CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #10

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  • #961
BBM
Mrs Harrod can give, and apparently has given in the past, consent to search her home. lol...now we are truly distracted imo.

I admire Mrs Harrod and I :bow: to CA Exile who provided some important insight, and who also has been steadfast in his desire to have his friend recovered.

For me, it is hard to decide if this crime has it's origin in the past or if the perfect storm post Georgia's death was the trigger. Maybe both.

If it hadnt been for that 10 AM phone call, I would have believed that Bob's disappearance occurred much earlier.

So were JeM and CL in the house when Bob disappeared, per JuM timeline? And when did JeM see that phantom SUV? I wish the MP report had more information regarding that event. Note that AH did not mention the SUV during the well being check-he just pointed the finger at the family fighting. At least a sworn officer captured that statement in his report.

But JeM saw Bob at 130PM right? Or not. That has to be a bit of bad reporting surely-again, we are looking at in and out, in and out if that were true...and CL was in the house cleaning at that time, so it makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe JeM, if given the chance, would change his last seen time to 1130 or so. Oh nope, because we have PB's unverified phone call to deal with, just after 1130am. SIL was giving a favorable response or Bob was? I cant remember.

Apparently SIL last saw Bob with a white hat on, a point raised by suzyq.

Clear as mud-except the motivation for Bob's disappearance imo.

Seems to be a lot of bad reporters around in this case, Lol! Seriously though, in England, reporters are obliged to keep their notes for about 6 years, so I expect most of them would have proof of what they were told, and I suspect that's where the real confusion lies. I also suspect they might be willing to confirm if asked.......interesting.
 
  • #962
Maybe we can ask Steely Dan to create a poll for us on when everyone believes Bob was last seen? We can make it available to the public....

Yes! But you ask - he's already stolen Dolly's emu, don't want him to steal my zwiebel onions too!
 
  • #963
BBM

Seems to be a lot of bad reporters around in this case, Lol! Seriously though, in England, reporters are obliged to keep their notes for about 6 years, so I expect most of them would have proof of what they were told, and I suspect that's where the real confusion lies. I also suspect they might be willing to confirm if asked.......interesting.

Very, very different from the US!

In the US, the press is extremely vigilant about being used as an arm of law enforcement. For example, when Ted Kaczynski sent the New York Times and the Washington Post his manifesto, both papers had serious reservations to overcome about being used in that manner. In both cases, the papers decided that the greater good had to overcome the drawbacks of being seen to be manipulable in that way, in the hope that someone out there would recognise either the manifesto or the general writing style. Which is what happened; Kaczynski's brother had no inkling that Ted was the Unabomber until the manifesto was published.

In the US, reporters generally destroy any tapes and notes fairly soon after the story is published, within a matter of days, so as to give anyone cited or quoted a chance to challenge any possible mistakes. Television stations routinely destroy their raw footage as soon as the story is aired.

Reporters and their employers generally fight tooth and nail being dragged into a criminal court to support either side. Not because they are innately immoral but because one of the most important principles in the US is the freedom of the press from undue interference by the government, which includes law enforcement.

I rather like the British non-written constitution constitution, which develops in a very organic manner. Like many offspring, the US saw clearly all the drawbacks of the parental system and set out to be different without considering the new set of drawbacks that would arise.
 
  • #964
Wow! That's eye-opening for me. So what's been printed is what we have to go on, and we have a choice of deciding if it's accurate or not. I have to admit to a little bias, but I'll tend towards believing that, though reporters often make mistakes, a whole series by different reporters on different papers - all concentrated around the timeline - is unlikely!
 
  • #965
Lots of guests viewing - please join us, you're very welcome:)
 
  • #966
OT but I've just heard reports on the BBC about Hurricane Sandy and other weather warnings in the US. Can't believe I complained about our little sprinkling of snow here in Germany.
Please stay safe everyone, I'm thinking of you!
 
  • #967
OT but I've just heard reports on the BBC about Hurricane Sandy and other weather warnings in the US. Can't believe I complained about our little sprinkling of snow here in Germany.
Please stay safe everyone, I'm thinking of you!

Thanks, Zweibel!!
 
  • #968
I was thinking the closest analog situation would be tenancy. The law is quite clear there, that a tenant can give consent for the residence they are living in to be searched without the owner's consent.

This situation is not completely the same but I believe the principle would probably be the same: someone can give consent for their residence to be searched even if they do not own the residence.

Not even close.

The house is part of the trust. This means the home is the legally owned property of the trust.
 
  • #969
BBM~~~~

Agree.

Yes which begs the question of what exactly her real intentions were.

She has stated that she knew Bob, depending on which MSM article you believe 1 - 2 years prior to their engagement in January of 1950.

This would mean that she was 12 or 13 when they met and 14 years old when they supposedly became engaged. This as well puts Bob into his 20's.

All this information can be found in the MSM links which have been previously provided.
 
  • #970
How do you know that Fontelle is not at the Carnation residence for months at a time, shana? This is a pretty intimate detail.

In any case, does it matter?? What if you lived in your marital residence and decided to go on a trip around the world-should someone be able to sell or rent the house out from under you? And whose business is it where Mrs Harrod comes and goes? Is someone keeping an eye on every other person who resides in a trust owned property? Give me a break.

This action is incredibly spiteful, mean spirited and malicious. Any judge will see it for what it is, and the girls are making it clear they are at war with their step mother. Rather than spending that money on finding their father.

They are not doing themselves any favors and their attorneys are having a field day-shortly the attorneys in this case will have benefited far more from Bob's money than even AH.

Maybe they disappeared Bob.

From her own lawyers letter to the PPD.

All trespassers are to be charge and he is the person to be notified in her absence as per his clients instruction.
 
  • #971
  • #972
I am not a lawyer or an expert of any sort.

The grounds for my speculation as to who could give consent to Bob's home being searched are based on my own experience as a property manager and on reading various sites on constitutional rights.

For instance, the following is talking about a co-tenancy situation but touches on a situation where one person who is present consents to a search while someone who is not present does not consent:



http://www.fletc.gov/training/progr...can-consent-to-search-podcast-transcript.html

The following defines who has the right to consent to a search:



http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/04.html

What I take from those sources is that the number of days per year spent on the premises doesn't really matter. What matters is that one person who would have a reasonable expectation of privacy and is in a position of authority over the premises gives consent.

Clearly Fontelle has some level of authority over the premises; the co-conservators could not, for example, choose to rent the house to someone else without Fontelle's consent or without a court order setting aside Fontelle's consent.

SBM

Legally, I am quite certain that LE would of obtained a search warrant signed by a judge as is standard operating procedure especially when searching a home for forensics, thus Fontelle would never of had to give her consent.
 
  • #973
Very, very different from the US!

In the US, the press is extremely vigilant about being used as an arm of law enforcement. For example, when Ted Kaczynski sent the New York Times and the Washington Post his manifesto, both papers had serious reservations to overcome about being used in that manner. In both cases, the papers decided that the greater good had to overcome the drawbacks of being seen to be manipulable in that way, in the hope that someone out there would recognise either the manifesto or the general writing style. Which is what happened; Kaczynski's brother had no inkling that Ted was the Unabomber until the manifesto was published.

In the US, reporters generally destroy any tapes and notes fairly soon after the story is published, within a matter of days, so as to give anyone cited or quoted a chance to challenge any possible mistakes. Television stations routinely destroy their raw footage as soon as the story is aired.

Reporters and their employers generally fight tooth and nail being dragged into a criminal court to support either side. Not because they are innately immoral but because one of the most important principles in the US is the freedom of the press from undue interference by the government, which includes law enforcement.

I rather like the British non-written constitution constitution, which develops in a very organic manner. Like many offspring, the US saw clearly all the drawbacks of the parental system and set out to be different without considering the new set of drawbacks that would arise.

Really?

Yet on thread after thread it is repeatedly stated how inaccurate reporting on cases has been. I guess the majority of us that have seen the MSM issues must all be wrong.
 
  • #974
Every individual should be looked at with respect to this case simply for the fact that GH had passed away in 2008, and it appears that the daughters were beneficiaries of at least her portion. This tells me that they would probably already be due something with respect to 50% of the trust. Others outside of the trust must be looked at as well as I wonder how many knew there was a trust involved and which is now being contested by Fontelle who married Bob Harrod after 6 days in his company. That alone brings into play additional individuals.

Once again it is very apparent that many do not understand complex trusts. For those that continue to state this is a By Pass trust, I am going to state that I do not believe this was the sole purpose of this.

Trusts are set up for a variety of objectives. A trust is used by both individuals and businesses for estate/inheritance, capital gains/income tax to name a few but there are multiple other reasons.

Most are familiar with ones set up for minor children in the event of a parents death such as the Michael Jackson trust. They are also set up for the fact they are not public thus are confidential. Other reasons include tax purposes, provisions for multiple beneficiaries, to speed up the probate process, continuity of family businesses, et al. The confidentiality of a trust is the reason AH's lawyer required the other side to keep the contents confidential. It was not to "hide" things. Unfortunately, Fontelle's legal advisor did not seem to understand a fundamental purpose of a trust.

In order for a Trust to be valid all assets that are transferred to a trust are the property of the "Trust". This means that they are the property of the trust not an individual/s. This is important to understand.

It is also important to understand that there is a fiduciary responsibility of the Trustee that statements must be provided on a regular basis to the beneficiaries. It was this report the daughters were asking for not the will the day the meeting took place. Whether people wish to be particular over the word will/trust as per what the daughter wrote is moot. The terms are interchanged often as trusts are often not understood. The daughters probably already knew how this trust was set up in advance, just as I have done with my children. They are fully aware of what it states and the mechanics involved with respect to my business/personal interests.

There is unique wording to each trust. I will use mine as one example. There is a stipulation with respect to an employee which is unique. There are as well specific stipulations with respect to my business interests as well as personal. Anyone that attempts to contest my trust will receive nothing, and must pay their own legal fees. End of story.

The Harrod Trust was in effect at least by 1999 as we know that the Harrod Trust was involved at that time with respect to funding involving the GS. That is 10 years prior to Bob Harrod's disappearance. This tells me that this trust was active and used for a variety of purposes, and was not simply a "By Pass" trust. Bob Harrod entered into transactions involving his GS and I am going to guess one reason is that he was receiving a greater amount of interest than if it sat dormant in an interest bearing account. It was as well done while GH was alive and was their decision to make as it was their money not anyone else's. Quite frankly, I don't understand why transactions done with the full knowledge of both his grandparents is being questioned through a discovery process all the way back to 1999. This trust was effective prior to the illness/death of Georgia Harrod, thus it was not effective upon the death of an individual as it was being used prior to GH illness. This leads me to believe that it was "irrevocable". It as well leads me to believe that the marital home was part of this trust as it appears that the trust is responsible for the property.

Now I look at who has benefitted that knew about the trust.

The grandson did while Bob Harrod was alive but so did the Harrod Trust simply for the fact that the trust received the interest monthly not the bank. He as well paid a settlement amount back to the trust being the unpaid payments after Bob Harrod disappeared.

We do not know for sure whether the conservators are charging the account and/or if they are the amount.

The lawyers on both sides are winning.

Now for those that benefitted after GH died that may not of known a trust was involved.

Fontelle has, as she lives in a home already paid for or paid for by the Harrod Trust, receives her pension and I am going to take a guess that she is receiving one other. As well, she is receiving $3,850/mo from the Harrod Trust.

We know the barber lady did. What we don't know is the dollar figure. I keep seeing everyone state that she was "cleared" and had an alibi. I find it odder that this was stated so soon after. I am sure they all said they had an alibi but did it check out? There are not many missing person cases where I see that stated so quick and I have to question whether LE had a reason specific to her and her family. We know she was reported by more than one family with respect to elder abuse, and the other gentleman went ahead with that charge.

Bumping as I am too lazy to retype all of this. Should of instead made it into a macro.
 
  • #975
Mrs Harrod can give, and apparently has given in the past, consent to search her home. lol...now we are truly distracted imo.

I admire Mrs Harrod and I :bow: to CA Exile who provided some important insight, and who also has been steadfast in his desire to have his friend recovered.

For me, it is hard to decide if this crime has it's origin in the past or if the perfect storm post Georgia's death was the trigger. Maybe both.

If it hadnt been for that 10 AM phone call, I would have believed that Bob's disappearance occurred much earlier.

So were JeM and CL in the house when Bob disappeared, per JuM timeline? And when did JeM see that phantom SUV? I wish the MP report had more information regarding that event. Note that AH did not mention the SUV during the well being check-he just pointed the finger at the family fighting. At least a sworn officer captured that statement in his report.

But JeM saw Bob at 130PM right? Or not. That has to be a bit of bad reporting surely-again, we are looking at in and out, in and out if that were true...and CL was in the house cleaning at that time, so it makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe JeM, if given the chance, would change his last seen time to 1130 or so. Oh nope, because we have PB's unverified phone call to deal with, just after 1130am. SIL was giving a favorable response or Bob was? I cant remember.

Apparently SIL last saw Bob with a white hat on, a point raised by suzyq.

Clear as mud-except the motivation for Bob's disappearance imo.

Fontelle can give her permission. I doubt that it would stand up in a Court of Law. I guess LE could take their chances and hope it would.

The proper legal channels would be serving the conservators of the trust.

Interesting about the CL as well as some of the neighbours....

I am positive LE is very well aware of this though :)
 
  • #976
As well, HRD dogs are simply amazing. Sadly, much of the information posted in this thread is wrong. For those interested though, sarx and oriah answer a number od questions regarding how soon detection can start.

Terrific information in this thread :)

Detection does not require hours.

"Decomp scent begins the moment a person dies. But there is a 'window' of confusion (in scent discrimination) when a scent trail turns to decomp. So for example- I go missing. A trailing dog is given my pillowcase as a scent article. That dog is trained to scent on ME (using scent particles). Then it turns out that I'm probably deceased. My other pillowcase is given as a scent article. THAT dog (a different dog) is now scenting off of the same particles, but it has been trained as an HRD dog.

At what time an HRD dog is able to accurately alert on a specific decomp scent depends almost entirely on what kind of training they have had"

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152258&page=4
 
  • #977
One article which might as well help for those that may be confused.

"One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...uth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html
 
  • #978
True, persons who bid jobs for a living (licensed contractors) have to be able to calculate time & material and factor-in a profit. Bob's SIL is not a licensed contractor, but rather a person who helped his in-laws. As such, he is not held to the same standard.

Thanks for the clarification on the job description for that particular day. I never read IS so I don't use it as a reference, and wouldn't anyway if I understand the WS TOS correctly.

The timeline is majorly off, ever since the "Disappeared" preview when the housekeeper changed her story significantly.

I would submit that if the daughter(s) had a forum to answer your questions, one or more would do so. I don't infer from their alleged silence any unwillingness to disclose relevant details/answers, whatsoever.

~jmo~

Just had to bump this as got distracted before I had a chance to comment.

With respect Shana, I think the family do have a 'forum' to post information, answer questions and gather information; Bob's missing person facebook page (otherwise known to us as UFP, useless facebook page) kindly set up and handed over to the daughters by one of our posters.

It is locked up tight now and and the little info that did get posted there was a little strange, a little unpleasant and a little suggestive that Bob wasn't worth finding. If it was up and running tomorrow I am sure everyone on this thread would be there to help. I think some of us here don't agree with the bio family's behaviour since Bob was disappeared but I am certain they, like myself, would be delighted to wake up tomorrow and find JeM posting away about the events that day.

I am also certain that none of us would want to say anything to demean Bob's memory, or damage any efforts to find him. Over to you, JeM........
 
  • #979
Not sure why it is necessary to go off and search for applicable laws, or I would. As it is, the house has been forensically searched once, so evidentally whoever was required to give permission, gave it. I can't imagine anyone wanting to find Bob would stand in the way of further attempts to find evidence of what happened to him.

I don't see the relevance at all of where FH chooses to spend her time. I can't imagine her rights to live in her husband's house come with a caveat that she has to do so in splendid isolation and never visit her family who live far away. If her husband was there as he should have been, she wouldn't need so much support from her family, poor lady.


It is necessary when much misinformation has been repeatedly posted.

As for what Fontelle has done with her time it is very important to my way of thinking. If you are going to hold one side to one set of standards but not the other party, something begins to smell rotten.

Then when I see it stated that she is patiently waiting in "their" home for "his" return, when she is not even there I must beg to ask what are the true motives behind many posts.

When I see such a campaign, all it does it simply make me question the motives behind the campaign I have seen occur in this thread.

The documents are from one side. I will hope they are not originating from Fontelle's legal advisor, as various bar associations take the confidentiality of these very seriously.
 
  • #980
Probably because I don't believe it was a jumbo loan.

California is one of the few states that the federal governement considers to be "high cost". For I believe the last 3 years, which has been extended once again into next year, you can borrow up to $729,750 dollars on a conforming and FHA mortgage prior to it being called a "jumbo loan".

It is defined according to the federal government by the median sales price in an area.

If my memory is correct his home was under this amount.

The federalj government did this as well as a few other incentives.


There is a Platinum CA Buyer Assistance Grant Funds in which the home buyer can receive grant money for 3% of the purchase price. The CHF 3% Platinum home buyer grant program can be applied towards satisfying the down payment requirement.

This is not the only incentive available to people in CA.

It as well does not require any form of repayment.


Bumping this as well....


Since there were a number of accusations regarding fraud.
 
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