CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #12

[zwiebel]

Oh, that's really interesting. I just presumed date of death would be from 27 July 2009. I'll go back and look at what the tax could be - a lot of money, I think.

Don't know if AH will continue to be the big earner (Bob's not around to lend a helping hand to his only grandchild now, after all) but I'm fairly confident he's the most adept of the family at taking care of his own interests. Not that he needs to really, I think. The trust has to be passed on through the family, doesn't it? There are no other grandchildren so, when Bob's children pass, there is only Andrew to inherit. Even if the cash is gone, the property will still be there. Nothing to be sneezed at, and with a bit of clever financing........well, who knows? You could inherit a property worth say, $275,000 or so, and raise $700,000 or so on it. Then just declare yourself bankrupt, or walk away from the debt. If you were that type of person, that is. I don't recollect if AH is that type of person now. Maybe he's better at recollecting financial information than me, and will provide the details someday.

 

[Seajay]

Seajay, I noticed those poor little missing Iowa girls have been discovered by a hunter on the last day of the season. Does California have a hunting season too? Or is the kind of terrain surrounding Placentia more suited to hiking only do you know?

Also, have just discovered that some very good friends of mine who now live in California and always put me and Mr Z to shame with their sensible attitude to finances - have gone absolutely stark raving bonkers there. They have done things with their house financing that I cannot believe. Cannot give details for fear of sleuthing them, but if you knew their background.......Not only is there something in them thar hills over there, there must be something in the air as well.

Here in staid old Germany, banks expect borrowers to have a deposit of about 60 per cent of the house price, and that's just for starters. Requests for 75 per cent aren't unusual. No surprise, over half of the population chooses to rent rather than buy. They'd rather have a nice, warm, rented apartment than own a freezing cold, crumbling old house. If my front door lock hadn't frozen shut, at this point I'd go out and find a nice, warm apartment myself...........

We have deer hunting season which opens late September-early October. I think it's open for about 3 weeks. We have "zones" up there and you have to hunt in the prime zones by "lottery." They went to that system years ago to limit how many hunters are in a particular area.

In the lottery, you can have up to 6 requests in one envelope, so that people can hunt together. Usually hunting is done in highly unpopulated areas so there is no chance of a local getting accidently shot.

Back prior to 2006, we had a big housing market boom where people could get homes with no money down and end up with what were called "interest only" loans. That meant you made monthly payments on the interest but never on the principle. It lowered the payments. Of course, over time, you owed more than you started out borrowing, and the houses depreciated in value so people were "upside down" on them. Many walked away from them when they were foreclosed on.

Now, loan institutions are stricter. Interest rates are really low but you have to have proof of employment, proof of income, to show you can make the payments. The homes out here in Southern California as expensive. Many people abandoned their homes in Riverside and San Bernadino Counties. But Los Angeles and Orange Counties fared better.

Values and prices dropped, but to buy a home here is still pricey. It's easy to go hog wild when buying a house here to get what you want, in the neighborhood you want. Use to be a million dollar house was a mansion. Now it's a 4 bedroom, 3 bath in a nice neighborhood.

 

[Seajay]

They may have a bit of a rush on their hands at the moment - it says the current threshold for estate tax in CA is five something million, but unless it gets passed again, that will drop to one million next year and affect many people. I am not sure what the threshold was in 2009, but I don't think it necessarily gives a clue to how much Bob's estate was worth - he may just have planned ahead for any tax legislation he thought may have affected him in the future.

Well, all those millions sloshing around in California. *There must be gold in them thar hills..........

It is my understanding, the DOD will be when he's declared dead, after the 5 year mark from when he disappeared. I think unless they come up with something else to PROVE he was dead before then, like a body or something, the DOD will be when the courts declare him dead. JMO

 

[zwiebel]

Looks like estate tax would be 35 per cent on anything over one million. But the same revert back was due to happen in 2011 in CA, and they had a 'lame duck' session of congress at the last minute in December 2010 and sorted it all out, apparently.

All credit to Mr Miris' law firm for this info, his website really is informative. And enlightening.

http://calestateplanning.blogspot.de/search/label/A/B Trust

 

[zwiebel]

No idea what a lame duck session is, by the way. Hope you guys know.

 

[zwiebel]

It is my understanding, the DOD will be when he's declared dead, after the 5 year mark from when he disappeared. I think unless they come up with something else to PROVE he was dead before then, like a body or something, the DOD will be when the courts declare him dead. JMO

Somehow, I can't see Bob's bio family being the ones coming up with proof Bob is dead - not if that means recovering his body anyway. Legal steps, yes. I think they have been faultless, in that respect. But I do fault them, because that isn't helping bring Bob home.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Oh, that's really interesting. I just presumed date of death would be from 27 July 2009. I'll go back and look at what the tax could be - a lot of money, I think.

Don't know if AH will continue to be the big earner (Bob's not around to lend a helping hand to his only grandchild now, after all) but I'm fairly confident he's the most adept of the family at taking care of his own interests. Not that he needs to really, I think. The trust has to be passed on through the family, doesn't it? There are no other grandchildren so, when Bob's children pass, there is only Andrew to inherit. Even if the cash is gone, the property will still be there. Nothing to be sneezed at, and with a bit of clever financing........well, who knows? You could inherit a property worth say, $275,000 or so, and raise $700,000 or so on it. Then just declare yourself bankrupt, or walk away from the debt. If you were that type of person, that is. I don't recollect if AH is that type of person now. Maybe he's better at recollecting financial information than me, and will provide the details someday.

I hope Gitana can confirm about the date of death thing.

As for AH inheriting because he's the only grandchild, well... if you imagine the estate as a train, there's no real control on how much is unloaded (spent). There might not be much left to inherit by the time his stop comes up.

That is, after all, what the family was afraid of when Bob said he intended to add Fontelle to his accounts.

 

[GrainneDhu]

No idea what a lame duck session is, by the way. Hope you guys know.

The last session of a governmental body after an election but before the newly elected take their positions.

It's more of a big deal in states like California which have strict term limits. Us smug Iowans have one senator from each party that we like and will keep re-electing forever or until they decide not to run again, whichever happens first.

ETA: those lame duck sessions are popular times to vote for salary increases for the elected representatives of the people and for tax increases. Anything unpopular is likely to come up at a lame duck session.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Somehow, I can't see Bob's bio family being the ones coming up with proof Bob is dead - not if that means recovering his body anyway. Legal steps, yes. I think they have been faultless, in that respect. But I do fault them, because that isn't helping bring Bob home.

That is an interesting point about the jump up in estate taxes. Considering the level of <cough> possessiveness demonstrated so far, I have to wonder who is being tempted right now to figure out some accidental way to find Bob before his estate will be subject to a tax hike.

 

[Cubby]

That is an interesting point about the jump up in estate taxes. Considering the level of <cough> possessiveness demonstrated so far, I have to wonder who is being tempted right now to figure out some accidental way to find Bob before his estate will be subject to a tax hike.

Oh man, wouldn't it be something if the changes did go through and having Bob declared deceased after the tax law changed they owed money to the IRS?

I don't know how the date of death works when a person is declared deceased. I do know when an MP is found deceased, the death certificate is listed with the date found regardless of how long they were missing.

 

[zwiebel]

Now I'm thinking the date death actually occured and the date of death on a certificate (going by when a mp is found) are going to turn out to be two separate legal entities.

When that wealthy man Steve Fossett crashed his plane and disappeared, I seem to remember he was declared dead before he was found, so his wife could take care of the estate. When he was found much later, and presumably a certificate issued for death on date found........would that mean in retrospect the first date of death no longer counted, and he would have been considered alive for tax and inheritance purposes etc, while his estate was being administered? And what on earth happens with the people found after 30 or 40 years?

I'm confusing myself just thinking about this and I'm sure it could lead to some horrendous complications. There must be a system in place for this - maybe there is an answer in another case here on WS? Or better still, maybe someone with legal knowledge will pop up with an answer, before I totally confound myself.

ETA wasted a lot of time researching that as I'd got the name wrong. Declared dead in Feb 2008, (Cook County) but discovered later and date of death then set as Sept 2007. Just can't figure out how people can have two dates of death, but it seems some do.

 

[zwiebel]

'Recently on March 18, 2011, the Placentia Police Dept and the Orange County sheriff's forensic team searched Robert's home. No follow up if they found anything.'

I don't recall seeing an actual date before, so am posting this old link just in case. Will put it in media links if it isn't there already.

http://www.examiner.com/article/robert-merle-harrod-missing-since-2009

 

[zwiebel]

Robert Harrod and/or Georgia Harrod (Harrod Trust) Estate
(This is a list of properties owned by Bob and/or Georgia Harrod, but not necessarily lived in by them.)

??-2000(06/02) N. Mar Vista Avenue, Pasadena, San Gabriel Valley, CA . Sold in 2000 by Robert/Georgia Harrod via Harrod Family Trust for $214,000.
??-2002(06/05) May Avenue, Monrovia, San Gabriel Valley, LA County, CA. Sold in 2002 by Robert/Georgia Harrod via trust for $465,000.
2002-2012: Carnation Drive, Placentia, CA 92870. Est home value $450,000.
??-2008(08/12) W. Cypress Ave, Monrovia, San Gabriel Valley, CA. Refinanced/resale in 2008 by Robert Harrod only via Harrod Family Trust, back to Trust for unspecified sum. Est value $275,000-$300,000.
1999-2012 Windflower Lane, Placentia, CA.Est Home Value £380,000-$437,000.
(financed by Bob&#8217;s Trust on behalf of family member, property has now reverted to trust).

Am still trying to work out what Bob&#8217;s property portfolio might have been worth. I&#8217;m sure this list isn&#8217;t comprehensive, but I&#8217;ve made a start, anyway. Can somebody do the math for me? I&#8217;d hate to spoil all that work by trying to add the figures up now.

 

[mikkismom]

As far as I can see, that is well over $1million (bp excluded )

ot/ love your new siggy

jmo

 

[zwiebel]

Wow, that was quick! Would have taken me all night!

(agonised about the siggy, but it had to be done!)

 

[Cubby]

Wow, that was quick! Would have taken me all night!

(agonised about the siggy, but it had to be done!)

Add me to the list of those who love the new siggy and your new avatar!

 

[zwiebel]

Mr Zwie's taken pity on me, seeing as no-one else has. It looks like from 1999 to 2009, Bob either owned, held mortgages on or had sold, properties worth a total of $1.784,000. Let's say $1.75m. That's going with the lowest of any estimated figures. This doesn't include any pensions, stock investments/bonds, cash, personal valuables, inheritances he or his first wife may have gained, or any personal assets left to him by Georgia. Or anyother properties I don't know about.

I feel we can safely assume Bob left assets of at least $2.5 million, very possibly more, IMO. I have noticed that all his property investments seemed very wise, bought in a rising, but not peak, market and never sold during a fall in prices. The only exception seems to be in 2008, when it looks like he possibly, somehow refinanced the house in Monrovia. This would have been the height of the property boom, just before the market crashed and some prices halved. That looks like a big - and unusual - mistake on his part, that could have meant difficulties if he wasn't so wealthy. And I question why he might have needed to refinance?

I can't help wondering if this was just Bob's decision or if the Monrovia house deal was done on behalf of someone else, or at someone else's urging - and if that might have resulted in any worries for that person, if my scenario is correct? In the crash of course, a lot of people found themselves struggling with negative equity and the prospect of unemployment.

It was the same in England too and people got so desperate - it's seen as the end of the world there, if you lose your home. Englishmen and castles, and all that. You can't give them away in Germany - people couldn't give a fig for the grand history, they just think about the heating bills in winter......

 

[believe09]

Quick question-what happens if the estate is bled to below the estate tax guidelines.

IIRC, the ByPass was established so that the assets of the surviving spouse would have a tax break. It was Georgia's 50%-the Survivors trust is Bob's 50%. Ideally, they are equivalent amounts....oh except for that pesky conservators account that was established at some point. So there are actually more vehicles out there holding Bob's hard earned assets than the two original.

 

[Cubby]

Good questions believe'. Is there any verified tax accountants at WS? Anyone know?

 

[zwiebel]

After a fair bit of sleuthing, I found our verified professionals list. Sadly, not a single financial expert seems to be amongst them. Some of the lawyers could be, but it's impossible to tell.

I'm going to see if I can find an answer, though I already have a dark suspicion about what it might be......didn't Gitana make a post about what can happen to these Trusts a while ago? A bit shocking, if I remember correctly.

ETA: I missed the point and question again. So if the estate drops below tax guidelines ( even if originally above), is any tax still payable? Have I got it now?