CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #14

[zwiebel]

I'm sure I saw a post about RB/PB cancelling the SS payments too. But now I'm beginning to doubt myself a little.

 

[zwiebel]

No, it's in the legal docs, isn't it? Where daughters are pleading for Fontelle to pay rent because the trust is making a loss and SS payments have been stopped?

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

SUPERB letter! Way to go!

Cloudajo, Yes, I can see it possible that CL would be told to skip cleaning the bathroom because it was unavailable due to repairs being done in it.
I would have to believe that CL told LE about that if it occurred.
It's important. She must have, it is in the show.
Since SIL left first, does that mean he completed those repairs?
Or said that he would be back to finish them the next day?
Does this point to Bob being attacked in the bathroom....unmade bed & no glasses..early in his day as he was going about his morning routines?

Having the doors open the day after, during the interview??????????????????
Hmmmmm. I have some thoughts on that but haven't thoroughly thought them through.

From a sociological viewpoint, it is extremely common for groups: familial, social, political, religious to adopt shared language...in this case "dark place" being a euphenism that got picked up and shared..and likely to avoid the hard words and truths...killed, homicide, murder & etc...you get my drift. Softening a harsh reality, avoiding it in denial. :facepalm:

Quite a number of pages/threads back, it was well explained how it would be possible to place a body in JeM's truck EVEN in broad daylight with very little likelihood of being observed at all.

Thank you for your kind words and compassion, Believe.

Did something happen, like the announcement that Disappeared would do a show on Bob on 3-26 or that it's airing date was released? or the forensic team did their search of the house on or around this date?
I ask because last night I read that JuM took Vicodin (an opiate) and drank alcohol (which is strictly forbidden, and she knows it). That indicated to me elevated stress and escapism. Alcohol reacts with the bipolar meds also. She had noted before that she could not and did not drink.
I would have some "slpaining to do"...but then perhaps she sought relief from physical pain, but I made note of it because it is such a no-no and is risky behavior. Something precipitated it.

Zwiel, you certainly seem on top of things to me!
I have resigned myself that it is going to take quite a while for me to even read up on what is known.
And that I can't stay up all night doing it.

It's a privilege to be a part of such an outstanding group all working to bring Bob home.

I really don't know if it's connected, but on the 26th we did get a little bit of info about daughter RB's former? husband, and we were talking about him on the thread. And I believe he was around at the time Bob disappeared.

I'm not casting aspersions on him, but I do wonder if JuM might be worrying about something he might say - info about family relationships/stresses, for example.

 

[zwiebel]

Maybe this post could have caused a bit of a stir?

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #14

 

[TDW59]

Thank you so much zwiebel! I think I consider that a trigger and a stressor that could be very anxiety producing.

Thanks for looking it up for me, my eyes did not want to stay open this am and I wound up going back to bed (med hangover, I took it too late 'coz I wanted to sit up and read after bedtime and others here had gone to bed.)

re: your post 1442, rent to cover shortfall. Yes, I recall reading that also and it was denied. Yet one of the sisters had quit paying her rent and AH's debt (mortgage and otherwise) is not being collected. I don't think any of our legal eagles have found a bankruptcy that would release them from this debt. Bob did not expect income from his residence, he did from the other two. The conservators poor and self-interested stewardship is what has put it in the red, cutting off it's income.

Also as a thought to throw out there, I would not have used a sheet to move the body, I would have used a blanket.

I can't seem to think about the bedding without first going back to the issue of blood evidence and the order of removing a body and cleaning any evidence in the time frame I have in mind with the belief one had the day to one's self, not knowing the CL would be there at noon.

Would you first remove and dump the body and then come back to clean up? I assume there would be some blood on perpetrator as well as whatever was in the house. JeM left for SOME reason and then returned, expecting to have hours to himself.
Or.
Would you stow the remains in the truck and clean yourself and the house up first, then dump the body? Where did he go then that he was not there when CL arrived? And working on the toilet was to augment his alibi of doing repairs.

I am working within a 2 hour time frame for the "dark things" to take place.

I can't seem to work myself around and within it, thus the reason I have suggested asphyxiation, drowning or drugging.

Perhaps I have overlooked where this has been worked out?

 

[MaryNo]

Yes, to all of this! BBM - and I'm very grateful, as well!

I also think that Agnes interrupted the premeditated, but unplanned (unmade bed/slippers still by bed, glasses/keys/wallet etc.) disappearing of Bob.

I'm taking your posts out of order, so sorry, but feel that Agnes, sheets, and making sure nothing else was amiss had some effect on Bob's ultimate destination. (Your post above RE:route and bypass trust)

Obviously, Bob's bed had been made at some point that morning. Not knowing that Agnes was coming (as he told her while letting her in) caused him to go upstairs to check if everything was normal. He doesn't know the usual cleaning routine. So, he possibly UNmakes the bed, thinking that Bob left it that way on the days Agnes came to clean.(?Never sure what someone would be thinking when in the middle of something like this) Not sure, because of the separation Bob imposed, and hey, they were a bit neglectful of Bob focusing on his money. So, instead of finishing what he started he now has to hang around with Agnes, appearing as if nothing's wrong "Bob's just out for a walk" "Bob probably went with a friend for a while".

So, what if he had returned in the middle of disappearing Bob, having forgotten something? Agnes is there, and he can't just leave again? Agnes threw a wrench in the process by being there. So, assuming Paula was truthful in the phone call, and Agnes truthful about her time of arrival, he didn't have much time to cover his tracks. Bob had to be somewhere close while Jeff was making time with repairs and Agnes.

He could have been "snoozing" in the truck (we know he'd fit, by demonstrations posted in these threads), or he was tucked away at a house about a block or so away. His ultimate destination could be anywhere between the house, and the hardware store, or between "up the hill", and Carnation drive. Or, close to the hardware store area, where there are no parking lot cameras. He could be located between that house a block or so away, and "up the hill".

I'm not really sure who left first. Did a report say Jeff left before Agnes, or was that "Disappeared"? But I think there are 2 different scenarios for this. He could have left at 1:00, finished what Agnes had interrupted, then off to the hardware store for receipt. Would Agnes have noticed when Jeff left for the Home Depot? He returns at 3:00 or so, then piddles around (looking for anything amiss, and goes home.

What if the crime scene isn't Bob's house, but somewhere close by? What if Bob got into the truck on his own accord, with the belief they were going to that house close by for some reason?

I feel Bob may be closer than we think, because of Agnes showing up in the middle of the disappearing. The route taken could be the closest as you surmise, but I feel in my gut that it's also one that is taken often, to keep an eye on Bob's location for disturbances, etc. It's possible Bob hasn't been found, because the starting point is possibly incorrect.

I have more ponderings, but hope for everyone's comments - picking this down to the bone.

Of course, this is all hypothetical, and no accusations intended. Any similarities to real people living or dead, is just coincidental.

I think a discussion about the sheets is well worth having. Here is my opinion-

To me, fwiw, Agnes made the bed because it was unmade. Cleaning a house would equal leaving it tidy, and leaving Bob's bed unmade would simply have defeated the purpose of cleaning his room.

I think she didnt strip the bed, wash the sheets etc simply because she never had to make the bed before. In 10 years, Agnes didnt make the bed. It wasnt part of what she did when she cleaned.

What I think is that JuM stating she was heading down the hill to change the sheets was just what it sounds-ludicrous. She headed down the hill to participate in her own way. I do believe cleaning was on her mind and those sheets were on her mind.

They were in an untenable position-CL wasnt supposed to be there. The house wasnt supposed to have been clean already. There wasnt supposed to be a witness to things going on inside of the house.

But there was and I am so thankful.

 

[zwiebel]

I don't think you've missed anything where we worked anything out. There are plenty of places where we have worked through ideas, but I don't know if any of us are near 'the' answer.

My own opinion is, police did find some forensic evidence inside Bob's home, during the last search in 2011. Oriah made a good post somewhere about forensic traces that can remain for years.

As the housekeeper never usually came on Mondays, Bob's friend and neighbour had moved, and Bob had become quite isolated - I think whoever disappeared him felt safe that no-one would call at the house, and their first concern would have been to remove the main body of evidence.....and that would have been Bob.

 

[suzyq211]

Would you stow the remains in the truck and clean yourself and the house up first, then dump the body? Where did he go then that he was not there when CL arrived? And working on the toilet was to augment his alibi of doing repairs.

<snipped>

IMO this ^.

I believe he came back from dumping Bob's body :-( to make sure nothing was overlooked/ repair anything that needed fixing.

 

[zwiebel]

MaryNo, I was replying to TDW59 and then your post popped up inbetween! What interesting ideas. What a good post. I didn't know, but apparently you have just outlined Mr Z's favoured theory. Very firm theory, in fact. I'm quite shocked, because he is usually indecisive.

Gosh. So much food for thought.

 

[zwiebel]

Flip. I'm in trouble now. Never post about your DH when he's reading over your shoulder.

Just to clarify - Mr Z is normally indecisive with small matters but can be very decisive with important matters.

 

[MaryNo]

Uh oh! LOL
BBM Understood

Flip. I'm in trouble now. Never post about your DH when he's reading over your shoulder.

Just to clarify - Mr Z is normally indecisive with small matters but can be very decisive with important matters.

 

[zwiebel]

Just to veer off for a minute; there have been questions previously about Bob's 'clutter', maybe with hints that this could be a sign of a disordered mind. Even the LE welfare report on the night he vanished said his home was 'clean, but cluttered'.

There are enough photos available of the interior of the home for me to have formed my own opinion - Bob's house, to me, looked just like a grandad's house. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well, today I helped clear a hoarder's house. The poor gentleman in question had caught pneumonia because he had collected so much firewood, he could no longer access any of his fireplaces. It was so bad, he had to be evacuated through his roof.

The firewood wasn't even the half of it. My eyes are still on stalks, honestly. Even after a day of work, we still haven't uncovered a cooker, or a bath. Or even a toilet.

Anyway, my point is, I know now that there is a big difference between a 'cluttered' house and a hoarder's house, and there should be no confusion between the two.

 

[TDW59]

LOL...busted Zwiebel!

I share my home with my fiancee, former air force and marital arts black belt, now disabled. and my bff roomate, a retired nurse.

I spun it out for them this am putting them in the place of the perp and asked what they would do in regards to specific questions that pertain to this case.
All 3 of us had a different MO!

O/T
One thing we do all agree upon is that JuM could not have steam cleaned the carpet.
Back problems, bad hip(s), bad knee, osteoarthritis....nope cannot do it.
Fiancee has a blown out knee. I have back problems but minor compared to JuM, Roomie has osteoarthritis. None of us can vacuum much more than 5 minutes without it becoming too painful and breaking out in a sweat. It even hurts me to run a swifter across a tile floor. So you can imagine how long it takes us to vacuum a very small living room and that it doesn't get done often enough.
Even with JuM's vicodin...it's a pretty mild pain killer and would not enable her to do that kind of work.
IF the carpet was cleaned, someone else did it.
CL would have vacuumed the day before.

I have only watched JuM's tv interview that day twice but the thing that keeps coming back to me is her initial words: "I am really scared."
Now THAT I believe.

 

[Cubby]

Agree if she was allowed into the bathroom. Maybe she was kept out.

Also, it looks like the bathroom Jeff was working in is upstairs - at the top of the stairs going up. You can see the same bathroom at 23:36, 25:12, and 25:14. The pic at 25:14 is marked "Actual Police Photos."

Oh wow, this is one of the things I hadn't noticed during the show.

The recorded episode I'm able to view is at a friends, so I was really hoping to figure out a way to view the recorded episode at home with sound.

Anyhoo, I just realized the Long Lost Love episode can be purchased on XBOX live. I was able to find my way to where to purchase it, but we don't have enough xbox points right now, so I am going to have my son help with it when he gets back from his dads.

I'll have to bribe him though with 20 dollars worth of xbox points and get the episode, and the rest of the points go to him....

I am sooo sooo excited I can view it on Xbox! :great:

Then I can go back over the details such as the actual police photo's, etc.

 

[Cubby]

I agree, the sheets have always been there, niggling away at many of us. I would love to be able to ask the CL if both sheets were on the bed!!

BBM. Oh, yes! I'd love to know too. That is something I would expect to learn at trial.

 

[Mels3kidz]

MaryNo said:

I feel Bob may be closer than we think, because of Agnes showing up in the middle of the disappearing. The route taken could be the closest as you surmise, but I feel in my gut that it's also one that is taken often, to keep an eye on Bob's location for disturbances, etc. It's possible Bob hasn't been found, because the starting point is possibly incorrect.
*******

Mel: I just keep coming back to the hwy up into Running Springs. Its very twisty. I virtually drove it on google earth and there are so many places along it where the sides drop off into steep canyons. It would take a very few seconds to push a body off the sides of one. That's why I was curious about that body found last year. Someone on the ROTW forums posted last April asking if any one knew what the commotion on the hwy was about. Someone else answered saying that a body of an elderly man was found and they wondered if "Jules knows". She popped on fairly soon afterwards was "sick to her stomach" and she contacted her sister who was going to call the Placentia police ect.

I just think he's somewhere that when he is found they'd know quickly...maybe even before the ID is made.

Mel

 

[Cubby]

Agree. The word "orchestrator" comes to mind.

• I can&#8217;t link, but I believe JuM called Social Services both times about Bob
• JuM is the one that found the &#8220;missing&#8221; documents at the family meeting on July 26
• JuM is the one that called Fontelle to say &#8220;Daddy&#8217;s missing&#8221; and to tell her about Jeff seeing the &#8220;suspicious&#8221; black SUV
• JuM is the one that crafted the extensive &#8220;memorabilia&#8221; list
• JuM is the one that went down the hill to Bob&#8217;s the day after Bob disappeared. She didn&#8217;t go back to her home in Running Springs until Friday, July 31 (according to her post on ROTW)

BBM. That would mean she was likely staying with her son, AH, wouldn't it? I mean, I can't imagine her staying at her dads once Fontelle returned, so she had to have been staying at her sons. That would have given them lots more time to discuss further planning, what went wrong, what needs to be done.

That too may explain why AH believed his grandfather was deceased the same week he disappearance.

 

[believe09]

Back problems, bad hip(s), bad knee, osteoarthritis....nope cannot do it.

There has to be a big IF here, TDW. Because if you spend anytime on ROTW, you will read a litany of cleaning, shoveling and gardening tales

So either we have a selected set of disabilites, or they are gravely over stated.

Changing the sheets and doing laundry for a two story house would have been an equal challenge, I would think. She didnt appear to have mobility issues when ushering Fontelle into her home when Mrs Harrod arrived on 7/29. Just sayin.

 

[believe09]

MaryNo said:

I feel Bob may be closer than we think, because of Agnes showing up in the middle of the disappearing. The route taken could be the closest as you surmise, but I feel in my gut that it's also one that is taken often, to keep an eye on Bob's location for disturbances, etc. It's possible Bob hasn't been found, because the starting point is possibly incorrect.
*******

Mel: I just keep coming back to the hwy up into Running Springs. Its very twisty. I virtually drove it on google earth and there are so many places along it where the sides drop off into steep canyons. It would take a very few seconds to push a body off the sides of one. That's why I was curious about that body found last year. Someone on the ROTW forums posted last April asking if any one knew what the commotion on the hwy was about. Someone else answered saying that a body of an elderly man was found and they wondered if "Jules knows". She popped on fairly soon afterwards was "sick to her stomach" and she contacted her sister who was going to call the Placentia police ect.

I just think he's somewhere that when he is found they'd know quickly...maybe even before the ID is made.

Mel

I 100% agree. If you followed her unglued vilification of her fellow posters who had the temerity to continue discussing it, you would have to believe that there was something about that location that caused some tenderness.

 

[zwiebel]

I don't think my nerves will stand it when the trial comes.

I so hope Bob is located before any trial. I hope Mrs Harrod doesn't ever have to live on the hope that a convicted person will 'do the right thing', because they hardly ever do, I think.