Burke did NOT kill JonBenet

[snarast]

But if he did not know that he did it, then there would be nothing incriminating that he could say, is there?

Lets think about it.

If it was only an accident caused by Burke. He hit her in his fit of anger, not meaning to kill her. He was a 9-year old boy who saw his sister collapsing on the floor. He must have been shocked and afraid after he saw it, right? His sister was unconscious on the floor after all, and did not respond anymore. After he possibly tried to wake her up by calling her name and poking/shaking her, he must have at some point called out for his parents to come and help him. John and Patsy arrived and rushed to assist and deal with JB. They must have asked Burke (because a parent would want to now what happened) about what happened and Burke had no reason to hide the truth as it was obvious to everyone that something bad had happened - he told them he had hit her hard on the head. Patsy and John were now panicking, trying to help JB and wake her up, and did not have the time to attend to Burke who would have been standing right by there in shock and crying because of all that was happening around him. So I see that he was possibly sent away to bed so that Patsy and John could concentrate on helping Jonbenet.

It is all possible, isn't it? I sure have acted this way as a parent. When one of my kids fell down from a bunk-bed a few years ago it resulted in him biting into his lip as he fell, and there was a whole lot of blood. I rushed to the room as he and his siblings were crying there to see what had happened, and two of my other kids (I have 4 by the way) started anxiously explaining to me what had happened and how they did not see or could not do anything to help and that it was an accident. As I was attending to my child who was hurt I was not able to attend to my other two who were standing there crying and panicking and I asked them to go away from that room so that I had my full attention to the child that needed me the most in that moment. After the situation was solved and myself too calmed down a bit, I went down and talked to my other kids about it all and I was able to comfort them again. It is logical, right?

So, after they possibly had sent Burke away to his room, for the same reasons I just explained, he could have just spent the night in his room sleeping. It is a possibility, right?
If he spent the rest of the night in his room, then there is a possibility that he did not know about anything that had happened later in the night.

He possibly did not know about the cover up/staging taking place down in the basement and was hoping, just like a kid would do, that everything will be okay again in the morning. Kids would think that in stressful situations, hoping that their parents would come and fix whatever had happened. He possibly could have been afraid to leave his room to check if everything was okay, and just stayed in his bed waiting for someone to come to talk to him. Just like he said he did in his interviews. And possibly, John did come to his room early in the morning (after the staging and cover up was done and before 911 call was made), waking him up and told him simply something along the lines of "JonBenet woke up later (after that accident) and all was fine with her. We all went to bed soon after you did, but something bad happened in the middle of the night - someone broke in to our house and kidnapped Jonbenet." - Just like has said in his interviews.

He was a 9-year-old child and would have believed his parents. He came downstairs when he heard his mom "getting into the role to make a 9-1-1 call. "Going psycho" - just like he said in his interviews. He heard Patsy telling the phrase: "Just found a note..." to the 9-1-1 operator, and he genuinely asked his father: "What did you find?" (just like it has been stated to have been heard on the enhanced version of the 911 call), because he did not know anything about any note. John then replied to him: "We're not/I'm not speaking to you." (like it is supposedly have been heard on the enhanced version of the 911 call), because they weren't speaking to him but to an operator. He was possibly sent back to bed and told to stay there until they will come there to get him. And he did so.

There was no "coaching" needed at all if he did not know of anything. All they had to tell Burke was along the lines of: "You are not allowed to ever talk to anyone about the accident that happened the night before." and that is it. There was nothing for John or Patsy to be afraid of because he just could not have said anything incriminating other than about the accident that happened on the night before.
Maybe even making him promise that he never will, because a "promise" means a lot for a child. He was seen by detectives that morning being distraught and crying - just like you would expect from a child who has been told that his sister was kidnapped.

Now where would you want that child to be? At home where there are a lot of police and other people around and where he could still tell someone about the "accident" or ask questions that they did not want to be asked? Or would you send that child away from that all to a friends house where he can be occupied playing his Nintendo and probably will not even think about it much.

But I somehow do still think that while at the Whites, he did say something there that made the Whites doubt about what was actually going on and they started to put the puzzle pieces together. Maybe something along the lines of "JB did ..... and I got angry at her and hit her, but my parents told me that she was fine anyway after that." And I see all that to be the reason behind the Whites behavior and their falling out later.


Now I know that there are lot of "what if's" in here, and after all it is just my opinion not at all a fact, but I believe it simply because it, IMO, explains a lot of things that many other theories do not explain.

I’d much rather sequence the genomes of the Whites + anybody who was connected to them in some way.

I guess we all have our favourite suspects…

 

[Swirlz]

People consistently talk about this as if all BR had to do to be able to fool investigators would be to NOT say he did it. If that were true, all JR or PR would have to do to fool investigators is NOT say they did it. But investigators didn't believe the denials of JR/PR. So how is it that BR was able to successfully pull the wool over the eyes of multiple trained investigators? These are investigators who have training in specifically how to spot signs of deception. And none of them thought he even knew anything other than that Susanne Bernhard thought he may have been exposed to abuse he didn't want to talk about.

And as for the theory that BR was manipulated by JR/PR into believing he didn't do it; just a reminder to people that this particular theory of the case is an internet creation. There is no scientific evidence to suggest an almost 10 yr. old who has struck another child hard enough to hear the crack of bone and watch her fall unconscious and who has then been told later on in the day that that child has died, could be manipulated into believing he had nothing to do with her demise and no professional who was involved in the case believed this.

 

[Ponytale]

So how is it that BR was able to successfully pull the wool over the eyes of multiple trained investigators? These are investigators who have training in specifically how to spot signs of deception. And none of them thought he even knew anything other than that Susanne Bernhard thought he may have been exposed to abuse he didn't want to talk about.

If you are referring to me - I posted a lengthy comment on that same matter just a few comments before on this same topic, explaining exactly how easy it would have been if he did not know anything. What is there that makes it so hard to see as a possibility?
They (investigators and all who saw/interviewed Burke) did not see signs of deceptions if there weren't any - check. They believed Burke knew nothing of murder - check. They believed that Burke had nothing to do with the staging - check. But yet it still so hard to even try to consider it as a possibility...

And as for the theory that BR was manipulated by JR/PR into believing he didn't do it; just a reminder to people that this particular theory of the case is an internet creation.

What is an internet creation? My theory (and I believe the same for all theories of all the posters here) is not a creation of an internet (what is an internet?) but a person - me. My theory is my own creation - my own idea. And I express it here same as we all do and I believe we all own our own ideas. Am I wrong?

There is no scientific evidence to suggest an almost 10 yr. old who has struck another child hard enough to hear the crack of bone and watch her fall unconscious and who has then been told later on in the day that that child has died, could be manipulated into believing he had nothing to do with her demise and no professional who was involved in the case believed this.

There is no evidence for many things in this case. I also see no evidence to suggest that an almost 10-year-old boy did NOT do it. That does not mean that we can not express our opinions on that topic.
But reacting is a choice - If you feel insulted by it you do not have to read it or comment on it.

 

[GRT]

No, not necessarily. Again, think about the child SA victims - how are they being isolated? It is actually rather rare that an abuser is trying to keep the victim to himself or keeps the child out of the fear. By keeping the child secluded or isolated the abuser draws unnecessary attention to himself/herself. They are not stupid. It is rather quite the opposite. Abusers usually like to keep things as normal as it could be, so that nobody can suspect anything.

From what I've studied, for the typical abuser--it's all about Power and Control, and isolation is a big part of that. In Ramsey's case, it would be more because JBR's murder was such a high profile.

I do not see at as a risk at all - especially if we believe that Burke did not know nothing about the staging-murder-cover up. Like I said, in that case, there would be very little for him to tell and hence very little to worry about. Even if he said to anyone that he had an argument with JB and he hit her on the head - he was told (and believed) that JB was fine and woke up and he would tell it to others too. And Patsy and John would only need to confirm it.
Quite simple and easy. IMO

I respect your opinion and your theory, I just don't see it as plausible. Burke was nine. And he was small for his age--I still find it unlikely he could have caused a fatal injury to JBR. But, on the rare possibility that he did -- he was old enough to connect the dots between his "accident" and his sister's death. Plus, he would know she fell to the ground and never got up again.

But the most glaring issue with this theory is the idea that--if true--JBR's parents did not seek immediate medical attention. Kids cause accidental injuries to one another on a daily basis, but loving parents don't finish off the injured child. The natural response is to seek medical help--and in JBR's case, her scalp was not split, and her parents would have no reason to think she wouldn't make it if she got immediate help. MOO

 

[Ponytale]

But, on the rare possibility that he did -- he was old enough to connect the dots between his "accident" and his sister's death. Plus, he would know she fell to the ground and never got up again.

Thank you for respecting my theory - that is all I ask. I'm not here to convince everyone to believe what I say, but I do ask for people to validate that my theory is as possible as many others that have been posted here.
Or if they see errors in my theory that do not align with facts that are known for us, please feel free to point it out to me and I will be happy to go and learn about it or explain how I see that it still could have happened.

Instead of debunking ideas and theories that are for some reason not acceptable to some, I would be happy if they would post their questions to ask for further details - If there are aspects that raise valid questions then they should be asked and I am glad to answer. I do the same.

Diminishing is not a friendly debate. IMO

Back to the topic...

I believe he did connect the dots at some point, but not at that point or sometime soon after the murder.
If he was sent to bed without seeing her not getting up how would he know she did not get up?

But the most glaring issue with this theory is the idea that--if true--JBR's parents did not seek immediate medical attention. Kids cause accidental injuries to one another on a daily basis, but loving parents don't finish off the injured child. The natural response is to seek medical help--and in JBR's case, her scalp was not split, and her parents would have no reason to think she wouldn't make it if she got immediate help. MOO

I have already expressed my opinion on that matter and I will not do it here again. But there are quite a many different reasons why they could have chosen to act the way they did that have been introduced here by many... They are all a possibility.

 

[GRT]

I’d much rather sequence the genomes of the Whites + anybody who was connected to them in some way.

I guess we all have our favourite suspects…

They are my favorite suspects, too. For many reasons.

 

[Ponytale]

And he was small for his age

I went to look for answers on that statement and did not find anything that would suggest that Burke was indeed small for his age. Where do you source it from?
I did not find his actual height at the time of the murder written anywhere. If someone does, I would appriciate it.

But I did go and look for photos where Burke and JB would be together on one photo and both of them standing up, and it seems to me that for a quite a few years the apparent height difference between them has been the same - on most of the photos JonBenet is only up to Burke's shoulders. That, IMO, is quite a height difference and does not suggest that Burke was small for his age.

 

[GRT]

I went to look for answers on that statement and did not find anything that would suggest that Burke was indeed small for his age. Where do you source it from?
I did not find his actual height at the time of the murder written anywhere. If someone does, I would appriciate it.

But I did go and look for photos where Burke and JB would be together on one photo and both standing and it seems to me that for a quite a few years the apparent height difference between them has been quite big - on most of the photos JonBenet is only up to Burke's shoulders. That, IMO, is quite a height difference and does not suggest that Burke was small for his age.

I'm mainly looking at this photo, which I think was from 1996. The two children seem very similar in size here.

 

[Ponytale]

I'm mainly looking at this photo, which I think was from 1996. The two children seem very similar in size here.

Ok, thanks for sharing!
Well, they are not both standing up on that photo so it's confusing to understand a height difference from that photo. Burke himself does not appear to be standing straight but rather leaning a bit on the back of the bike, and JB is also not standing up.
Looking at photos taken since they were little - where both of them are on the same photo and standing, the height difference seems to be somewhat consistent through the years with JB being up to Burke's shoulders. If someone knows better, I'm glad to learn.

Edited: Some references -

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/178807047699999029/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/178807047700009747/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/17803361025525289/

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

But that's such a stretch. MOO

Young children are blabbermouths. The FBI understood the way the Ramseys were putting Burke out there--and trying to give him some semblance of a normal life--was indicative of Burke having no knowledge of either himself or his parents being involved in his sister's death.

They weren't trying to keep their child from talking.

It's not a stretch. The potential consequences were were severe. ( or should have been) .
Children will lie to protect their parents. It's done all the time and they can be manipulated to do so. Children are horribly abused and mistreated and never speak of what goes on at home and still will be protective of awful parents.
Burke was almost 10. He knew the drill. I kept secrets much younger and they weren't trauma based.

 

[Slebby]

But that's such a stretch. MOO

Young children are blabbermouths. The FBI understood the way the Ramseys were putting Burke out there--and trying to give him some semblance of a normal life--was indicative of Burke having no knowledge of either himself or his parents being involved in his sister's death.

They weren't trying to keep their child from talking.

I’ve kept serious secrets since childhood. Not murder, but serious. And I will never tell.

 

[Ponytale]

It seems easy for him to keep all the secrets that he could have, as it is stated here that he still never discusses this case or talk about anything regarding JonBenet with anyone. Then it seems that he would not have much problems with keeping a secret too, would he now.

From an internet article form US Weekly magazine :
“Burke doesn’t talk about the case. Ever. He doesn’t talk about JonBenét at all. It’s not a topic of conversation among the family, and he never volunteers anything about her,” the insider revealed to Us.

"JonBenét is the only topic Burke won’t speak on, with the insider adding, “That’s not on the table. If we were to bring it up, he’d just shut down. He doesn’t want to talk about that. Ever.”

Looks like he made up his mind about that a long time ago. I guess it's not too hard form to blabber about anything then... IMO.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Ok, thanks for sharing!
Well, they are not both standing up on that photo so it's confusing to understand a height difference from that photo. Burke himself does not appear to be standing straight but rather leaning a bit on the back of the bike, and JB is also not standing up.
Looking at photos taken since they were little - where both of them are on the same photo and standing, the height difference seems to be somewhat consistent through the years with JB being up to Burke's shoulders. If someone knows better, I'm glad to learn.

Edited: Some references -

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/178807047699999029/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/178807047700009747/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/17803361025525289/

In the first photo, BRs feet are apart, which if together would make him even taller.

 

[CloudedTruth]

One of the biggest problems in this case -- MOO -- was the media and tabloid lies from almost Day One. And then to further muddy the waters, the BPD refused to dispel the lies.

From the book, "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town:"

"Next Patrick Burke spoke up. He said he didn’t like the
false information being circulated in the press about Burke
Ramsey. The media repeatedly said that the boy hadn’t
been interviewed by the police. The lawyer reminded Hunter that Burke had been interviewed twice, once on December 26 by Detective Patterson and a second time on January 8 by child psychologist Dr. Suzanne Bernhard, yet the Boulder police kept giving the public the impression that no interviews of the boy had taken place. The lawyer wanted Hunter to “stand up and be courageous” and set the record straight."

With respect, Schiller certainly is more credible than Woodward, but I wouldn't consider him the best or most reliable with his information in this case. The DA's office was also responsible for leaking bad information to the press and for putting out false information fanning the flames that the BPD was completely incompetent, which was not true.

In the specific instances he writes about here, this is not a fair representation of the facts. The Ramseys were not cooperating and that included withholding BR's cooperation with police. This is the same as them being legally required to turn over DNA evidence, they had no choice. I would not call that voluntary cooperation.

On the morning of the 26th when BR finally came downstairs to be taken to the White's house, an officer tried to approach him to ask some basic questions......questions it can be noted his own parents did not ask and NEVER did. JR stopped the officer in his tracks and would not allow him to speak with BR, instead ushering him out the door with FW. The interview that Det. Patterson conducted later that afternoon at the White's house was done without knowledge of the Ramseys (Priscilla's sister said she was BR's grandmother and gave the required familial permission) and was not an extensive interview.

The interview with Dr. Bernhard was mandated by DSS, having been alerted by the coroner Dr. Meyer that a death / murder had occurred in the home while a minor child was present. The Ramseys again had no choice as DPS could have obtained custody of BR had they not cooperated. But they were able via their lawyers to make some of their own demands, one of which was that police not be involved in the interview or present in the room. A detective did observe from behind a two way mirror, but had no direct involvement. This interview as we know involved mostly questions that pertained to how BR felt about his family life and its members, his emotions, thoughts and potential fears, not specifics about what he remembered from that night, it was clearly directed at determining his mental and emotional well being. A major component was assessing if BR was in any danger and whether or not it was safe for him to remain in the custody of his parents. Dr. Bernhard was able to offer her opinion that BR did not exhibit signs of sociopathy that might indicate he was involved with or responsible for harming his sister, however she also noted some things she had concerns about. She felt that further sessions with BR would be needed in order to come up with a full assessment of his emotional health, however after complying with the one interview team Ramsey was able to shut that down. No further interviews were allowed and the Ramseys retained custody.

As we all know, 4 months passed during which negotiations were under way between BPD and the Ramsey lawyers before JR and PR sat down to be interviewed. During this time the DA offered unprecedented considerations such as providing statements made on 12/26 and access to investigative materials that had been gathered by BPD in the interim. BR would not sit for an official police interview until June of 1998 in Atlanta.

Schiller's account here is Ramsey lawyer Patrick Burke's spin, and as such it was skewed to misrepresent the actual facts.

 

[CloudedTruth]

It's not a stretch. The potential consequences were were severe. ( or should have been) .
Children will lie to protect their parents. It's done all the time and they can be manipulated to do so. Children are horribly abused and mistreated and never speak of what goes on at home and still will be protective of awful parents.
Burke was almost 10. He knew the drill. I kept secrets much younger and they weren't trauma based.

Dr. Bernhard described BR as being very closed down and that he exhibited a lot of reticence to talk about his family. She had a difficult time drawing information out of him and said he was very "protective of them".

From Foreign Faction:
"She went on to explain that it was sometimes difficult for children to distinguish what to say and what not to say, especially when they are trying to hide something."

 

[Swirlz]

The interview that Det. Patterson conducted later that afternoon at the White's house was done without knowledge of the Ramseys (Priscilla's sister said she was BR's grandmother and gave the required familial permission) and was not an extensive interview.

I'm not sure what the criteria would be for considering an interview "extensive". A transcript of page one can be found online. The questions are rather detailed and appeared to me to be fairly "extensive".

The interview with Dr. Bernhard was mandated by DSS, having been alerted by the coroner Dr. Meyer that a death / murder had occurred in the home while a minor child was present. The Ramseys again had no choice as DPS could have obtained custody of BR had they not cooperated.

That the R's were mandated by DSS to allow BR to give the Susanne Bernhard interview is repeated often in online conversations but I've never seen an actual source for it. I'm not suggesting there necessarily isn't one, just that I've never come across it. Steve Thomas felt the interview was arranged by PR's personal attorney in an attempt to allow PR access to Linda Arndt, who met PR in the waiting room.

 

[Swirlz]

From Foreign Faction:
"She went on to explain that it was sometimes difficult for children to distinguish what to say and what not to say, especially when they are trying to hide something."

Just to reiterate the point; Dr. Bernhard clearly felt BR had been exposed to or had experienced abuse. She did NOT believe BR to be the killer.

And to address the comments upthread about kids being able to keep secrets; yeah, they can. But this kid managed to do more than JUST NOT TELL ANYONE. He successfully fooled trained investigators into believing he was innocent, the SAME investigators who did not believe the denials of JR/PR.

 

[Ponytale]

He successfully fooled trained investigators into believing he was innocent, the SAME investigators who did not believe the denials of JR/PR.

Could you bring an example of that statement to illustrate better what you mean? What do you know of that he said or did that had fooled the investigators?

 

[CloudedTruth]

I'm not sure what the criteria would be for considering an interview "extensive". A transcript of page one can be found online. The questions are rather detailed and appeared to me to be fairly "extensive".

That the R's were mandated by DSS to allow BR to give the Susanne Bernhard interview is repeated often in online conversations but I've never seen an actual source for it. I'm not suggesting there necessarily isn't one, just that I've never come across it. Steve Thomas felt the interview was arranged by PR's personal attorney in an attempt to allow PR access to Linda Arndt, who met PR in the waiting room.

Dr. Meyer, similar to pediatricians being mandated reporters of suspected abuse, was also a mandated reporter under the guidelines of the Child Fatality Review Team. The team had been convened by Coroner Meyer because JB's death was determined to be a homicide which had occurred while a minor was in the home. DSS protocol is that siblings (in particular a minor) are required to be removed from the home in which the death of a sibling has occurred.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I'm not sure what the criteria would be for considering an interview "extensive". A transcript of page one can be found online. The questions are rather detailed and appeared to me to be fairly "extensive".

For example, the interviews conducted by police with BR in Atlanta in 1998 was 6 hours, spread out over three days at 2 hours each. This allows the interviewer to ask more in depth and thorough questions which may involve a wider scope. It also allows the interviewer (and those who may be observing) the opportunity to better assess things such as body language, response to certain questions, overall demeanor, inconsistencies in the story, unusual non-verbal and verbal behavior, etc. It's much more than just what questions are being asked in order to get some basic facts.