CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #16

[zwiebel]

This article here from 2000 mentions the improvement grant for Placentia, and that works would begin in Orangethorpe Avenue. That's close to Bob's house, isn't it?

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/25/local/me-57540

I wouldn't have thought works begun then would have carried on until 2009 - it's not as if it's England. The more I think about, the more I think the works going on in Bob's street that week in 2009 were just one-off kerb or surface repairs, and not part of the big programme. Wish we knew for certain though, and I hope LE checked it out at some point.

I can't get over what a homecoming that must have been for Fontelle; press outside, along with two of Bob's daughters, her packages all stacked up waiting to be unpacked, and then no Bob to turn to.

Apart from the obvious reason for it to be distressing, it must have been strange and maybe awkward for her too, for other reasons.

When Mrs Harrod left Carnation Drive, it was her and Bob's home; their private marital refuge. Nobody got in or out without her or Bob's permission. When she returned, his daughters had let themselves inside, changed linens and whatever. Repairs had been made. And two?? daughters were still there.

I suppose Mrs Harrod would have welcomed the support, but you know when there's been a crisis and you just want to hunker down at home for a while, to get some peace and gather yourself.......well, what happened then? Daughters had made themselves at home there, were in their father's house...

Did Mrs Harrod want to say, thanks so much, off you go now, I'll see you tomorrow - and by the way, leave the keys on the kitchen table. Did she feel able? I might have felt strange, as though the daughters were not just welcoming me home, but - by letting themselves in - were showing me it was 'their' territory too. Or even hinting it was just theirs.

I don't know. Maybe Bob had that kind of family life where the children just let themselves in and out whenever, and Mrs Harrod had grown used to it in the time she was there. She certainly looked a little shocked though, in the videos we have of her arrival.

 

[Cubby]

I think the street work could have been due to a broken water main or some other kind of pipe.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

This article here from 2000 mentions the improvement grant for Placentia, and that works would begin in Orangethorpe Avenue. That's close to Bob's house, isn't it?

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/25/local/me-57540

I wouldn't have thought works begun then would have carried on until 2009 - it's not as if it's England. The more I think about, the more I think the works going on in Bob's street that week in 2009 were just one-off kerb or surface repairs, and not part of the big programme. Wish we knew for certain though, and I hope LE checked it out at some point.

I can't get over what a homecoming that must have been for Fontelle; press outside, along with two of Bob's daughters, her packages all stacked up waiting to be unpacked, and then no Bob to turn to.

Apart from the obvious reason for it to be distressing, it must have been strange and maybe awkward for her too, for other reasons.

When Mrs Harrod left Carnation Drive, it was her and Bob's home; their private marital refuge. Nobody got in or out without her or Bob's permission. When she returned, his daughters had let themselves inside, changed linens and whatever. Repairs had been made. And two?? daughters were still there.

I suppose Mrs Harrod would have welcomed the support, but you know when there's been a crisis and you just want to hunker down at home for a while, to get some peace and gather yourself.......well, what happened then? Daughters had made themselves at home there, were in their father's house...

Did Mrs Harrod want to say, thanks so much, off you go now, I'll see you tomorrow - and by the way, leave the keys on the kitchen table. Did she feel able? I might have felt strange, as though the daughters were not just welcoming me home, but - by letting themselves in - were showing me it was 'their' territory too. Or even hinting it was just theirs.

I don't know. Maybe Bob had that kind of family life where the children just let themselves in and out whenever, and Mrs Harrod had grown used to it in the time she was there. She certainly looked a little shocked though, in the videos we have of her arrival.

BBM

For whatever reason, Bob felt the need to pay his daughters to stay away from him for six months. I'm not sure what kind of family relations that indicates beyond "bad."

I think it is possible that Fontelle was willing to put up with a lot from Bob's daughters in the spirit of cooperating towards a common goal. Sometime after that ever so sweet video of them greeting Fontelle outside the house, it became crystal clear to Fontelle that all Bob's daughters wanted were his material goods and not Bob himself.

She's a smart woman, I'm sure it adds to her grief that her spouse had been coping with those daughters of his for years. At some point, they were sweet and innocent children and then they grew up and something changed. I think Bob probably wondered where it all went so badly.

 

[zwiebel]

I think the street work could have been due to a broken water main or some other kind of pipe.

I wonder if Bob's water was turned off at some point, and what day?

 

[zwiebel]

I still find it hard to understand how they could have asked her to leave the house so soon after Bob disappeared. I know daughters said they did it because a lawyer told them to, but it still seems very hardhearted to me. And I just cannot comprehend what they thought Bob would say when he came back.

He might have disinherited them or never spoken to them again, for all they could have known. I don't think he would have cared who had told them to do it.

BBM

For whatever reason, Bob felt the need to pay his daughters to stay away from him for six months. I'm not sure what kind of family relations that indicates beyond "bad."

I think it is possible that Fontelle was willing to put up with a lot from Bob's daughters in the spirit of cooperating towards a common goal. Sometime after that ever so sweet video of them greeting Fontelle outside the house, it became crystal clear to Fontelle that all Bob's daughters wanted were his material goods and not Bob himself.

She's a smart woman, I'm sure it adds to her grief that her spouse had been coping with those daughters of his for years. At some point, they were sweet and innocent children and then they grew up and something changed. I think Bob probably wondered where it all went so badly.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I still find it hard to understand how they could have asked her to leave the house so soon after Bob disappeared. I know daughters said they did it because a lawyer told them to, but it still seems very hardhearted to me. And I just cannot comprehend what they thought Bob would say when he came back.

He might have disinherited them or never spoken to them again, for all they could have known. I don't think he would have cared who had told them to do it.

I believe that their actions scream that they did not think Bob was ever going to come back. AH failing to make his mortgage payment within 4 days of Bob's disappearance seems to me to be a clear indication that he knew that he'd never have to face Bob again.

Then the natural question is "what made them so certain?" And that is a question the Orange County DA is going to be thinking very hard about.

It is never a good idea to do things that cause a DA to start pondering such questions.

 

[zwiebel]

We should start a pondering club. First it was sres, then it was me, now it might be the DA...or someone equally phenomenal.

We'll have to rope off a special 'stare of doom' section for you if you join Grainne.

 

[Oriah]

We should start a pondering club. First it was sres, then it was me, now it might be the DA...or someone equally phenomenal.

We'll have to rope off a special 'stare of doom' section for you if you join Grainne.

Can I join?

Slightly O/T but I just received an investment report from my bank. It was a proposal for future investments, their active asset allocation info etc.
Their first bolded quote was "Many critical eyes, one vision."

The second in bold was Albert Einstein's famous, "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

And I began pondering how apropos for Mr. Harrod's case.

So we have many critical eyes and one vision- to bring Bob home.
Now how can we solve the problem by not using the same kind of thinking used in creating it?

 

[tlcya]

I still find it hard to understand how they could have asked her to leave the house so soon after Bob disappeared. I know daughters said they did it because a lawyer told them to, but it still seems very hardhearted to me. And I just cannot comprehend what they thought Bob would say when he came back.

He might have disinherited them or never spoken to them again, for all they could have known. I don't think he would have cared who had told them to do it.

I have yet to figure out why the lawyer would make such a recommendation considering Fontelle was legally married to Bob. Was the house titled in the trust? Yes, probably so, (thinking out loud here) but even still with his disappearance being so short lived at that point that suggestion by the lawyer stymies me. Bob could easily have shown back up two or three days later and been PIZZZZZZED had his new wife been unceremoniously ousted from the his home.

But everyone but Fontelle has acted as if Bob were not coming back since day one IMO. very telling to me.

 

[zwiebel]

Good morning Mr Harrod.

I have been pondering half the night over here. I'm going to use that word now instead of saying 'worrying', because it sounds much more satisfying. I think I've come up with an answer.

Trust.

Not the legal kind, the best kind.

Trust seems to have been lacking in many aspects around Bob's case or has, sadly, been misplaced. So to avoid the same kind of thinking that caused the problem, we could use trust to help solve it and bring others in to help. What a nice way of doing that it would be. A system of trust allowing people to reward themselves. It wouldn't cost anyone anything, and could hardly be betrayed, unless someone wanted to let themselves down.

 

[believe09]

Does anyone actually believe that their atty recommended to them that they throw her out? I think the family attorney, at least one who was seasoned in any way, saw the pitfalls of intimidating an elderly woman who had arrived to an empty house because her husband was missing due to foul play. (JuM's words posted on ROTW on 7/28/09)

I think they thought they could make that "Missouri Hayseed" (Mrs Harrod's final words in the Disappeared Episode) leave by intimidating her but more importantly, I think they couldnt help finally showing her their authentic feelings about her presence in their father's life.

We have hundreds of examples regarding how vile and out of control they can be. Imagine what it must have been like to face that in person...both Bob and Fontelle.

Now, would a some what green family law attorney recommend throwing her out on the street so that they could claim what they believed was theirs? Sure. imvho.

I think we need to do what Oriah recommends and change direction. I think the new media, the forthright statements by PPD, the intensified on the ground awareness and the focus from a SAR perspective might just be that change that can help to bring him home. Again, jmvho.

 

[tlcya]

I was being rather facetious in my attorney comment. There is no way an attorney would have made that suggestion IMO. At least not one worth his salt, unless the attorney was approached with the sole intent and question of "how can we get rid of this woman?"

 

[zwiebel]

An organization that I really like, COAC (Council on Aging Orange County) has a very interesting link to a news item on their FBpage;
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Council-on-Aging-Orange-County/112143127509

This is the news item;
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2013/07/wake-call-chinas-visit-your-parents-law/6377/

China has put a law in place that requires children to visit their parents every two months, and financially support them. One daughter has already been sued for neglect. The journalist who has written the article lives in California, is a mother of two, and isn't sure if the law applies to children living abroad.

That's a rather different view of family responsibilities from most of Europe and the US, where things seem to mostly work the other way. I don't think a law like that would be enforceable for us - not least because a lot of parents might not like it.

The thing with COAC is they absolutely take for granted that seniors should be enjoying their lives, spending and taking care of their money as they please, and going out and about when and - for as long - as they please. Having fun.

Perhaps that kind of attitude to life is what attracted Bob to settle in California. It was very late in life when Bob was totally free to enjoy himself, without responsibilities. CA was a good place for him to be then. He so nearly got to be a young-at-heart, carefree, happy senior living in California. He just didn't quite make it.

 

[zwiebel]

COAC also linked this. Have a look at it. A very special band, entertaining prisoners I think.
I bet those men wiping their eyes were thinking of their own moms and dads

Young @ Heart - YouTube

 

[zwiebel]

Has anyone found any follow-up in the OC Register about Bob's anniversary? I haven't found anything, but I can hardly see anything now because of the paywall.

 

[mikkismom]

This article caught my attention:

Suspect named in 2011 homicide, victim found in Ventura freezer

Read more: http://www.vcstar.com/news/2013/aug...011-homicide-victim-found-vent/#ixzz2bJaBcz3R
- vcstar.com

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I have yet to figure out why the lawyer would make such a recommendation considering Fontelle was legally married to Bob. Was the house titled in the trust? Yes, probably so, (thinking out loud here) but even still with his disappearance being so short lived at that point that suggestion by the lawyer stymies me. Bob could easily have shown back up two or three days later and been PIZZZZZZED had his new wife been unceremoniously ousted from the his home.

But everyone but Fontelle has acted as if Bob were not coming back since day one IMO. very telling to me.

If I were one of Bob's daughters, factually innocent and with no complicit knowledge, I would have assumed that my sisters and I had finally pushed my father too far and he had taken off to spend some time alone in a nice hotel. And that he'd probably told Fontelle what had gone on Sunday night and sworn her to secrecy. Not necessarily to scare my siblings and I but just because we'd gone too far in badgering him until all he wanted was some peace and quiet.

I wouldn't have assumed he'd disappeared involuntarily until the day after Fontelle returned, at the very earliest.

I'm not saying I represent what anyone who is innocent would do or think but I do find it very odd that the daughters' words portrayed one set of assumptions but their actions showed they were acting on very different assumptions. Curiously enough, it turned out that the logical assumptions inferred from their behaviour appear to be the correct ones.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Does anyone actually believe that their atty recommended to them that they throw her out? I think the family attorney, at least one who was seasoned in any way, saw the pitfalls of intimidating an elderly woman who had arrived to an empty house because her husband was missing due to foul play. (JuM's words posted on ROTW on 7/28/09)

SBM

When my first husband left me, I found the best lawyer in town by asking everyone (even strangers in stores) for suggestions, making a list of the top three and then researching their records. My lawyer had been in practice for decades, had won cases that set precedents in our state and had presented cases in front of the US Supreme Court (and won). She was also the most expensive lawyer in town. My soon-to-be-ex's parents funded his lawyer and they chose the daughter of their friends who had been in practice for less than a year when the case started. When it finally went into court because my ex forced it, she had never argued a case for real before.

I learned a lot from my lawyer. Not just about what my rights were but about how a good lawyer/client relationship works and how it can be sabotaged by the client.

She told me up straight within the first 15 minutes of our first meeting that she could only work with what she was brought. Some things, we would hire various experts for but some things were things that only someone within the relationship could know. If I didn't tell the truth and more of it than I could imagine she would want, then her advice would be useless. That I could present situations to get the answer I wanted but that answer would do me no good in the long run.

She also told me that in her area of expertise, she expected me to follow orders and to ask her when in doubt as to how to act.

After her first meeting with my ex's lawyer, she came back laughing and said "well, it is clear she has no control over her client at all and is too inexperienced to realise she needs to get him under control or fire him as a client."

There weren't any children or large amounts of property in play, so the whole thing should have been settled out of court and sent to the judge for a rubber stamp approval. Instead, my ex dragged it on and on and his lawyer either didn't realise he was shining her on or was too inexperienced to look him in the eye and tell him that was unacceptable conduct.

Not too surprisingly, they lost big, real big, in court. Now that I think about it, the judge's opinion read very similarly to the opinion in the case with the BL.

It is possible that the lawyer who told the daughters to kick Fontelle out had not been given the whole picture so the daughters could get the advice they wanted to hear.

Or, as they say: garbage in, garbage out.

 

[zwiebel]

Client attorney privilege ensures we will never hear from the attorney how the situation came about, either, or exactly who suggested what.

In retrospect, it doesn't seem to have been a very wise thing to have done, anyway. Mrs Harrod is still in the home four years on, and the request for her to leave the house so soon still reflects badly on those who made it, imo. It just seems very unkind.

 

[cloudajo]

Hi Zwiebel. FYI, I don't see any articles/mention of Bob in the OC Register.

I just sent a request to Louis Casiano, the reporter who is now covering Placentia.

His email is [email protected]