely Burke. Part of why there is so much speculation about him being on the spectrum.

Dr. Bernhardt also noted that he was flat and unemotional. That seems to track with his demeanor in the Patterson interview.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Here's one of the reasons I feel there's no chance that Burke killed his sister and his parents staged the scene.

If that had happened, there's no way the Ramseys would have let Burke go to the White's house--because they would have been afraid he'd tell what happened.

I

"Burke if you breathe one word , one single word mom and dad will go to jail, who knows what will happen to you. You will be poor and never get another Nintendo or new games ever!"

.Done

 

[Charlot123]

I didn’t word that very well. What I meant to say was that it wasn’t an extensive interview. Not like the interviews that came after.

I think given what he was aware of that had occurred that morning, PR going psycho, a room full of people and police, and his own admission being scared, that he knew it was a serious situation. Kids pick up more than we think they do. I don’t see his demeanor as problematic. It seems to be uniquely Burke. Part of why there is so much speculation about him being on the spectrum.

Dr. Bernhardt also noted that he was flat and unemotional. That seems to track with his demeanor in the Patterson interview.

Now, I can only judge by "BR being interviewed as an adult."

Burke is the offspring of two people of whom, one is detached, disciplined and logical and the other was slightly dramatic and yet somewhat odd as well. In one interview I saw Patsy as a very good actress; she bypassed the truth by focusing on doing something physical and kept her voice flat at that moment. I forgot what it was about, but definitely, she was a trained actress.

But both parents, give or take, were exceptionally high-functioning. After all, if it was an inside deal, and I think it was, they got away with it.

So what i saw in Burke is what Dr. Phil probably observed. Logical detachment of his father plus good looks, humor and surprisingly, acting talent of his mother. I tried to imagine myself in that situation - say, as a kid, I was accidentally involved in a horrible situation. How would I cope? Probably, by denial. I'd try to erase or suppress that night. If asked about it, I'd probably feign "la belle indifference" (Patsy's reaction in a couple of moments.)

Burke was going with the flow. I was somewhat surprised by Dr. Phil's questions. (About heaven - unless he absolutely knows that Burke is a believer, I would not automatically assume so.) But Burke played a timidly affable "yes, sir" man. Yes, sir, I imagine mom and JB in heaven. Yes, sir, I talk to JB. And then came a question that I never expected Dr. Phil to ask because IMHO it was a huge invasion of privacy, what do you say to your sister JB?

And that's where I saw Patsy in Burke. He smiled or rather, grinned, and nonchalantly said, see, JB you are having good time up there and i am studying for the exams... They spoke about the exams before, Burke mentioned them being difficult and he continued along the same vein. I don't know if he expected the question, but if not, it was a good strategy.

I doubt that BR spoke to JB about his exams but IMHO Dr. Phil did not deserve anything better for an answer.

And then, compare it with the way Burke describes their upbringing. I think he was very sincere at that moment. I feel that he loves his mom and that he missed all his childhood, the way it used to be before it all happened.

 

[GRT]

"Burke if you breathe one word , one single word mom and dad will go to jail, who knows what will happen to you. You will be poor and never get another Nintendo or new games ever!"

.Done

But that's such a stretch. MOO

Young children are blabbermouths. The FBI understood the way the Ramseys were putting Burke out there--and trying to give him some semblance of a normal life--was indicative of Burke having no knowledge of either himself or his parents being involved in his sister's death.

They weren't trying to keep their child from talking.

 

[Ponytale]

RSBM for focus. I have just a minute but I'll try to answer more of your post later.

It looks like LE did interview Burke at 7 am and then later, at White's house.

But, from Perfect Murder, Perfect Town:

"After Burke was interviewed on January 8, the police
wondered if he had held back any information about
JonBenét’s death. Burke’s return to school sent a strong
message to the police and the FBI. They were certain that
parents who knew their child had relevant but concealed
information would not allow him to get involved in a
situation where he could talk freely to others. If he had
secrets, Burke could easily share them with classmates he
trusted. Burke’s return to school seemed to close the door
on the possibility that he knew something he hadn’t told
investigators."

I think that's highly relevant to the case.

And this segment from the book only supports my point that he did not know of anything that had happened during the night and the staging. IMO

Edited to add: And the Ramsey's sending Burke to school so soon after their daughter had been murdered in their house by an intruder form a foreign faction only points that there was nothing to be concerned about.

The strong message to the FBI, IMO, should have been that - no parent who states publicly that "a crazy monster is on the loose and you should keep your babies close to you", would send their baby away to a public school soon after the murder without any fear of Foreign Faction coming after him too.

 

[Ponytale]

But that's such a stretch. MOO

Young children are blabbermouths. The FBI understood the way the Ramseys were putting Burke out there--and trying to give him some semblance of a normal life--was indicative of Burke having no knowledge of either himself or his parents being involved in his sister's death.

They weren't trying to keep their child from talking.

This is not a stretch at all. IMO

I have kept one "secret" from my childhood to this day because I was intimidated by an adult not to tell when I was 8 years old. And I will keep it until I die.

It is quite easy to manipulate children that way, especially if a threat is involved.
Think about child victims of SA for an example - rarely do they tell because they will be threatened that if they will tell to anyone "this or that will happen".

The persons who child trusts the most are parents. If that child's parents make a child promise something that promise is worth a lot more than a promise made to another child. If that child's parents threaten him with a consequence, that child takes it seriously enough to keep quiet.

I have studied child psychology and I know what I'm talking about from personal experiences too. Yes, there are and will be exceptions, but there are also general rules of predictable behavior.

 

[GRT]

They did not interview BR at 7AM. JR would not allow it. An officer started to approach him, JR intercepted and that was the end of that. Det. Patterson was able to ask a few questions later at the White's house but BR seemed to be confused between the 24th & the 25th. He also was more interested in eating a sandwich and expressed his excitement to go to Charlevoix and spoke about building a fire there. He did not ask about JB.

When he was interviewed by Dr. Bernhard the child psychologist about a week later, she asked him if he had any secrets. His response was that he did, but he would not say what they were, telling Dr. Bernhard that if he did tell her they would no longer be secrets. The kid was pretty buttoned up.

One of the biggest problems in this case -- MOO -- was the media and tabloid lies from almost Day One. And then to further muddy the waters, the BPD refused to dispel the lies.

From the book, "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town:"

"Next Patrick Burke spoke up. He said he didn’t like the
false information being circulated in the press about Burke
Ramsey. The media repeatedly said that the boy hadn’t
been interviewed by the police. The lawyer reminded Hunter that Burke had been interviewed twice, once on December 26 by Detective Patterson and a second time on January 8 by child psychologist Dr. Suzanne Bernhard, yet the Boulder police kept giving the public the impression that no interviews of the boy had taken place. The lawyer wanted Hunter to “stand up and be courageous” and set the record straight."

 

[GRT]

This is not a stretch at all. IMO

I have kept one "secret" from my childhood to this day because I was intimidated by an adult not to tell when I was 8 years old. And I will keep it until I die.

It is quite easy to manipulate children that way, especially if a threat is involved.
Think about child victims of SA for an example - rarely do they tell because they will be threatened that if they will tell to anyone "this or that will happen".

The persons who child trusts the most are parents. If that child's parents make a child promise something that promise is worth a lot more than a promise made to another child. If that child's parents threaten him with a consequence, that child takes it seriously enough to keep quiet.

I have studied child psychology and I know what I'm talking about from personal experiences too. Yes, there are and will be exceptions, but there are also general rules of predictable behavior.

I agree with some of those points, such as children being scared into not telling a secret.

But, typically, parents still try to isolate children if they're threatening those children to keep a horrific secret.

The Ramseys were pushing Burke out in public.

That's a huge risk—and not just to Burke. If Burke had done something or held any secret knowledge, it also risked the freedom of John and Patsy.

For me, the BDI and subsequent cover-up theory are a bridge too far. Given the history of the Ramseys, nothing suggests they would harm one of their children.

 

[Ponytale]

I agree with some of those points, such as children being scared into not telling a secret.
But, typically, parents still try to isolate children if they're threatening those children to keep a horrific secret.

No, not necessarily. Again, think about the child SA victims - how are they being isolated? It is actually rather rare that an abuser is trying to keep the victim to himself or keeps the child out of the fear. By keeping the child secluded or isolated the abuser draws unnecessary attention to himself/herself. They are not stupid. It is rather quite the opposite. Abusers usually like to keep things as normal as it could be, so that nobody can suspect anything.

The Ramseys were pushing Burke out in public.
That's a huge risk—and not just to Burke. If Burke had done something or held any secret knowledge, it also risked the freedom of John and Patsy.

I do not see at as a risk at all - especially if we believe that Burke did not know nothing about the staging-murder-cover up. Like I said, in that case, there would be very little for him to tell and hence very little to worry about. Even if he said to anyone that he had an argument with JB and he hit her on the head - he was told (and believed) that JB was fine and woke up and he would tell it to others too. And Patsy and John would only need to confirm it.
Quite simple and easy. IMO

For me, the BDI and subsequent cover-up theory are a bridge too far. Given the history of the Ramseys, nothing suggests they would harm one of their children.

Then we have different opinions on that matter.
I agree that nothing suggest that the Ramsey's would go and harm any of their children on purpose. But that does not exclude a possibility of accident and cover up. IMO