Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

[dotr]

Whether Barry had the physical capability to carry Honey is debatable, but I don't view this as impossible by any means.

I haven't seen him described anywhere as particularly active physically, certainly no hints of athleticism. The opposite seems to be the case, an office athlete, who often didn't eat right, so deeply involved in work.

In an angry, exhilarated state, people do extraordinary things, or things others might view as beyond them.

(But...)

My point was he couldn't stage himself, depending on just what the nature of the staging was. What was the tipping point which led to the summation the couple were killed and staged?

I'll have to comb previous comments as to how they were found, but I'm not optimistic I'll have a clear picture of The Scene if I do.

Barry and Honey Sherman: Duelling investigations, high drama and still no answers - Macleans.ca
Dec 14 2018
"In short order, the media was filled with unattributed details about the deaths that pointed to professional killers — that the couple’s wrists had been bound; that Honey Sherman, believed to have arrived home first, struggled with her killer or killers and was found lying in a pool of her own blood. One detail widely circulated, that the Shermans’ winter coats had been pulled back behind them, thus immobilizing their arms, so clearly pointed to murder it was difficult to understand how anyone who had read Nancy Drew, let alone seasoned police officers, would have considered murder-suicide"
Oct 26 2018
Agent who found Shermans dead thought bodies were Halloween prank
"The man and his clients believed it was a Halloween stunt. But the agent for the Shermans — who had met them at the home — later called 911.

What authorities discovered was the couple, seated beside each other, their necks bound with belts attached to the one-metre high pool railing. There were marks on their wrists.

Initially, detectives believed Barry Sherman had murdered his wife then killed himself."
Jan 20 2018
Private investigators believe Toronto billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, source says | CBC News
"Private investigators also believe that Honey struggled with her killer or killers. She had cuts on her lip and nose, and was sitting in a pool of her own blood when she was discovered. However, there was comparatively little blood apparent on her upper-body clothing, suggesting that she had been face-down on the tile, bleeding, for some time before being bound to the handrail in an upright position, the source said."

Jan 19 2018
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star
"It’s double murder, not murder-suicide. Barry and Honey Sherman were killed in what looks like a professional, contract killing. That’s the conclusion of a variety of experts who have been hired by the family to probe the case.

Here’s the new information: There are markings on the Shermans’ wrists, an indication that at some point their hands were tied together, though no rope or other ties were found near the bodies. Toxicology tests on their bodies reveal no sign of drugs that would have contributed to their deaths. Men’s leather belts found around their necks were the cause of the “ligature compression” that killed them. A top forensic pathologist who did a second autopsy determined this was a double homicide, barring any new information that surfaces."
Private investigators to give update on deaths of Barry, Honey Sherman
Oct 24 2018
"Barry, 75, and Honey, 70, were found dead in their north Toronto mansion on Dec. 15, 2017. A real estate agent discovered the bodies in the basement pool area of the home, which was for sale. They were clothed, and “in a semi-seated position” on the pool deck, hanging from belts tied to a railing. The house showed no sign of forced entry."
Frank Forensics: Who Killed Barry and Honey Sherman? | Frank Magazine Ottawa

 

[William_60]

The belief that the scene was staged I believe is bases on the fact that Honey was killed elsewhere in the house and moved to the pool area. That part of it was staged for sure.

As for Barry killing himself, pretty easily really. On his knees he wraps the belt around his neck and the pool rail. Once he's done that, he slides his jacket halfway back, then it's simply a matter of assuming a sitting position.

Some here have said that there is no way his legs would be crossed or that his glasses wouldn't remain on his face as he would have been flailing around. I have posted articles in the past that disprove this, saying that the person doesn't actually choke to death initially, that the ligature constricts blood flow to the brain cause quick loss of consciousness and a somewhat peaceful death.

How "staging" has been defined is key.

I consider Honey being hit then being moved to the pool area as just one violent act on the path to her ultimate demise by another more-violent act.

She was killed at the pool area, was she not?

The belt around her neck is what killed her, and a belt killed Barry as well.

Or do I have re-reading to do?

 

[William_60]

Barry and Honey Sherman: Duelling investigations, high drama and still no answers - Macleans.ca
Dec 14 2018
"In short order, the media was filled with unattributed details about the deaths that pointed to professional killers — that the couple’s wrists had been bound; that Honey Sherman, believed to have arrived home first, struggled with her killer or killers and was found lying in a pool of her own blood. One detail widely circulated, that the Shermans’ winter coats had been pulled back behind them, thus immobilizing their arms, so clearly pointed to murder it was difficult to understand how anyone who had read Nancy Drew, let alone seasoned police officers, would have considered murder-suicide"
Oct 26 2018
Agent who found Shermans dead thought bodies were Halloween prank
"The man and his clients believed it was a Halloween stunt. But the agent for the Shermans — who had met them at the home — later called 911.

What authorities discovered was the couple, seated beside each other, their necks bound with belts attached to the one-metre high pool railing. There were marks on their wrists.

Initially, detectives believed Barry Sherman had murdered his wife then killed himself."
Jan 20 2018
Private investigators believe Toronto billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, source says | CBC News
"Private investigators also believe that Honey struggled with her killer or killers. She had cuts on her lip and nose, and was sitting in a pool of her own blood when she was discovered. However, there was comparatively little blood apparent on her upper-body clothing, suggesting that she had been face-down on the tile, bleeding, for some time before being bound to the handrail in an upright position, the source said."

Jan 19 2018
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star
"It’s double murder, not murder-suicide. Barry and Honey Sherman were killed in what looks like a professional, contract killing. That’s the conclusion of a variety of experts who have been hired by the family to probe the case.

Here’s the new information: There are markings on the Shermans’ wrists, an indication that at some point their hands were tied together, though no rope or other ties were found near the bodies. Toxicology tests on their bodies reveal no sign of drugs that would have contributed to their deaths. Men’s leather belts found around their necks were the cause of the “ligature compression” that killed them. A top forensic pathologist who did a second autopsy determined this was a double homicide, barring any new information that surfaces."
Private investigators to give update on deaths of Barry, Honey Sherman
Oct 24 2018
"Barry, 75, and Honey, 70, were found dead in their north Toronto mansion on Dec. 15, 2017. A real estate agent discovered the bodies in the basement pool area of the home, which was for sale. They were clothed, and “in a semi-seated position” on the pool deck, hanging from belts tied to a railing. The house showed no sign of forced entry."
Frank Forensics: Who Killed Barry and Honey Sherman? | Frank Magazine Ottawa

Thank You for posting these. Much appreciated, dotr!

 

[William_60]

Honey is found "lying in a pool of her own blood" or "in a semi-seated position"

Which is it? It cannot be both.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Honey is found "lying in a pool of her own blood" or "in a semi-seated position"

Which is it? It cannot be both.

Semi-seated according to TPS.

I’ve read she was slumped over (by the real estate agent?).

 

[dotr]

The belief that the scene was staged I believe is bases on the fact that Honey was killed elsewhere in the house and moved to the pool area. That part of it was staged for sure.

As for Barry killing himself, pretty easily really. On his knees he wraps the belt around his neck and the pool rail. Once he's done that, he slides his jacket halfway back, then it's simply a matter of assuming a sitting position.

Some here have said that there is no way his legs would be crossed or that his glasses wouldn't remain on his face as he would have been flailing around. I have posted articles in the past that disprove this, saying that the person doesn't actually choke to death initially, that the ligature constricts blood flow to the brain cause quick loss of consciousness and a somewhat peaceful death.

Rbbm. imo, speculation.
Feeling like the right thing to do is to post a suicide prevention link, do not want anyone to think about a " peaceful death" and how to do it.
There is a thread here about an unusual suicide case involving an older Jewish male who was found deceased on a mountain in the UK.
He had been living in Pakistan but returned to the UK apparently to commit suicide by strychnine, a very painful and unusual way to go these days .
It should have caused convulsions and thrashing ect. and maybe it did, yet he was found deceased with his arms at his side and his legs neatly together.fwiw.

Canada Suicide Prevention Service | Crisis Services Canada
En Fr
Get Help Now
Suicide prevention and support
CALL TOLL FREE
1.833.456.4566Available 24/7"

David Lytton - Wikipedia
The mystery of Saddleworth Moor: who was 'Neil Dovestone'?
“There are very, very few deaths by strychnine poisoning,” Coleman says. “It’s a terrible death.”
Mystery of Indian's Head: Police appeal to Pakistani doctors for help
"His body was discovered by a walker at 10.45am the next day lying face upwards with his head pointing towards the summit, his legs together and arms by his side."
Ws thread..
Identified! - UK - David Lytton, South Pennines, 'Neil Dovestone', 65-75, Dec'15

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Deleted

 

[andreww]

Semi-seated according to TPS.

I’ve read she was slumped over (by the real estate agent?).

I think the important part about the real-estate agent's comments is that they never mentioned anything about a pool of blood.

 

[andreww]

Semi-seated according to TPS.

I’ve read she was slumped over (by the real estate agent?).

Think about the fact that they were both hanging by their necks, legs stretched in front of them. I don't think there is any possible way for honey to be "slouched" or "lying".

 

[andreww]

How "staging" has been defined is key.

I consider Honey being hit then being moved to the pool area as just one violent act on the path to her ultimate demise by another more-violent act.

She was killed at the pool area, was she not?

The belt around her neck is what killed her, and a belt killed Barry as well.

Or do I have re-reading to do?

Again, TPS has said very little. In the early days there was a leak from an anonymous TPS officer saying there were two crime scenes. It is speculation only that Honey was killed elsewhere as that leak was never confirmed.

And the belt, or some other ligature, could have killed her elsewhere, then staged by the pool.

 

[MistyWaters]

<modsnip - quoted post removed>

Right, so now we have (unproven) allegations that insinuate JS is a cold, calculated, power seeking person, the sort of person just like his father, who wouldn’t think twice about destroying others (according to KW).

And so do you continue to believe the Sherman deaths were wrongfully determined a double homicide, that instead a m/s occurred? Suicide, to knowingly hand over his lifelong endeavours to directly benefit this (apparently) ungrateful, greedy son? Can you notice the conflict that poses to your theory?

 

[andreww]

<modsnip - quoted post removed>
I think you can say that about almost anyone including police chiefs, lawyers, politicians, and even the Pope. Bottom line, who are you going to believe about Barry Sherman? Frank D'Angelo? Every single person that I've seen interviewed about Barry were in his pocket for something. Lets here from some of the other people he sued or some of the people that used to work for him. I'm sure their view is a lot closer to Kerry's than Frank's.

 

[William_60]

I think you can say that about almost anyone including police chiefs, lawyers, politicians, and even the Pope. Bottom line, who are you going to believe about Barry Sherman? Frank D'Angelo? Every single person that I've seen interviewed about Barry were in his pocket for something. Lets here from some of the other people he sued or some of the people that used to work for him. I'm sure their view is a lot closer to Kerry's than Frank's.

You're reaching here.

Already caught lying and embellishing. Comments made through an admitted filter of hate.

Now...equated with anyone else, even with the Pope.

Afternoon chuckle to be had there.

 

[andreww]

You're reaching here.

Already caught lying and embellishing. Comments made through an admitted filter of hate.

Now...equated with anyone else, even with the Pope.

Afternoon chuckle to be had there.

Let's put aside the fact that lie detector tests are unreliable, the fact that it wasn't administered properly, and that Kerry passed a subsequent test. Kerry certainly has no love for Barry, but anybody who dismisses everything he says because of a TV lie detector test is a fool. Listen to what he says and decide for yourself if it makes sense. Despite what you may think about him, this man has probably more insight in to Barry Sherman than anybody on the planet.

 

[William_60]

Let's put aside the fact that lie detector tests are unreliable, the fact that it wasn't administered properly, and that Kerry passed a subsequent test. Kerry certainly has no love for Barry, but anybody who dismisses everything he says because of a TV lie detector test is a fool. Listen to what he says and decide for yourself if it makes sense. Despite what you may think about him, this man has probably more insight in to Barry Sherman than anybody on the planet.

I don't know of anyone dismissing everything he says because of a failed lie detector test.

Given his own admissions, though, and given his level of hate toward Barry Sherman, I think it's foolish to simply accept whatever he says at face value.

 

[MistyWaters]

Let's put aside the fact that lie detector tests are unreliable, the fact that it wasn't administered properly, and that Kerry passed a subsequent test. Kerry certainly has no love for Barry, but anybody who dismisses everything he says because of a TV lie detector test is a fool. Listen to what he says and decide for yourself if it makes sense. Despite what you may think about him, this man has probably more insight in to Barry Sherman than anybody on the planet.

Listen to what he says? Care to expand on that because we lack any “insight” into the character and intregity of who were’re supposed to be listening to (and presumably believing) other than his admitted past involving illegal drugs and his acknowledged financial reliance on Bank Sherman that turned bitter and hostile after it was cut off.

 

[Area52]

The belief that the scene was staged I believe is bases on the fact that Honey was killed elsewhere in the house and moved to the pool area. That part of it was staged for sure.

As for Barry killing himself, pretty easily really. On his knees he wraps the belt around his neck and the pool rail. Once he's done that, he slides his jacket halfway back, then it's simply a matter of assuming a sitting position.

Some here have said that there is no way his legs would be crossed or that his glasses wouldn't remain on his face as he would have been flailing around. I have posted articles in the past that disprove this, saying that the person doesn't actually choke to death initially, that the ligature constricts blood flow to the brain cause quick loss of consciousness and a somewhat peaceful death.

The belief that the scene was staged I believe is bases on the fact that Honey was killed elsewhere in the house and moved to the pool area. That part of it was staged for sure.

As for Barry killing himself, pretty easily really. On his knees he wraps the belt around his neck and the pool rail. Once he's done that, he slides his jacket halfway back, then it's simply a matter of assuming a sitting position.

Some here have said that there is no way his legs would be crossed or that his glasses wouldn't remain on his face as he would have been flailing around. I have posted articles in the past that disprove this, saying that the person doesn't actually choke to death initially, that the ligature constricts blood flow to the brain cause quick loss of consciousness and a somewhat peaceful death.

I find it almost unbelievable that being choked to death could be a somewhat peaceful way to die. That's probably one of the most asinine statements ever made. Our bodies are designed to react to different stimuli automatically. Coughing to clear your throat, blinking when something is in your eye, etc. an automatic response to choking is to free oneself from whatever is impeding the airway, and fight to continue to breathe. Unless of course you are already unconscious.....or dead. MOO

 

[andreww]

I find it almost unbelievable that being choked to death could be a somewhat peaceful way to die. That's probably one of the most asinine statements ever made. Our bodies are designed to react to different stimuli automatically. Coughing to clear your throat, blinking when something is in your eye, etc. an automatic response to choking is to free oneself from whatever is impeding the airway, and fight to continue to breathe. Unless of course you are already unconscious.....or dead. MOO

I had quoted an article by a suicide assistance group. The piece was written by someone who had failed in his attempt to hang himself. As I recall he said he lost consciousness within 15 or 20 seconds. But believe what you want, seems to be the norm around here.

 

[andreww]

Listen to what he says? Care to expand on that because we lack any “insight” into the character and intregity of who were’re supposed to be listening to (and presumably believing) other than his admitted past involving illegal drugs and his acknowledged financial reliance on Bank Sherman that turned bitter and hostile after it was cut off.

Again you astound me with your lack of facts. Barry never cut Kerry off. In fact everything he gave Kerry was a loan. Kerry ended it when he found out that Barry screwed him and his brothers royally and he decided to sue him.

 

[andreww]

Please elaborate, why would’ve someone killed him 10 years ago but not the past Dec 13th.

When Barry was in full control of Apotex I could see somebody maybe wanting to take him out. Why wait for someone to, for all intense purposes, retire? And ask yourself, has anybody actually benefitted from Barry's death, aside from his kids?