CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #10

[Allusonz]

But the agreement was presented at trial on 10/31/2011. Why the quitclaim in April of 2012?

Your right it was presented. It was as well contested and we do not have the documents once again that have been obtained so I must simply go on my experience with them.

As well, if that had been myself in that position that the GS found himself in, I would in no way agree to something till at least the equity I had built up in the home was recognized in some way. That is just sound business.

Can anyone here state to me categorically that if they had paid $3,800/month for a number of years that they would just turn it over? Some may state they would but I can guarantee that many that do state that would in real life not do that.

It has become obvious to me that very few have dealt with a trust. They are an entity all to themselves, and if anyone, from any side tries to change the trust there are simply no winners save for the lawyers.

 

[Allusonz]

Fontelle was contesting the back payments :waitasec:?

How terribly erroneous of me to make such an error and not state "contest the trust" in full.

Please accept but full apologies.

 

[Allusonz]

Respectfully snipped. FHA, conforming, conventional, arm, 15 yr, 30 yr. What I do not understand is how someone who failed to pay their mortgage for 24 out of the last 36 months and returned the home rather than face foreclosure (which for most would be a keys for cash type scenario) could secure ANY mortgage financing.

I think we have determined one can purchase a 700K home without a DP in Orange County CA. What we have not determined is why the bank/mortgage approved financing for a borrower who failed to pay a previous mortgage from the time his grandfather disappeared until the time he moved and/or turned over the house back to the trust in April of 2012.

The average person who made 12 mortgage payments out of the previous 36 months would not qualify for any type loan. Maybe someone else knows of a legal mortgage financing option where payment history within the last 36 months is irrelevent?

Respectfully Cubby whom would he pay it to?

You had the sisters and Fontelle both going for conservatorship. I would of advised him not to pay either party as it had not been settled as to who was going to oversee it.

He could not pay it to Mr. Harrod, whom he normally did.

As well, if they were trying to take the home away, without any form of compensation I would not pay either till an agreement had been finalized by a judge.

I have suspected that this new loan here was not just for the mortgage on the new home but for the back payment deemed owed to the trust, thus the reason for the $719,000.

I would suspect, from a credit point of view it played virtually no role in his credit ability.

He has had a business for 11 years. A person does not remain in business if you have a poor credit rating for long without problems.

If it was me I would of been up front with the bank from the start and in fact kept them apprised of the situation.

The only people that seem to be having an issue with it is here.

 

[Allusonz]

Hmm. I wonder what happened with the Country Wide loan that Bob had to put up a note for AH? I think the entire history needs to be reviewed by LE, a process rather than an event type thing. There was a process which led to having to disappear Mr. Harrod upon him remarrying and imo it did not begin with his being reunited with his current wife.

IMO it began long before and may have began long before his 1st wifes passing.

A good forensic accountant to look at the whole picture here..

JMO

I don't believe there was a "plan". Something happened to Mr. Harrod and I suspect he was lured out of his home probably thinking it was an "emergency".

For me, no one has been ruled out but there are certainly some interesting people that are virtually ignored in this thread that I believe should get more attention...

 

[Allusonz]

Additionally I would suggest also reading the trial minutes from when the co-conservators took the hairdresser to court. Their sworn statements indicate Bob was a very good record keeper documenting everything. There is no documentation Bob had ever lent any money to the hair dresser.

Additionally and more importantly there is zero, not one document indicating AH's loan was to be forgiven upon Bob's death. For a man who kept meticulous notes, none exist for this so called forgiveness of his grandson's mortgage.

Look at the entire picture, all of it. Not just the bit's and pieces. Take the time to study this case in it's entirety. It is well worth the time.

And then make your own conclusions.

I have as well as the information provided by the neighbor that posted in these threads. He had information such as the $50,000 van that was "given" to the BL.

You can't make this stuff up. Ok maybe you can but for me it seems more like the theme from a very poor movie. Sorry my quirky sense of humour showing again...

 

[Allusonz]

Because there are a number of contentious issues with regard to civil/probate matters, sides *do* matter, even more so in terms of who is providing documents (not directly from the court) and why. As I've posted numerous times, I'd like to see both sides = the whole story. I was all for the suggestion when first raised that a paypal account or the like be setup with WS blessings, so that someone could obtain official copies in-person from the O.C. Courthouse. I volunteered to make a visit there myself if additional docs were needed, to make a complete picture.

If the daughters posted some negatives about their father, who am I to declare they are untrue? And if true, what impact do they have on his disappearance anyway?

As for timelines, the housekeeper seems to have a problem in her recollection these years later, if we are to believe the "Disappeared" clip. Memories don't typically improve over time.

While I agree that it is likely that whatever happened to Mr. Harrod was fueled by something other than his new marriage, I don't restrict my scrutiny to family members only.

Nobody has been cleared by PPD in this case, as far as such info has been released by the department.

Respectfully submitted by one in the minority here...

~jmo~

I as well have to agree shana. One simply cannot take the word of one side or even the documents. Each side should be looked at.

Lawyers can be creative when they file documents thus I must weigh things as they have been presented which is essentially one side.

It was stated by LE that the BL had an alibi. How many times though have we heard things such as this only to find out LE found holes in the alibi.

 

[Allusonz]

And wouldn't this statement be based on factual info? Or are you accusing her attorneys of lying?

Simply put no. LE has not released the "factual" information so it is their clients "opinion" at this point in time.

It is not about the lawyers "lying". They only present the point of view of their client whom they represent.

 

[Allusonz]

Hmm. I wonder what happened with the Country Wide loan that Bob had to put up a note for AH? I think the entire history needs to be reviewed by LE, a process rather than an event type thing. There was a process which led to having to disappear Mr. Harrod upon him remarrying and imo it did not begin with his being reunited with his current wife.

IMO it began long before and may have began long before his 1st wifes passing.

A good forensic accountant to look at the whole picture here..

JMO

It would probably now form part of the trust. I would assume that the property is being rented thus those funds as well would go into the trust. I would think that by now there has been a fair bit of equity built into the home in the event that it would be sold. If it was sold then those funds as well would again become part of the trust.

 

[SuziQ]

Thanks, SuziQ. I read it before but I would like to see a PPD release so stating, not MSM.

~jmo~

I would like to see that too, but a statement from LE is not likely during an active investigation. A single smoking gun is rarely available in these cases.

 

[SuziQ]

Simply put no. LE has not released the "factual" information so it is their clients "opinion" at this point in time.

It is not about the lawyers "lying". They only present the point of view of their client whom they represent.

Does not sound like an "opinion" to me. I'm not reading anything that says, "In our opinion". Which some of my own legal documents state when I or my attorneys were stating our opinions.

(snip)
Even though a homicide investigation by the Placentia Police Department remains open and Jeff Michaels (son-in-law), Julie Michaels (youngest daughter), Andrew Harrod (grandson), and Petitioners Roberta Brady and Paula Borcher all remain persons of interest, Petitioners and Objector agreed to proceed through mediation before the Honorable Arnold Gold on March 25th, 2010.

 

[Cubby]

Your right it was presented. It was as well contested and we do not have the documents once again that have been obtained so I must simply go on my experience with them.

As well, if that had been myself in that position that the GS found himself in, I would in no way agree to something till at least the equity I had built up in the home was recognized in some way. That is just sound business.

Can anyone here state to me categorically that if they had paid $3,800/month for a number of years that they would just turn it over? Some may state they would but I can guarantee that many that do state that would in real life not do that.

It has become obvious to me that very few have dealt with a trust. They are an entity all to themselves, and if anyone, from any side tries to change the trust there are simply no winners save for the lawyers.

Where does one get any equity out of a property they lose to foreclosure or are about to lose to foreclosure? If that were the case-where banks hand over equity back to customers upon foreclosure, what is the purpose of lending money? No bank would remain in business.

Oh by the way, before we take your house back for non payment over the past few years, here's your equity Mr. Customer. Good one Allusonz! I needed that laugh this morning. lol!

 

[Cubby]

As for who AH was supposed to pay his mortgage to upon learning of his grandfathers disappearance. How about setting up a seperate bank account strictly for his mortgage payments? It provides proof of attempt to pay in a timely fashion without commingly mortgage due with his personal or business funds.

It's really not that complicated. It could have been done very easily with full disclosure as to avoid any appearance of unethical or illegal activity. In fact he could have done so and notified Mr. Harrod's attorney to keep it all on the up and up. That did not happen according to AH's depo.

 

[believe09]

Apology accepted for your omission in regards to Mrs Harrod contesting the trust.

I am satisfied with PPD PIO making it clear the BL was cleared. We know from her own posting that at least one of the daughters was dying to take a poly. I hope the results were accepted by all. It does interest me that with all of the laundry washing going on, she chose not to trumpet the results.

I think that it is disingenuous to believe that listing all of the reasons your father is detestable, a he said she said for sure since Bob cannot defend himself, has no bearing on his disappearance.

Do they want him found? Creating a climate where he is characterized as being so disgusting right down to the frozen foods he kept certainly doesnt inspire anyone to go to the mat looking for him.

I dont think they want him found. I have never believed they want him found. They put out a reward two years after he disappeared and it seems more likely it falls in line with their due diligence on the road to declaring him dead. I thought the timing was strange, I thought the clause stating family cannot collect was even stranger.

In any case, we are covering some pretty old ground here. Thank you cloudajo for continually providing the links requested no matter how many times they are asked for!

:blowkiss:

Still curious about the walk away from the debt, still curious about the purchase of the house and still curious as to the need to seal documents allowing AH to walk away from a huge debt.

However, first and foremost, still wondering where Mr Harrod is and when he will be brought home to the people who love and miss him.

 

[believe09]

Where does one get any equity out of a property they lose to foreclosure or are about to lose to foreclosure? If that were the case-where banks hand over equity back to customers upon foreclosure, what is the purpose of lending money? No bank would remain in business.

Oh by the way, before we take your house back for non payment over the past few years, here's your equity Mr. Customer. Good one Allusonz! I needed that laugh this morning. lol!

LOL-that is pretty funny.

 

[believe09]

Your right it was presented. It was as well contested and we do not have the documents once again that have been obtained so I must simply go on my experience with them.

As well, if that had been myself in that position that the GS found himself in, I would in no way agree to something till at least the equity I had built up in the home was recognized in some way. That is just sound business.

Can anyone here state to me categorically that if they had paid $3,800/month for a number of years that they would just turn it over? Some may state they would but I can guarantee that many that do state that would in real life not do that.

It has become obvious to me that very few have dealt with a trust. They are an entity all to themselves, and if anyone, from any side tries to change the trust there are simply no winners save for the lawyers.

Which part was contested and by whom?

Now I am really confused.

Are you stating the agreement wasnt made, the ruling wasnt made??? And that is why Andrew didnt quitclaim the house until this year? Even though he vacated it last year?

So he sat on the house for another 8 months still without making a payment on it. But he retained ownership of it.

Heeeellllppppp.

 

[believe09]

Does not sound like an "opinion" to me. I'm not reading anything that says, "In our opinion". Which some of my own legal documents state when I or my attorneys were stating our opinions.

(snip)
Even though a homicide investigation by the Placentia Police Department remains open and Jeff Michaels (son-in-law), Julie Michaels (youngest daughter), Andrew Harrod (grandson), and Petitioners Roberta Brady and Paula Borcher all remain persons of interest, Petitioners and Objector agreed to proceed through mediation before the Honorable Arnold Gold on March 25th, 2010.

It is simple enough for the people named by Mr Algorri to demonstrate that this is patently untrue.

 

[believe09]

I have as well as the information provided by the neighbor that posted in these threads. He had information such as the $50,000 van that was "given" to the BL.

You can't make this stuff up. Ok maybe you can but for me it seems more like the theme from a very poor movie. Sorry my quirky sense of humour showing again...

Did you get a chance to review the judge's decision on the civil suit against the BL? Did I miss the evidence presented by the co conservators that indicated proof any of it wasnt a gift?

PB did testify that while they DIDNT find any paperwork showing a loan of any kind made to BL, they did find documents of loans to family members. IIRC, she refused to turn that documentation over.

No matter, the co conservators were even required to pay BL's court costs. It seems to me that it is ok for Bob to give gifts to biological family but not to anyone else. Bob was entitled to hand over money to whomever he pleased-I am certain we all can agree on that.

It is that pesky undocumented forgiveness that seems so out of character.

If it wasnt Bob who left notes indicating he was adding his wife to his estate planning, who was it Allusonz? Who wrote them out? I would think that the co conservators and others who knew Bob could verify his handwriting.

I mean, it makes no sense for either Fontelle or BL to have a hand in Bob's disappearance. Fontelle was going to disappear the husband she loved and who loved her BEFORE she was added to his accounts? BL would disappear someone who had been giving her gifts of money?

Huh?

What makes abundant sense to me is those who needed/wanted/expected to be the beneficiaries of Bob's estate disappearing Bob BEFORE he could change anything. That makes way more sense to me.

BL and family=cleared via MSM sources that quote PPD PIO.

Even if you want to keep everyone else on the table, that keeps everyone else on the table. So who stood to benefit the most?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Your right it was presented. It was as well contested and we do not have the documents once again that have been obtained so I must simply go on my experience with them.

As well, if that had been myself in that position that the GS found himself in, I would in no way agree to something till at least the equity I had built up in the home was recognized in some way. That is just sound business.

Can anyone here state to me categorically that if they had paid $3,800/month for a number of years that they would just turn it over? Some may state they would but I can guarantee that many that do state that would in real life not do that.

It has become obvious to me that very few have dealt with a trust. They are an entity all to themselves, and if anyone, from any side tries to change the trust there are simply no winners save for the lawyers.

How long had AH lived in that house? Most of the early payments on mortgages go towards interest payments, so very little equity is built in the first few years. If his equity was less than a couple thousand dollars, it may not have been enough for him to fight for.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Respectfully Cubby whom would he pay it to?

You had the sisters and Fontelle both going for conservatorship. I would of advised him not to pay either party as it had not been settled as to who was going to oversee it.

He could not pay it to Mr. Harrod, whom he normally did.

As well, if they were trying to take the home away, without any form of compensation I would not pay either till an agreement had been finalized by a judge.

I have suspected that this new loan here was not just for the mortgage on the new home but for the back payment deemed owed to the trust, thus the reason for the $719,000.

I would suspect, from a credit point of view it played virtually no role in his credit ability.

He has had a business for 11 years. A person does not remain in business if you have a poor credit rating for long without problems.

If it was me I would of been up front with the bank from the start and in fact kept them apprised of the situation.

The only people that seem to be having an issue with it is here.

BBM

My former business partner (who ended up with over $90K of my money) had a sterling credit rating and appeared to be on sound financial footing, both personally and in her business. I learned the hard way that things can change faster than I would ever have imagined.

As to who AH would make payments to, if he was in doubt as to who to make them to, I believe what is usually done in such cases is to create an escrow account controlled by an independent third party that all sides agree to and make the payments into the escrow account. That way the money is present and accounted for until the dispute is resolved.

Doing anything else just looks incredibly bad... like you walked away from your mortgage.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I have as well as the information provided by the neighbor that posted in these threads. He had information such as the $50,000 van that was "given" to the BL.

You can't make this stuff up. Ok maybe you can but for me it seems more like the theme from a very poor movie. Sorry my quirky sense of humour showing again...

I think we can all agree that it is clear that the judge in the civil suit brought against the woman who cut Bob's hair was found not to have proven a single element of the claim against her.