CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - # 9

[Cubby]

CA CA - Bob Harrod-Court Documents No discussion - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I am not sure whether or not guests can search or read them...but I encourage lurkers to join in and give us your thoughts.

Bumping to the current page.

 

[Fairy1]

Well, jeez. I read the depo. Wow.

Dropped him out of an airplane? Never heard that one before! Is he a pilot?

Andrew should probably consider finding a new lawyer. Then again, I hope he doesn't .

I found it quite humorous that his attorney would not allow him to respond to any questions pertaining to his own "intent," but let him blather on about Bob's "intent."

I am stunned, really. Happy to see some contention amongst the family as I do believe that will be the straw that breaks this camel's back.

Good Lord. I have never been so happy to be poor! Money makes people ugly.

 

[GrainneDhu]

What exactly did Andrew have to be angry about? He stopped making payments long before his aunts were appointed.

He was clearly angry his Aunts were trying to collect. Thing is, if he didn't know where to make the payments because his grandfather was missing and he was unsure of Mrs. Harrod, then he should have opened a seperate account and made payments on the deed to that account. Instead he did nothing. He alleges he made payments which he commingled with his general account.

This clearly tells me it is very likely Mr. Harrods remarriage was the catalyst for his disappearance. For any number of reasons which could range from greed, or the need to cover up something more nefarious, some illegal fraud with regards to Mr. Harrods funds.


It amazes me no arrests have been made. Yet at the same time, there are 5 players here which I assume LE would want to arrest and charge at the same time. I guess time will tell how LE's hand unfolds.

BBM

Well, in just under 4 years, the Harrod estate has been drawn down to less than $1 million.

I don't need any special powers of prophecy to see that this cannot continue indefinitely. The less money there is in the estate, the faster it will be drawn down (money makes money; less money makes less money). A healthy estate brings in more than goes out; Bob's estate doesn't look too healthy to me.

The Harrod daughters are (IIRC) in their 50s; AH is in his middle thirties. To put it crudely, he's looking at having to fund 20 more years of life than his aunts are. How dare they quit working when his own retirement is in question??!!!!

 

[GrainneDhu]

very similar exchange, and too funny that this testimony was elicited by the atty for the trustees. So Ah stops making payments even tho when the next payment came due it was a mere two weeks after his grandfather disappeared, based on the fact that his grandfather would not mind as he was going to forgive the debt on his death.

The trustee PB acknowledges that AH held the position that his grandfather would forgive the debt upon his death, only she alters it to soften the implication by saying "That after his--that he was no longer here, that his house would be free and clear."

BBM

Do we actually know that Bob intended for the debt to be forgiven on his death? Is there any independent evidence to base this on beyond AH's word?

 

[GrainneDhu]

The purpose of the trial on 10/31/2011 was to impeach the co conservators. One of the arguments to appoint a third party TTEE was because every single bill and expense was paid for out of the Survivors Trust. Including PB's gardener, mind you. Including repairs JeM (I kid you not) allegedly made to the houses on Carnation Dr, Windflower and PB's home. The PI was paid for out of the Survivors Trust, and apparently the PI told EA he was the co conservators bodyguard. The co conservators legal fees were paid out of the Survivors Trust.

I think my favorite expense was the hotel room hired by JuM so that she, PB and RB could meet with the PI. Um ok. The rationale was that he was allergic to cats and everyone had them.

At a mediation hearing on the previous Friday, according to the sworn testimony in the trial, the co conservators agreed to fix all of that stuff. To pay the Survivors Trust back. Even for the bodyguard I guess.

Another thing you will learn when we can get the minutes posted is that on July 30, 2009, AH, PB, RB and JuM went to meet with Fontelle and her daughter at Carnation Dr. AH told her that they had hired and atty and that they were advised to throw her a** out on the street. AH apparently did all of the talking. Also, apparently, JuM emptied out a jt bank account that she was on with Bob and Georgia. She bounced checks because she cleaned it out. I find that interesting as well fwiw.

The request for a third party was denied, incidentally. The judge's tentative was that he didnt see anything egregious. He saw warts and mistakes. I see them too.

Poor Fontelle. She thought she was marrying Bob, her first love.

She didn't realise she was marrying into the California version of the Corleones.

And yeah, if I were one of the co-conservators, I'd sure feel the need for a bodyguard. To guard against, at most, three people.

 

[Fairy1]

BBM

Do we actually know that Bob intended for the debt to be forgiven on his death? Is there any independent evidence to base this on beyond AH's word?

No. And, technically, it has not been legally established that Bob is deceased.

Sorry, ya'll, but until we find out what happens here in the end, I'm no fan of Fontelle, either. Bob had lots of money and assets and that made him a perfect target, period.

Reading the depo of the grandson made me think even more......

Bob never put anything in writing saying that his grandson's loans would be forgiven upon his death? I don't really believe that, but the same could be claimed for any others to whom he gave money. And we know he gave money to others.

Just sayin' - there are others who could possibly have profited from Bob's death.

 

[Cubby]

The question for me isn't who would profit the most from Bob's death, but rather who stood to lose the most if he lived. Especially when Bob's plans for Bob's money differed from what others expected or demanded of Bob's money.

 

[Allusonz]

It's a 28MB PDF file so I can't attach it, here's a link to download it:

http://www.websleuths.com/cases/harrod/AHDepoWS.pdf

Ok I need to look this over. Thanks!!

Is this the confidential document? Sorry have not had time to read this. Nevermind it appears not to be

 

[Angelo]

Poor Fontelle. She thought she was marrying Bob, her first love.

She didn't realise she was marrying into the California version of the Corleones.

And yeah, if I were one of the co-conservators, I'd sure feel the need for a bodyguard. To guard against, at most, three people.

BBM~~~~

Yes, and one's "handyman" special!

 

[believe09]

GrainneDhu-please forgive me for constantly misspelling your hat. I am so driven by your observations, I get careless and I apologise.

Not that our observations matter to the court, but thoughts on whether or not the girls have breached their fiduciary responsibilities? They pursued Andrew for his mortgage payments, if you believe the testimony of Andrew and PB. Slowly pursued him, but whatever. They allowed him to quitclaim the house, I guess, in lieu of payment.

They apparently accepted the argument that Bob intended to forgive Andrew his 750K debt upon the death of Bob. Since the real estate is held (at least most of it) in the ByPass trust, I guess they felt they could do as they wish. Whether or not this constitutes keeping Bob's assets in tact and whether or not this follows the guidelines established by the trust...well I guess that is the grey area here. For me anyway. I mean you kill a 750K asset in return for a house that has a current value of what....I mean he bought it for roughly 300K. CA real estate has tanked. What could it possibly be worth now? 350k? So they threw away 400K of an asset and the terms of the forgiveness do not appear to be documented anywhere.

If I were cynical, it would look like a payoff of sorts to me.

And then we have those personal loans to Andrew totalling over 100k. Are those an asset of the ByPass? Are they an asset of the Survivor's trust? Have they been forgiven too? And what kind of lifestyle does Andrew lead that could possibly require the kind of cash he apparently had to have?? The money he cant remember where he put it....And now he lives in an affluent area, according to his mother. I am sure he does, but it seems like it will be just a matter of time before he puts the bite on again. JMO

According to PB's sworn testimony in the BL lawsuit, there was loan paperwork for family members. She refused to disclose it to the court or the BL. I am not surprised at all.

Did I mention on top of everything else there is a Conservator Account? It is an account that PB refers to in her testimony in the trial as "our account." It is supposed to contain Bob's IRA money. But I guess it is RB's and PB's account.

I dont know enough about this stuff.

 

[SuziQ]

No. And, technically, it has not been legally established that Bob is deceased.

Sorry, ya'll, but until we find out what happens here in the end, I'm no fan of Fontelle, either. Bob had lots of money and assets and that made him a perfect target, period.

Reading the depo of the grandson made me think even more......

Bob never put anything in writing saying that his grandson's loans would be forgiven upon his death? I don't really believe that, but the same could be claimed for any others to whom he gave money. And we know he gave money to others.

Just sayin' - there are others who could possibly have profited from Bob's death.

Respectfully, and maybe I'm interpreting your statement wrong, what single thing has Fontelle done wrong?

 

[GrainneDhu]

GrainneDhu-please forgive me for constantly misspelling your hat. I am so driven by your observations, I get careless and I apologise.

That has got to qualify as one of the most flattering apologies ever! <BLUSH>

Not that our observations matter to the court, but thoughts on whether or not the girls have breached their fiduciary responsibilities? They pursued Andrew for his mortgage payments, if you believe the testimony of Andrew and PB. Slowly pursued him, but whatever. They allowed him to quitclaim the house, I guess, in lieu of payment.

They apparently accepted the argument that Bob intended to forgive Andrew his 750K debt upon the death of Bob. Since the real estate is held (at least most of it) in the ByPass trust, I guess they felt they could do as they wish. Whether or not this constitutes keeping Bob's assets in tact and whether or not this follows the guidelines established by the trust...well I guess that is the grey area here. For me anyway. I mean you kill a 750K asset in return for a house that has a current value of what....I mean he bought it for roughly 300K. CA real estate has tanked. What could it possibly be worth now? 350k? So they threw away 400K of an asset and the terms of the forgiveness do not appear to be documented anywhere.

If I were cynical, it would look like a payoff of sorts to me.

And then we have those personal loans to Andrew totalling over 100k. Are those an asset of the ByPass? Are they an asset of the Survivor's trust? Have they been forgiven too? And what kind of lifestyle does Andrew lead that could possibly require the kind of cash he apparently had to have?? The money he cant remember where he put it....And now he lives in an affluent area, according to his mother. I am sure he does, but it seems like it will be just a matter of time before he puts the bite on again. JMO

According to PB's sworn testimony in the BL lawsuit, there was loan paperwork for family members. She refused to disclose it to the court or the BL. I am not surprised at all.

Did I mention on top of everything else there is a Conservator Account? It is an account that PB refers to in her testimony in the trial as "our account." It is supposed to contain Bob's IRA money. But I guess it is RB's and PB's account.

I dont know enough about this stuff.

I really wish I were a lawyer and understood these matters better. Anything I have to say is said from a layperson's point of view and may well be inaccurate or just plain wrong.

It seems to me that if the conservators were doing their job properly, the estate would still be worth roughly what it was worth the day Bob disappeared.

I know that in my state, banks and lawyers who act as conservators usually take a percentage of the worth of the estate as their compensation; therefore, they will not act as conservators for estates under a certain value (usually around $350K at least). Their fiduciary duty is to preserve the overall worth of the estate.

To me, Bob's estate should have been a no-brainer to run; put enough money together and it practically breeds itself.

But that isn't what happened here. In just under 4 years, the estate has been drawn down shockingly far.

It does seem like one of the principal beneficiaries of the co-conservators has been AH. As you say, it looks almost like a pay off. But a pay off for what?

I tend to see the family as comprising two small groups. One group is the co-conservators; the other group is JuM, JeM and AH (we'll leave the greatgrandkids out of this).

The group that would appear to be most likely to have guilty knowledge of some sort would be the latter. JeM was the last person known to have seen Bob, AH's behaviour towards Fontelle on her return to Placentia can only be termed thuggish. JuM's behaviour the day after Bob disappeared was hinky to the max.

So why would the co-conservators be paying off the other group? Would it be connected to the perceived need for a bodyguard?

Why would the co-conservators apparently be placating the other group rather than getting on the phone with PPD, hollering at them to DO SOMETHING? Has no one ever taught these women that you cannot negotiate with blackmailers or extortionists because you can never pay enough to make the threats go away?

From here, it looks like every single adult descendant of Bob Harrod has or had some sort of guilty knowledge.

 

[Cubby]

That has got to qualify as one of the most flattering apologies ever! <BLUSH>



I really wish I were a lawyer and understood these matters better. Anything I have to say is said from a layperson's point of view and may well be inaccurate or just plain wrong.

It seems to me that if the conservators were doing their job properly, the estate would still be worth roughly what it was worth the day Bob disappeared.

I know that in my state, banks and lawyers who act as conservators usually take a percentage of the worth of the estate as their compensation; therefore, they will not act as conservators for estates under a certain value (usually around $350K at least). Their fiduciary duty is to preserve the overall worth of the estate.

To me, Bob's estate should have been a no-brainer to run; put enough money together and it practically breeds itself.

But that isn't what happened here. In just under 4 years, the estate has been drawn down shockingly far.

It does seem like one of the principal beneficiaries of the co-conservators has been AH. As you say, it looks almost like a pay off. But a pay off for what?

I tend to see the family as comprising two small groups. One group is the co-conservators; the other group is JuM, JeM and AH (we'll leave the greatgrandkids out of this).

The group that would appear to be most likely to have guilty knowledge of some sort would be the latter. JeM was the last person known to have seen Bob, AH's behaviour towards Fontelle on her return to Placentia can only be termed thuggish. JuM's behaviour the day after Bob disappeared was hinky to the max.

So why would the co-conservators be paying off the other group? Would it be connected to the perceived need for a bodyguard?

Why would the co-conservators apparently be placating the other group rather than getting on the phone with PPD, hollering at them to DO SOMETHING? Has no one ever taught these women that you cannot negotiate with blackmailers or extortionists because you can never pay enough to make the threats go away?

From here, it looks like every single adult descendant of Bob Harrod has or had some sort of guilty knowledge.

:goodpost:

 

[Cubby]

To me, Bob's estate should have been a no-brainer to run; put enough money together and it practically breeds itself.

But that isn't what happened here. In just under 4 years, the estate has been drawn down shockingly far.

.

Respectfully snipped. We are approaching the 3rd anniversary of Bob's disappearance, so we're talking just under 3 years his assets have been drawn down shockingly far.

No one has access to these assets other than the co-conservators.

 

[Fairy1]

Respectfully, and maybe I'm interpreting your statement wrong, what single thing has Fontelle done wrong?

Nothing, really. I'm suspicious of everyone fighting over Bob's money and assets. If they had been married for a longer period of time, I wouldn't question it at all. But under the circumstances, it strikes me as very aggressive.

I've tried to imagine myself in Fontelle's position since Bob went missing. Living in California places her quite a distance from her own family and in the middle of the hornet's nest that is Bob's family. I just don't feel I'd be up for all of the drama at her age.

 

[Cubby]

Fontelle certainly didn't ask for any of the drama. From where I see it, if it weren't for Fontelle - no one would be attempting to hold Bob's daughters accountable for the handling of Bob's assets, and no one would be demanding answers surrounding what happened to Bob.

The amount of time they were married is irrelevant, imo. Bob was disappeared BECAUSE he remarried as a means to protect his assets by those who were lying in the wait for them.

Up thread it was mentioned the only thing not planned the day of Bob's disappearance was for the housekeeper to show up. I agree, however, I'll also add no one planned for Mrs. Harrod's tenacity to find the answers into what happened to her husband. Demanding accountability, is one avenue for Mrs. Harrod to seek those answers. As much as others would like to portray her interests otherwise.

 

[Fairy1]

Fontelle certainly didn't ask for any of the drama. From where I see it, if it weren't for Fontelle - no one would be attempting to hold Bob's daughters accountable for the handling of Bob's assets, and no one would be demanding answers surrounding what happened to Bob.

The amount of time they were married is irrelevant, imo. Bob was disappeared BECAUSE he remarried as a means to protect his assets by those who were lying in the wait for them.

Up thread it was mentioned the only thing not planned the day of Bob's disappearance was for the housekeeper to show up. I agree, however, I'll also add no one planned for Mrs. Harrod's tenacity to find the answers into what happened to her husband. Demanding accountability, is one avenue for Mrs. Harrod to seek those answers. As much as others would like to portray it otherwise.

To be honest, my feelings about Fontelle are heavily colored by situations that have occurred in my own family. It's difficult for me to be totally objective and it has been a barrier in my mind in relation to this case from day one!

 

[Cubby]

By others, I didn't mean you, Fairy'. I meant Bob's daughters. Hopefully, if we can get additional documentation, as was discussed upthread, things will become clearer.

LE stated in MSM, Mrs. Harrod was unaware of Bob's wealth prior to his disappearance. Bob's daughters have tried and tried to twist things. However, in order for that to be true, we'd have to have a long list of liars. Including journalists, including LE, including the housekeeper. All of these people would have to be in a conspiracy, against Bob's daughters, grandson and the sil. riiiight.

Time will reveal all.

 

[suzyq211]

Fontelle certainly didn't ask for any of the drama. From where I see it, if it weren't for Fontelle - no one would be attempting to hold Bob's daughters accountable for the handling of Bob's assets, and no one would be demanding answers surrounding what happened to Bob.

The amount of time they were married is irrelevant, imo. Bob was disappeared BECAUSE he remarried as a means to protect his assets by those who were lying in the wait for them.

Up thread it was mentioned the only thing not planned the day of Bob's disappearance was for the housekeeper to show up. I agree, however, I'll also add no one planned for Mrs. Harrod's tenacity to find the answers into what happened to her husband. Demanding accountability, is one avenue for Mrs. Harrod to seek those answers. As much as others would like to portray her interests otherwise.

I completely agree with you here, Cubby. Just think, if there was no Fontelle they would be running unchecked through Bob's entire estate. No one would be the wiser. Who else really cared? Certainly not any family members! This makes me nauseous.

 

[believe09]

Nothing, really. I'm suspicious of everyone fighting over Bob's money and assets. If they had been married for a longer period of time, I wouldn't question it at all. But under the circumstances, it strikes me as very aggressive.

I've tried to imagine myself in Fontelle's position since Bob went missing. Living in California places her quite a distance from her own family and in the middle of the hornet's nest that is Bob's family. I just don't feel I'd be up for all of the drama at her age.

I get what you are saying Fairy. Her husband is missing and she wants him back. She did not ask to be a trustee or a conservator. She is the only thing standing between those women and a free for all with Bob's assets. Because they have to account for their spending. Without her protest, they would have to account to Bob only. We know that wont happen.