CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #17

[zwiebel]

OMG. Here's a case.

'Karlsen said his ex-wife's death, his son's death and even a 2002 fire at his Seneca County Farm that killed his Belgian draft horses, for which he collected $80,000 in insurance money, were all just coincidences."

First wife's death involved a kerosene spillage in a bathroom, faulty wiring and a boarded up window with 17 nails. Now that's a run of coincidences. I'm going to keep an eye out for the verdict here, and maybe go buy my neighbours' draft horses a big bag of carrots when it's in.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/t/story/wifes-fear-leads-husband-deaths-20265539

 

[zwiebel]

He's from CA. Police are reinvestigating there too. He's using a walking aid here, so obviously has mobility issues and you could almost feel sorry for him. Almost.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index....rica_highlights_karl_karlsen_murder_case.html

 

[sreshowtime]

Hmm...I know the trust related stuff has been mentioned, but has the presence of a life insurance policy ever been mentioned in Mr. H's case? Either owned by himself or others? And initiated at some point, back in time perhaps? (Others could have an insurable interest I suppose)... Sorry I can't recall if so.


I don't know when laws/rules may have changed...as far as the insured's signature, etc. needed to issue such policy if sought by 'other', but I suppose there is always fraud along those lines.

(eta I just recalled/checked- got a policy on DD after she was an adult , no siggy needed from her, now granted this was hmm, 10 yrs ago?)

 

[zwiebel]

I remember this being brought up, but I don't think we found any indication either way.

Working through it, I would say if Bob worked for one company for over thirty years, and another for ten, there would be pensions and maybe a continuing life insurance policy from them? Given how good he appears to have been with money, and caring for his family, I am sure he would have had good insurance in place, whatever the case.

I did think that after Georgia died, he might have thought a policy that paid out upon his death wasn't necessary and cancelled it/cashed it in. The trouble is, when you do that, you lose most of the money you put in over the years - or all of it. I don't think Bob would have wasted money, so I do believe his life was insured, probably for a significant amount. That will go to his estate, I presume, when and if it pays out.

I'm not sure if police would have any way of checking if 'Bob' had taken out another, 'secret' policy. Not until a claim goes in. But it couldn't be secret now, anyway, because family must have seen Bob's will by now. If he hasn't specified any such insurance goes to a certain person, it will go straight into his estate, I'd think. If he has specified a certain person, they will benefit, in theory.

In my opinion, any insurance company is going to look very carefully at any claims going in, especially if Bob hasn't been found.

Do you have insurance in the US where medical and life are in one policy, or are they usually separate?

 

[zwiebel]

Ugh. Horrible, horrible math in here but it gives some idea of what an aerojet employee's pension would be, who retired before 89. If you can do math.

http://benefits.northropgrumman.com...ges/NG Pension Changes SSD Heritage_Final.pdf

Was Bob an employee or a contractor though? Not sure a contractor would be entitled to the benefits. Anyhow, if he was, he could also have opted for a single life annuity or a surviving spouse annuity.

I don't really know what that means though.

I clicked here and thought Aerojet were offering me a job for a moment. Why on earth is someone's job offer in the government archives now?

Uh oh. Deleted it. I don't think that was posted by the government - it just came from them. And it had the name edgar in the URL. That rings a warning bell. Sorry.

No, it's not Edgar, it's the name Edward I was thinking of. I'm still not relinking though, just in case. I don't like all this defence stuff.

 

[sreshowtime]

zwie- in my father's case- his will did not stipulate the VA death benefit, Federal Employees' Group Life Insurance Program benefit,NALC benefit, life insurance nor money market accounts...those all had beneficiaries or POD (payable on death),
all aside from his will provisions. He had also pre-paid his funeral.

Thankfully he had kept me informed, much to the chagrin of the 2nd wife

So, that said, no telling what Mr. H had planned out.

 

[sreshowtime]

O/T waxing philosophical today....“When you have established that one alternative is good and the other is evil, there is no justification for the choice of a mixture. There is no justification ever for choosing any part of what you know to be evil.”
Ayn Rand

 

[zwiebel]

Gosh though, it's hard to establish that good and evil. So many (mostly) wives are killed by their husbands, for example. I guess very few women marry a man they think might kill them, yet often - sometimes after years of marriage, thick and thin, kids - they are killed. By someone they thought they knew and could trust and love.

It's a frightening thought, that someone you are certain you know best, and is good....is something else, too. Enough to shake your world, if you are even touched by something like that in your life. Does the evil part cancel out the good part? Does the good part you know, mitigate an evil act?

Obviously, none of those deep philosophical questions apply if you're the victim of a good person's evil act, as you are no longer in a position to speak or think for yourself. Personally, I think I have quite clear cut lines, with very little tolerance. I know what I think evil is, and if I sense that in someone, I'm gone. Without a single backward glance. As fast as I can, no matter what the cost.

It doesn't mean I'm safe though, I know. Anyone of us, anyday, could discover the evil within a 'good' person, that neither we, nor anyone else, saw coming. I suppose the best we can all do, is stay hopeful and avoid any unnecessary risks. Try and be nice, and keep company with nice people. Lol, sometimes I think Mr Z is a terrible husband, but I'm always sure he's quite nice and kind. That's why I married him. It doesn't sound much of a reason, but it means a lot to me.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I haven't come across another case where anyone has dismissed something as just coincidence though, and left it at that. I can't recollect one instance. I haven't been here long though, so maybe some of our other posters could point me to a case where the coincidence word has been used?

SBM

Not at the outset of a case.

Almost every case I have ever read had a happening that seemed like a lead but turned out to be a coincidence. For example, in the Amber DuBois case, her stepfather was at home the morning that Amber disappeared sorting out his taxes and then he went out, bought flowers and took them to Amber's mother at work. He'd never done anything like that before, so that seemed very odd. He was under suspicion, including by his wife (and it broke their marriage). In the end, it was a different perp altogether and the flowers were just evidence of a romantic whim.

It isn't until the case is solved that coincidences are identified. Every case has at least one but until the case is solved, there is no telling what it is.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Hmm...I know the trust related stuff has been mentioned, but has the presence of a life insurance policy ever been mentioned in Mr. H's case? Either owned by himself or others? And initiated at some point, back in time perhaps? (Others could have an insurable interest I suppose)... Sorry I can't recall if so.

I don't know when laws/rules may have changed...as far as the insured's signature, etc. needed to issue such policy if sought by 'other', but I suppose there is always fraud along those lines.

(eta I just recalled/checked- got a policy on DD after she was an adult , no siggy needed from her, now granted this was hmm, 10 yrs ago?)

This is yet another example of where the details vary state by state.

I think it is universal, though, that insurance cannot be taken out on someone's life without that person's knowledge and signature. And yes, fraud is always a concern. The insurance companies do their own investigations and they are not necessarily bound by the results of any criminal charges.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I remember this being brought up, but I don't think we found any indication either way.

Working through it, I would say if Bob worked for one company for over thirty years, and another for ten, there would be pensions and maybe a continuing life insurance policy from them? Given how good he appears to have been with money, and caring for his family, I am sure he would have had good insurance in place, whatever the case.

I did think that after Georgia died, he might have thought a policy that paid out upon his death wasn't necessary and cancelled it/cashed it in. The trouble is, when you do that, you lose most of the money you put in over the years - or all of it. I don't think Bob would have wasted money, so I do believe his life was insured, probably for a significant amount. That will go to his estate, I presume, when and if it pays out.

I'm not sure if police would have any way of checking if 'Bob' had taken out another, 'secret' policy. Not until a claim goes in. But it couldn't be secret now, anyway, because family must have seen Bob's will by now. If he hasn't specified any such insurance goes to a certain person, it will go straight into his estate, I'd think. If he has specified a certain person, they will benefit, in theory.

In my opinion, any insurance company is going to look very carefully at any claims going in, especially if Bob hasn't been found.

Do you have insurance in the US where medical and life are in one policy, or are they usually separate?

Bob's working career was far enough back that if he had life insurance through his employer, his employer probably paid a significant percentage of the premiums. That makes cashing out much more attractive, since the cashed out value includes the employer's contribution.

Same thing on a possible pension; his career went back far enough that he almost certainly was receiving a pension. There was probably a marital pension benefit, too, in case he died before Georgia. (Those were the days!)

I'd be surprised if he continued the policy after he retired, since it looks like he amassed a respectable amount of money and certainly had more than enough to care for Georgia had he preceded her in death.

If Bob had purchased a life insurance policy that was not included in his will, it would go to the beneficiary of the policy. I doubt he did that since, at his age, the premiums would have been huge and I bet he knew he could do better simply investing the money himself. He does not seem to have lived an extravagant lifestyle with the exception of his ongoing generosity to those he loved.

Something else to consider is that the only life insurance policies that are available without a physical exam are relatively low cost ones, the ones that used to be called burial policies. Those policies are typically for less than $20K and are intended to be used to cover the costs of the funeral.

Medical and life insurance policies are separate in the US. Some of the big insurers will negotiate package deals with large employers but each employee is free to take one but not the other. Bob, of course, had long since qualified for Medicare although he may well have had a supplemental policy to cover the costs that Medicare doesn't cover.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

O/T waxing philosophical today....“When you have established that one alternative is good and the other is evil, there is no justification for the choice of a mixture. There is no justification ever for choosing any part of what you know to be evil.”
Ayn Rand

A woman whose ideas on good and evil were quite... um... ah... interesting. Without nuance.

And something like 2500 years out of date. Buddha taught that there are very few decisions in life that can be regarded as completely good or completely harmful so the correct path to take is to minimise harm while acknowledging that the harm is being done.

 

[sreshowtime]

yes Rand , is...um, ah interesting .. the Institute is in Irvine, close to Placentia btw

 

[zwiebel]

I wonder if that writer ever got to see her Mom and Dad and family again, before she died? If they survived of course. Middle class Russian Jews under Stalin, with the German invasion on the way too. I wouldn't give much for their chances. She couldn't get them out of Russia.

That must have been hard, because she had left (fled?) Russia and knew what they were going through, but was powerless to help. Really helpless, with Stalin and his regime as opponents. I've often wondered how those who sought refuge in the US in the first half of the 20th Century coped - there were so many who left loved ones behind in terrible circumstances. I suppose they just had to get on with their lives, because it was a choice between that or total misery, or worse. Many of their missing family members were dead anyway. I wouldn't call it self-interest or selfishness - just survival. I think many survivors did feel terribly selfish and guilty though.

I wonder if feelings like that played any part in forming Rand's philosophy of putting yourself first?

I find it amazing; now we have the internet there are so many sons and daughters of refugees from Rand's generation, and their children (and their children too) out there, still trying to find missing relatives from so long ago.

Sometimes they find them too. Look at this pair hugging. They were only married three days before they lost each other. That's true love for you.

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/243.jpg

ETA: Fuller details here. Some remarkable similarities with Bob and Fontelle's story, I think.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1575382/Russian-couple-reunited-after-60-years-apart.html

 

[sreshowtime]

wow ...

 

[zwiebel]

I've been in the Library of Congress. My head's spinning. It's awful big in there.

Does anyone have any idea what kind of music Bob might have liked, being born in 1928 in rural MO, but being a young man in CA, in the fifties? I've read his house was filled with music. Bob doesn't seem to be a rock n roll type to me, but maybe someone has ideas?

I was thinking hymns and choirs might have figured large in his formative years, as he had a Baptist upbringing. I have heard some wonderful Baptist choirs, but they were all Welsh ones - 'Chapel' - from the green valleys. It's probably not the same thing at all.

Hop on over and have a little listen to this though, it's very short. Just a bunch of smalltown, hardworking folk, from a very wet, very green, tiny country, singing in their free time. The Ogmore Valley Male Voice Choir.http://www.philogmore.co.uk/two/NewChoir.html Thousands of miles away from CA. But if this song wasn't made for Bob, I don't know what was. 'Take Me Home'.
http://www.philogmore.co.uk/two/s_Take Me Home.mp3

 

[zwiebel]

Those Welsh can ask you what the time is and it sounds like a poem.

 

[zwiebel]

A little gem of an article about dogs for our SAR and training folk, and anyone interested in the subject of man (and woman's) best friend.

Pomeranians, like Bob's Sassy, have fan sites devoted to them, by the way. Some of them hugely popular. It's not surprising because to me the puppies look very like a cross between a puppy and a teddy bear - cartoon cute.

Losing Sassy must have seemed like the final blow to Bob at the time, after losing his vivacious wife. He must have felt so alone. That day his phone rang, and Fontelle was on the line, I think he must have felt like the luckiest guy in the world.

ETA Forgot the link: http://www.theguardian.com/science/...p/23/dogs-uncomplicated-relationship-research

 

[zwiebel]

O/T My profoundest sympathies go out to all the victims of the shopping mall attack in Kenya. I've heard the most astounding tales of cowardice (adults climbing over children attending a cookery exhibition, to escape the gunmen) and bravery today ( a doctor's son getting INTO the mall twice, to rescue his dad and all his patients and staff).

It's said a crisis can bring out the best and the worst. I don't know what to say really. Authorities say they are in control of the mall now. I don't know what they will find. The interview I heard with the cookery teacher was awful to hear.

 

[minusfour]

I am slowly making my way through all the threads for Mr Harrod- thank you for all your fine work, which is unbelievably impressive. I am finding the going hard at times, oh, it is so frustrating what hasn't been done, so sad to think that at that point in Mr Harrod's life, after working hard, and raising a family, and doing the right thing/s that he can suddenly disappear, and nothing happens!

Can I cheat though, the posts on other sites about this character, from his daughters, were they all removed? (I know some were)

In the Melbourne Herald Sun over the past two days have been no less than two stories about people who have been missing more than twenty years. In both cases no body has ever been found, but homicide is accepted as occurring. In one, a man has just pleaded guilty to killing a teenager. (Someone dobbed on him, about two years ago, he was already in prison for an infamous double murder) In the second, a couple were the last to see another teenager, decades ago. The police have announced on the front page that they are reopening the case, and seem to be quite openly inferring that the man harmed her, now the couple have separated, they seem to be hoping the woman will tell them anything she knows. Both of these young women have been missing for so long it seemed that they would never be found. Things change thank goodness.