CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #10

[shana]

Per the depo:

AH 'received' on his behalf $610,000, most of which was paid to Countrywide on a prior obligation. He did not take-down any more of the original note amount of $735,000. Only $610,000 was funded.

AH made his regular monthly pmts in the amt of apx $3,800/mo thru July, 2009. He built-up equity.

AH paid an undisclosed amount to the Family Trust via Settlement.

AH tendered a quitclaim deed to the Family Trust which now holds the property.

imo, there was no rip-off here and nothing even approaching it.

~jmo~

 

[Cubby]

If this was me, I would not be going with a FHA mortgage in this situation.

Respectfully snipped. FHA, conforming, conventional, arm, 15 yr, 30 yr. What I do not understand is how someone who failed to pay their mortgage for 24 out of the last 36 months and returned the home rather than face foreclosure (which for most would be a keys for cash type scenario) could secure ANY mortgage financing.

I think we have determined one can purchase a 700K home without a DP in Orange County CA. What we have not determined is why the bank/mortgage approved financing for a borrower who failed to pay a previous mortgage from the time his grandfather disappeared until the time he moved and/or turned over the house back to the trust in April of 2012.

The average person who made 12 mortgage payments out of the previous 36 months would not qualify for any type loan. Maybe someone else knows of a legal mortgage financing option where payment history within the last 36 months is irrelevent?

 

[Cubby]

Per the depo:

AH 'received' on his behalf $610,000, most of which was paid to Countrywide on a prior obligation. He did not take-down any more of the original note amount of $735,000. Only $610,000 was funded.

AH made his regular monthly pmts in the amt of apx $3,800/mo thru July, 2009. He built-up equity.

AH paid an undisclosed amount to the Family Trust via Settlement.

AH tendered a quitclaim deed to the Family Trust which now holds the property.

imo, there was no rip-off here and nothing even approaching it.

~jmo~

Hmm. I wonder what happened with the Country Wide loan that Bob had to put up a note for AH? I think the entire history needs to be reviewed by LE, a process rather than an event type thing. There was a process which led to having to disappear Mr. Harrod upon him remarrying and imo it did not begin with his being reunited with his current wife.

IMO it began long before and may have began long before his 1st wifes passing.

A good forensic accountant to look at the whole picture here..

JMO

 

[GrainneDhu]

Hmm. I wonder what happened with the Country Wide loan that Bob had to put up a note for AH? I think the entire history needs to be reviewed by LE, a process rather than an event type thing. There was a process which led to having to disappear Mr. Harrod upon him remarrying and imo it did not begin with his being reunited with his current wife.

IMO it began long before and may have began long before his 1st wifes passing.

A good forensic accountant to look at the whole picture here..

JMO

Oh ugh. I have a horrid feeling you are right.

Reconnecting with Fontelle just moved plans or "necessities" forward in time.

Poor Bob. He deserved much better than that.

 

[Cubby]

fwiw, I encourage everyone following this discussion to re-read AH's depo.

His answers to several questions shed a clear light on the financial arrangements between him and his grandfather (the Family Trust) and how they affected the reconveyance/quitclaim, etc.

There was a Settlement; altho afaik, it remains confidential at this time and we are not privy to its terms (rightly so, imo).

~jmo~

Additionally I would suggest also reading the trial minutes from when the co-conservators took the hairdresser to court. Their sworn statements indicate Bob was a very good record keeper documenting everything. There is no documentation Bob had ever lent any money to the hair dresser.

Additionally and more importantly there is zero, not one document indicating AH's loan was to be forgiven upon Bob's death. For a man who kept meticulous notes, none exist for this so called forgiveness of his grandson's mortgage.

Look at the entire picture, all of it. Not just the bit's and pieces. Take the time to study this case in it's entirety. It is well worth the time.

And then make your own conclusions.

 

[shana]

Additionally I would suggest also reading the trial minutes from when the co-conservators took the hairdresser to court. Their sworn statements indicate Bob was a very good record keeper documenting everything. There is no documentation Bob had ever lent any money to the hair dresser.

Additionally and more importantly there is zero, not one document indicating AH's loan was to be forgiven upon Bob's death. For a man who kept meticulous notes, none exist for this so called forgiveness of his grandson's mortgage.

Look at the entire picture, all of it. Not just the bit's and pieces. Take the time to study this case in it's entirety. It is well worth the time.

And then make your own conclusions.

Cubby, absolutely, ITA!

Indeed there are several docs to wade-thru but unfortunately most represent one side only and/or were provided by that same side.

Speaking of handwritten notes, did Mr. Harrod leave any which set-out how he wanted to change the terms of the trust to include Fontelle? If anything, one would have expected him to have written-down his wishes/plans in this regard.

~jmo~

 

[Cubby]

The only side in this, is really Mr. Harrod's and what his wishes were.....
The answers to where he is, why he is there and why such horrid things have been said about him by his daughters. Why the timeline has changed and some other questions.

Only by carefully scrutinizing the finances and not just since Mr. Harrod's disappearance, but the months and years prior to his disappearance will answers come in this case.

 

[shana]

The only side in this, is really Mr. Harrod's and what his wishes were.....
The answers to where he is, why he is there and why such horrid things have been said about him by his daughters. Why the timeline has changed and some other questions.

Only by carefully scrutinizing the finances and not just since Mr. Harrod's disappearance, but the months and years prior to his disappearance will answers come in this case.

Because there are a number of contentious issues with regard to civil/probate matters, sides *do* matter, even more so in terms of who is providing documents (not directly from the court) and why. As I've posted numerous times, I'd like to see both sides = the whole story. I was all for the suggestion when first raised that a paypal account or the like be setup with WS blessings, so that someone could obtain official copies in-person from the O.C. Courthouse. I volunteered to make a visit there myself if additional docs were needed, to make a complete picture.

If the daughters posted some negatives about their father, who am I to declare they are untrue? And if true, what impact do they have on his disappearance anyway?

As for timelines, the housekeeper seems to have a problem in her recollection these years later, if we are to believe the "Disappeared" clip. Memories don't typically improve over time.

While I agree that it is likely that whatever happened to Mr. Harrod was fueled by something other than his new marriage, I don't restrict my scrutiny to family members only.

Nobody has been cleared by PPD in this case, as far as such info has been released by the department.

Respectfully submitted by one in the minority here...

~jmo~

 

[SuziQ]

I don't believe what shana is trying to state is being understood here.

It was Fontelle's lawyers, in a legal filing, using legalese that this was stated.

And wouldn't this statement be based on factual info? Or are you accusing her attorneys of lying?

 

[SuziQ]

Because there are a number of contentious issues with regard to civil/probate matters, sides *do* matter, even more so in terms of who is providing documents (not directly from the court) and why. As I've posted numerous times, I'd like to see both sides = the whole story. I was all for the suggestion when first raised that a paypal account or the like be setup with WS blessings, so that someone could obtain official copies in-person from the O.C. Courthouse. I volunteered to make a visit there myself if additional docs were needed, to make a complete picture.

If the daughters posted some negatives about their father, who am I to declare they are untrue? And if true, what impact do they have on his disappearance anyway?

As for timelines, the housekeeper seems to have a problem in her recollection these years later, if we are to believe the "Disappeared" clip. Memories don't typically improve over time.

While I agree that it is likely that whatever happened to Mr. Harrod was fueled by something other than his new marriage, I don't restrict my scrutiny to family members only.

Nobody has been cleared by PPD in this case, as far as such info has been released by the department.

Respectfully submitted by one in the minority here...

~jmo~

The hairdresser was cleared. She was the only one. I find it interesting that PPD has not cleared the children and one grandchild of Bob Harrod.

 

[cloudajo]

Cubby, absolutely, ITA!

Indeed there are several docs to wade-thru but unfortunately most represent one side only and/or were provided by that same side.

Speaking of handwritten notes, did Mr. Harrod leave any which set-out how he wanted to change the terms of the trust to include Fontelle? If anything, one would have expected him to have written-down his wishes/plans in this regard.

~jmo~

There is a reference in an article (see below) were police said notes written by Bob indicate intended to add Fontelle to various accounts – I haven’t seen anything about notes written by Bob regarding the trust though. Other references are what police, Fontelle and Roberta said about money/estate/finances/assets.

From LA Times Article:

The day before he disappeared, his daughters -- Paula Borcher, Roberta Brady and Julie Michaels -- went to his home in Placentia. The four argued about money, police say.

According to Fontelle, Bob said his daughters became upset when he told them he planned to include his new wife in the estate. According to court filings, his daughters estimated Bob had property and savings worth at least $1 million.

From OC Register Article:

Notes written in Bob Harrod's hand found around the house indicate Bob Harrod intended to put his new wife's name on various accounts, Loomis said. Police say that, including properties and other assets, Bob Harrod was a multi-millionaire.

Bob Harrod and his three daughters had an argument over finances the Sunday before he vanished.

His daughter, Roberta, acknowledged the exchange, saying her father lost his temper. She said he had failed to provide copies of their mother's will, which he was obligated to do because of the financial mechanisms set up by the estate.

"It wasn't a heated meeting," she said in a phone interview. "Dad got heated. He's very selfish, very conditional. The day before he went missing in the afternoon, he was going to provide us copies of the will, and we went over to get the copies. He didn't have them."

Fontelle Harrod said several days after Bob Harrod disappeared, his three daughters came to his house where Fontelle was staying and told her she wasn't entitled to any of their father's assets.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/02/local/la-me-disappeared3-2010feb03/2

 

[shana]

The hairdresser was cleared. She was the only one. I find it interesting that PPD has not cleared the children and one grandchild of Bob Harrod.

Please provide valid sources for your assertions. TIA

~jmo~

 

[shana]

snipped respectfully

There is a reference in an article (see below) were police said notes written by Bob indicate intended to add Fontelle to various accounts – I haven’t seen anything about notes written by Bob regarding the trust though. Other references are what police, Fontelle and Roberta said about money/estate/finances/assets.

Thank you for addressing my question directly, cloudajo. Your refs are what I had expected, and I appreciate your citing them. I will be back with a further reply later/tomorrow.

~jmo~

 

[GrainneDhu]

Because there are a number of contentious issues with regard to civil/probate matters, sides *do* matter, even more so in terms of who is providing documents (not directly from the court) and why. As I've posted numerous times, I'd like to see both sides = the whole story. I was all for the suggestion when first raised that a paypal account or the like be setup with WS blessings, so that someone could obtain official copies in-person from the O.C. Courthouse. I volunteered to make a visit there myself if additional docs were needed, to make a complete picture.

If the daughters posted some negatives about their father, who am I to declare they are untrue? And if true, what impact do they have on his disappearance anyway?

As for timelines, the housekeeper seems to have a problem in her recollection these years later, if we are to believe the "Disappeared" clip. Memories don't typically improve over time.

While I agree that it is likely that whatever happened to Mr. Harrod was fueled by something other than his new marriage, I don't restrict my scrutiny to family members only.

Nobody has been cleared by PPD in this case, as far as such info has been released by the department.

Respectfully submitted by one in the minority here...

~jmo~

BBM

As to the bolded part, the things the sisters have posted to the internet are... odd.

Usually when a family member goes missing, a loving family tries to stress their loved one's positive or admirable traits and downplay any negative traits that person may have had. The missing person may have had a long criminal record or have had massive substance abuse problems or be generally one hot mess and what the families focus on is their loved one's smile, their loved one's kindness to small children, whatever indication they have that their loved one was straightening out their life, etc.

In part, it's because those are the things that keep loved ones going in the bad times.

I also think that on some level people realise that they cannot find their missing loved one by themselves. It's going to take help from LE and the general public. So motivating LE and the public to search means presenting a missing loved one in such a way that people will want to help search.

A very much every day example is missing teenagers. If the impression given by the family is of a troubled or delinquent teen who voluntarily ran away, it's difficult to get help searching. If the impression is that this is a teen who would never have run away, the response is often much greater. Even though it is well known that runaway teens are at high risk for becoming crime victims and therefore, should be considered in imminent danger.

That is how the search for Bob Harrod can be affected by what his daughters say about him on the internet.

While I am a strong proponent that motivation does not make or prevent a crime, it is helpful to consider in looking at the pool of suspects. Who would have the most to gain if Bob died? Who would have the most to lose if Bob died?

 

[SuziQ]

Please provide valid sources for your assertions. TIA

~jmo~

Cubby answered your question back in August.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #9

 

[shana]

bolding in quote done by me

So far as I can remember, no such notes or memos were found.

I have two theories for that.

One (the nice one) is that Bob was head over heels in love and not thinking in terms of dollars and cents.

Two (the not so nice one) is that JeM and JuM have admitted to being in the house after Bob disappeared but before Fontelle returned to their home.

It may be too late now but I hope the Placentia police took the various pads of paper from around the house and examined them for any shadow writing caused by pressing a ball point pen to the sheet above.

Bob Harrod strikes me as an old fashioned man. Not too surprising, considering his age. When he married Fontelle, I think they probably had the traditional Christian service, the one that says "with this ring and with my worldly goods I thee endow." I think both Bob and Fontelle meant every word of the vows they made that day.

Thank you for your reply on the facts as you recall and as I believe we know so far, GrainneDhu.

In response to your theories, and going from them for consideration:

Romantic perceptions aside (whether valid or not), Mr. Harrod was said to be very careful about keeping notes, such as the ones he supposedly wrote tallying sums he had lent to the BL. Alas, no such notes were eventually found to support what Mr. Harrod had reportedly vocalized about those gifts/loans* to one or more of his daughters. (*Let Judge Judy decide)

So, he of supposedly such careful note-taking nature, did not memorialize monies given/lent to the BL nor his wishes concerning Fontelle's place in his will/trust to the extent he could amend, her place in his financial future? I find the latter far more significant.

I think he wasn't such a note-writer at all. That said, his Estate lawyer has some knowledge of Mr. Harrod's wishes and I hope we will discover some day, if relevant, just what they were at the time he told his atty about them.

Also, the prevailing thought on this thread is that the Sunday meeting had plenty to do with Mr. Harrod's financial planning. (imo, that was not the purpose of the meet, even if it did veer to such...more on this point later.)

A la Ramsey case with its pen impressions found on blank pages beneath one or more removed pages (so-called "practice notes"), I hope as well that any such pads were examined, if only to dispel any notions that Bob's daughters stole papers from the residence before the PPD did its initial investigation of the premises.

I thought the couple married in a rather quick civil ceremony but perhaps they had some Christian vows written-down beforehand to repeat at such time? Who knows, but it paints a nice picture, especially if such words were wanted and spoken by both.

~jmo~

 

[shana]

Cubby answered your question back in August.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #9

Thanks, SuziQ. I read it before but I would like to see a PPD release so stating, not MSM.

~jmo~

 

[shana]

BBM

As to the bolded part, the things the sisters have posted to the internet are... odd.

Usually when a family member goes missing, a loving family tries to stress their loved one's positive or admirable traits and downplay any negative traits that person may have had. The missing person may have had a long criminal record or have had massive substance abuse problems or be generally one hot mess and what the families focus on is their loved one's smile, their loved one's kindness to small children, whatever indication they have that their loved one was straightening out their life, etc.

In part, it's because those are the things that keep loved ones going in the bad times.

I also think that on some level people realise that they cannot find their missing loved one by themselves. It's going to take help from LE and the general public. So motivating LE and the public to search means presenting a missing loved one in such a way that people will want to help search.

A very much every day example is missing teenagers. If the impression given by the family is of a troubled or delinquent teen who voluntarily ran away, it's difficult to get help searching. If the impression is that this is a teen who would never have run away, the response is often much greater. Even though it is well known that runaway teens are at high risk for becoming crime victims and therefore, should be considered in imminent danger.

That is how the search for Bob Harrod can be affected by what his daughters say about him on the internet.

While I am a strong proponent that motivation does not make or prevent a crime, it is helpful to consider in looking at the pool of suspects. Who would have the most to gain if Bob died? Who would have the most to lose if Bob died?

Odd? How so, and what does it matter...what importance do their remarks - far after the fact of his having gone missing - have to do with finding Mr. Harrod?

Altho there is certainly merit in the explanation about recently missing persons and young ones especially, I totally disagree about THIS case. Here, an old case, there is no push other than surmising who is likely responsible for Mr. Harrod's disappearance among his family members and why, a far cry from trying to help find him as recited above.

As for who would stand to gain, there are others apart from the family to consider. I certainly don't know who is responsible for Bob's disappearance, but no one is excluded in my thinking.

Again, I realize I am just about one voice (left) posting here. At least I hope some still reading - Guests included - can see another POV.

~jmo~

 

[GrainneDhu]

bolding in quote done by me



Thank you for your reply on the facts as you recall and as I believe we know so far, GrainneDhu.

In response to your theories, and going from them for consideration:

Romantic perceptions aside (whether valid or not), Mr. Harrod was said to be very careful about keeping notes, such as the ones he supposedly wrote tallying sums he had lent to the BL. Alas, no such notes were eventually found to support what Mr. Harrod had reportedly vocalized about those gifts/loans* to one or more of his daughters. (*Let Judge Judy decide)

So, he of supposedly such careful note-taking nature, did not memorialize monies given/lent to the BL nor his wishes concerning Fontelle's place in his will/trust to the extent he could amend, her place in his financial future? I find the latter far more significant.

I think he wasn't such a note-writer at all. That said, his Estate lawyer has some knowledge of Mr. Harrod's wishes and I hope we will discover some day, if relevant, just what they were at the time he told his atty about them.

Also, the prevailing thought on this thread is that the Sunday meeting had plenty to do with Mr. Harrod's financial planning. (imo, that was not the purpose of the meet, even if it did veer to such...more on this point later.)

A la Ramsey case with its pen impressions found on blank pages beneath one or more removed pages (so-called "practice notes"), I hope as well that any such pads were examined, if only to dispel any notions that Bob's daughters stole papers from the residence before the PPD did its initial investigation of the premises.

I thought the couple married in a rather quick civil ceremony but perhaps they had some Christian vows written-down beforehand to repeat at such time? Who knows, but it paints a nice picture, especially if such words were wanted and spoken by both.

~jmo~

I deleted the post you quoted after I read Cloudajo's reply; clearly I was wrong that Bob had not left any written notes as to his intentions. It appears that Bob left clear indications of his intentions.

I do consider it significant that he apparently intended to add Fontelle to his accounts and I wonder if his children and/or grandson knew of these plans before the Sunday meeting.

As for JeM or JuM possibly removing documents or objects that could be evidentiary in nature from Bob's residence, I think it's a valid concern. Of course, whoever caused Bob to disappear may not be related to the Harrods and could still have removed items from Bob's home.

Quickie civil ceremonies are often conducted along the lines of the Christian wedding service, complete with vows. At least, the two civil services I participated in (one in Iowa, one in Idaho) did. In neither ceremony did the participants need to write their own vows, the officiant offered the Christian service.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Odd? How so, and what does it matter...what importance do their remarks - far after the fact of his having gone missing - have to do with finding Mr. Harrod?

Altho there is certainly merit in the explanation about recently missing persons and young ones especially, I totally disagree about THIS case. Here, an old case, there is no push other than surmising who is likely responsible for Mr. Harrod's disappearance among his family members and why, a far cry from trying to help find him as recited above.

As for who would stand to gain, there are others apart from the family to consider. I certainly don't know who is responsible for Bob's disappearance, but no one is excluded in my thinking.

Again, I realize I am just about one voice (left) posting here. At least I hope some still reading - Guests included - can see another POV.

~jmo~

BBM

The remarks I refer to were made within weeks of Bob's disappearance. It was far from old or cold at that point.