CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #24

[Lexiintoronto]

After reading this I guess the cops know who those people were and that they felt they had nothing to do with the murders.

My 2 cents—I’m going to keep my mind open.

I was reading the transcript to see if the officer may have had those two vehicles & four people in mind at any point. Is it possible the police identified the vehicles & people and still think they didn’t have a good reason to be there, but nothing to link them to the murders? Maybe only the WM did something suspicious enough to elevate themselves to being a suspect.(?)

O/T, but @Bobbi Pearl mentioned a break-in and that a forensic officer collected the cctv footage (iirc). Could that explain a delay in the Sherman case in getting the cctv files or tapes from that neighbour—a forensic officer had to collect them, not a general officer? The low-ranking officers could canvas the neighbourhood, but only a forensic officer could actually pick any cctv footage up(?)

 

[fadedglitter]

(Journalist) My question: I'm just wondering why…I believe this is the first time the term ‘suspect’ is being used in this investigation, and you said this person could potentially be eliminated….So why are they a ‘suspect’, versus a ‘person of interest’, could you elaborate?

(BP). Sure. So the that's a good question. So, this footage is not the only footage of this individual that we have. We have done an exhaustive video canvass of the whole area. And we have—based on the timing of when we understand when we believe the murders took place—we have this individual coming into a very defined area, around the Sherman's household, and remaining in that area for a period, and then leaving from that area.

So we have been unable to identify what purpose that person had to be within that defined area.

And therefore —and the timing is in line with our belief as to when this these murders took place. And so that is why we classify this individual as a suspect.

(…)

(Journalist) Yes, quite a unique gait that he has, the way he walks with that right foot picking it up. You mentioned there was other video. Why not release the other videos of the suspect?


(BP) The reason is that this is amongst the best images of this individual that we have. So we've sort of chosen the best one that has the greatest likelihood of somebody being able to identify this individual. So that's why we've chosen to release this one.


(Journalist) You mentioned that this individual was seen going into a defined area. What do you mean by that? That are they going on to the Sherman's property? Are they on public property walking down the street.. like… what do you mean by defined area? And like so? I mean, what makes that of interest?


(BP) Yeah, so. So in our exhaustive video canvas, we were able to get images from nearby: on either side, kind of, and around the Sherman household. This individual walks into that area—does not continue to walk through—but remains in that area that's not covered by video footage, and remains in there and then comes back out sometime later.

And that's how we've been able to sort of narrow this individual's location down.

(Journalist) Yeah, I mean, is there anything else to make you believe this person is a suspect other than a sort of go (out or on) camera view for a period of time?


(BP) Well, it's a it's a fairly defined area. So—and like I said before—we were able to eliminate pretty well every other person on the video footage that we've obtained.

And so we're left with a very glaring sort of unknown with this individual that requires an explanation if there's a legitimate one.


(Journalist) Why did it take four years to release this video?

(BP) So, as you can see, partly to do with…the sort of… poor quality of the image the investigative considerations were… that the cost to the investigation by releasing this early on would have outweighed the benefit of releasing it early on. So we undertook these investigative steps, exhaustive investigative steps, to identify this individual.

Now, having gotten to the point where we have not been able to do so—with these videos—this is now the prudent time to release this to the public and seek the public's assistance

(Journalist) (cross-talk between 2 reporters, I couldn’t hear clearly, garbled when one reporter did speak) You said (he) was in a defined area for a period of time around the time of the murders, is that correct? Are we talking 5 minutes or ten minutes or an hour, or a few hours? Can you give us an idea of how long (he) was loitering, or I guess hanging out, in that area?


(BP) So I'm not going to get into the exact timing of it, I would say…I mean…I can just generally answer that it is a very suspicious amount of time. It's in line with our belief as to when these murders took place. And so that's about as tight (of a time) as I can get you.

(Journalist) …and is there any video showing him leaving in a vehicle or riding in a vehicle. Do we have any idea of how he came to Old Colony Road and left?

(BP) So, I’m not going to get into that. I'm sorry. Thank you

Just bringing this back as with the passage of time the details of what the police told us may have faded from memory.

The police have said they have many videos with many people and vehicles on them. They can trace people travelling through the neighbourhood from one camera to another. Everyone has been excluded except the walking man. There’s an area tight to the Sherman property without any video coverage. The walking man goes into this area before the murders and walks away afterwards.

There will be many many people on any surveillance video. The police have excluded “pretty much every other person”. They are left with the walking man.

The police have told us already that they’ve excluded “pretty much every person” on the videos they have. They don’t need to say this again for every individual piece of footage.

 

[ldlager]

After reading this I guess the cops know who those people were and that they felt they had nothing to do with the murders.

BP states “We have been able to eliminate the vast majority of people captured on video. We are left with one individual whom we have been unable to identify.[…]”

He doesn’t state that they have eliminated ALL of the people captured on the videos. Only the majority. So I don’t know that we can necessarily assume from their statement that these individuals were not involved in the murders.

 

[ldlager]

Just bringing this back as with the passage of time the details of what the police told us may have faded from memory.

The police have said they have many videos with many people and vehicles on them. They can trace people travelling through the neighbourhood from one camera to another. Everyone has been excluded except the walking man. There’s an area tight to the Sherman property without any video coverage. The walking man goes into this area before the murders and walks away afterwards.

There will be many many people on any surveillance video. The police have excluded “pretty much every other person”. They are left with the walking man.

The police have told us already that they’ve excluded “pretty much every person” on the videos they have. They don’t need to say this again for every individual piece of footage.

As I read through all these quotes in recent days it strikes me that I have not seen any quote from police that refers to the person we call the “Walking Man” as a man. They always refer to this person as “the individual”. Is it possible that LE may possibly suspect that there is a chance that the WM could be a female?

 

[hexicon]

As I read through all these quotes in recent days it strikes me that I have not seen any quote from police that refers to the person we call the “Walking Man” as a man. They always refer to this person as “the individual”. Is it possible that LE may possibly suspect that there is a chance that the WM could be a female?

This is a quote from the article linked in #591:
"Price said video analysis shows the individual is 5'6" to 5'9" tall, but the person's sex, race and other identifiers cannot be determined."

My personal theory has been a relatively fit male who is wearing a backpack on the front underneath the coat--both to carry equipment and to disguise his silhouette by making himself look older and more portly.

 

[FromGermany1]

Interesting would be, if the Nightwalker was also one of the four individuals on the neighbor property hours before the murders. I think of the NW's gait .....

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

The police can lie to the public if they believe it will help the investigation, I wouldn't take anything they say as truth, also, most of the Canadian police forces and the RCMP are notorious for refusing to give statements, updates, etc to the press and public.

My opinion only but I wouldn't be shocked if these individuals had something to do with the murders

<modsnip: ChatGPt is not an approved source>

Curious why the PI team did not know of this video, if any family knew I would think we would have heard something over the years. Unless they too are aware of the 4 people and know it is not connected.

I go back to LE comment when NW video was released, they went through hundreds of hours of video and this was the only individual they could not confirm an identity.

IMO LE know who they are and have spoken to them.

That does not mean they are eliminated from any suspicions, just no need to talk to the public about it.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

If the people had been casing this house they would have seen a dark house with only a light over the garage door. They would have noticed no activity and no security cameras.

Cameras across the street may have been noticed but they may have assumed they only showed that home’s driveway and property, maybe part of the road.

They would have been looking for tire tracks or footprints in the snow. All these things indicate an unoccupied house.

So they park next to the Sherman’s’ instead of on the road as cars travelling on the road could have dash cams that could pick up their plates easier.

I guess the next thing is, did the cops notice footprints going between the Sherman home and the neighbour’s.

Agree with your thoughts, I then have more thoughts, like parking at a unoccupied home would stand out like a sore thumb to the neighborhood that was experiencing break ins.

And if you took a month tracking people, managed to murder 2 people and not leave a trace, but be sloppy and plan to park in line with a camera. It is so hard to decide we’re the culprit(s) pros and really smart and made a mistake or not so smart or well planned and got really lucky not getting caught.

 

[MerlinFalcon]

Agree with your thoughts, I then have more thoughts, like parking at a unoccupied home would stand out like a sore thumb to the neighborhood that was experiencing break ins.

And if you took a month tracking people, managed to murder 2 people and not leave a trace, but be sloppy and plan to park in line with a camera. It is so hard to decide we’re the culprit(s) pros and really smart and made a mistake or not so smart or well planned and got really lucky not getting caught.

I wonder if the house with the cameras and the house across the street had a lot of trees or bushes so that the view of the camera would have been obstructed. Also, going over there in the dark would really reduce the quality of the video at a distance so maybe it was a gamble they were ready to take.

 

[WINDSOR]

Assuming the video showed License plates of the two SUV's in the video, the TPS would have not had much trouble tracking down and identifying the four men. So for a minute, I am going to believe the TPS identified and cleared these individuals.

However, if the SUV's had plates that were not visible in the video or mot correct, (stolen, altered, switched) tracking down those individuals could be very difficult.

I still am wracking my brain as to why those two SUV's and four men were at the house in the first place, and what did they do for a hour.

One thought I had was, it might be a test of area security. By showing up rather brazenly and openly, the hit team leadership, can discover the level of neighborhood security, police patrols, private security patrols, Neighbourhood Watch teams and so on.

Since this 'scout team' was not discovered that night, the main operation was cleared to go. (I am sorry if this sounds like a spy novel theory, but it is not an uncommon technique in military intelligence.)


The TPS has implied at the Press conference that they know who everybody was, with the exception of the NW. It is about three years, I believe since the NW video has been released, and we do not know if they know anything more about the NW.

• The NW is a POI. Has the TPS identified the person yet?
• Are the men in the SUV POI? Has the TPS identified them.

 

[fadedglitter]

The TPS has implied at the Press conference that they know who everybody was, with the exception of the NW. It is about three years, I believe since the NW video has been released, and we do not know if they know anything more about the NW.

• The NW is a POI. Has the TPS identified the person yet?
• Are the men in the SUV POI? Has the TPS identified them.

The night walker is a SUSPECT.

We have no idea whether these four people are persons of interest, only that TPS did not ask the public for help to identify them.

 

[Calcano]

Agree with your thoughts, I then have more thoughts, like parking at a unoccupied home would stand out like a sore thumb to the neighborhood that was experiencing break ins.

And if you took a month tracking people, managed to murder 2 people and not leave a trace, but be sloppy and plan to park in line with a camera. It is so hard to decide we’re the culprit(s) pros and really smart and made a mistake or not so smart or well planned and got really lucky not getting caught.

To build off this, I wonder how blurred the lines are between professionals and non-professionals when it comes to hired killings in general anyway. Who really would be a professional? Is it likely they're already in the security/protection world and are approached by a trusted client to do very, very bad things like murder? Or are there actual teams/groups of people who exclusively commit contracted murders and nothing else? I wish I knew. My gut tells me the latter of the two is something that exists more in movies/fiction than anywhere else, but again I'm sadly a bit ignorant on the topic.

When I specifically think about Barry and Honey's terrible murders, I've always wondered if someone didn't assemble a few trusted employees from his or her own private security network to carry this out for a big payday; people who are already experienced in surveillance, monitoring and client/asset protection - maybe with military backgrounds - but not the "assassins" or practiced murderers we might conjure in our heads when thinking about a hired killer?

I'm still intrigued by Kevin Donovan's belief that the orchestrater of these murders was present at the home that night. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but it almost reads as if "they were present but did not physically commit the murders." Would be very interested to hear others' thoughts on that.

Barry and Honey showed signs of being restrained by items (zip-ties?) that were not left at the scene, so at the very least they were always planned to be restrained by whomever showed up there. Did something bad happen during a shakedown for money? Was the intent from the beginning to kill them? Was Barry arriving an unforeseen inconvenience for the murderer(s)? Part of the plan? So many questions but without any answers, of course. Hoping their loves ones and those invested in seeing justice for the Shermans have those answers and more some day!

 

[Charlot123]

i believe it was quite possible that the Shermans were killed by a hitman, whom was an EX Mossad agent.
We know how smart their guys are.
It shouldn’t be too hard for a prominent wealthy Jewish person in another country to seek out an ex Mossad agent.

The truth is, I don’t know how smart ex-Mossad men are. Except for fiction like “A little drummer girl”, I have zero knowledge about the life of a regular Mossad employee. I am not even sure if they’d prefer to simply retire, or work occasionally for their countries like “consultants”, or offer murder-for-hire services. The last is dangerous, risky, plus, they are not young. And, for an Israeli to kill a philanthropist, a contributor to a Jewish cause?

Ex-KGB men, I suspect, are also settled well.

This would leave us with the renegades, the criminal “bros”, they were a dime a dozen in the 90es but by now, they’d be either killed or legalized.

So I think one has to go to places like Brighton Beach and find some total scums who may have survived the 90es. They could probably do it if the money is good. They are better with guns but they can succeed. And…they are not Mossad. They have certain discipline, though.

But with them, anything is possible. Someone profiting or angry with Barry or with Holly to hire such a person, who knows?

 

[fadedglitter]

Honest question to those who think the people on this video are somehow connected to the murders: what new information would make you believe they aren’t?

 

[hexicon]

Honest question to those who think the people on this video are somehow connected to the murders: what new information would make you believe they aren’t?

I'm of two minds on this.

On the one hand, the more fictive part of me says that this crime was contracted out to two or three former military/intelligence types. In this scenario, these contractors are well-organized and have a high sense of self-preservation, so they would not be as sloppy as to incriminate themselves and their procurer by driving up to the house in two separate vehicles right before the crime. In fact, the crime was probably supposed to take place a few days earlier, when the procurer was indisputably out of the country, but the contractors could not find the right window or perhaps had to abort earlier attempts because the timing wasn't right.

On the other hand, based on what KD has hinted about the procurer being present at the murder, this might have been hastily scheduled during the small window when the procurer was back in the country but before Honey and then Barry would leave for Florida. In this scenario, the procurer either wanted to watch the event for sadistic reasons of his own, or was needed to enter the house or get something inside the house (e.g., my theory about getting cash from the house to pay the contractors). This hypothetical would have involved some last-minute re-arranging due to the Shermans' meeting being moved to the office. In this case, the procurers/contractors would have to be smart and effective in some ways (act committed with almost no evidence left) yet pretty stupid in others (driving up to house).

Based on my theories of the crime, I can't rule out the two SUVs being connected, so I'll keep an open mind.

The new information I would need to feel confident that those on the video are not connected s a statement from the police like that they made for the Thursday Visitor: We have identified these people and vehicles, we have talked to them, and we have determined that they are not connected.

(And even then I would still think there was a possibility the police were dissembling for investigative purposes.)

 

[MerlinFalcon]

Honest question to those who think the people on this video are somehow connected to the murders: what new information would make you believe they aren’t?

If the cops know who they are and they spoke to them and cleared them.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Sorry folks, at this time ChatGPT / AI are not WS approved sources due to glaring, provable inaccuracies that have been discovered in a couple of other threads.

 

[WINDSOR]

If the cops know who they are and they spoke to them and cleared them.

Are we assuming since the TPS has not asked for help in identifying the two SUV's and the four men, that TPS know who they are, spoke to them and have cleared them?
That is a big assumption.


I had previously proposed that the two SUV's arriving at the Sherman's neighbor's home could have been a feint, to discover the level of security in the area. On a certain level this sounds ridiculous. Why send two vehicles and four men when one car with one man would serve the same purpose?

Maybe four men were needed for some ancillary tasks, such as checking backyards for dogs, checking access and egress points and so on.


I still am trying to figure out what possible benign reason the two SUV's and the four men would have been at the house next door. Were they delivery guys, or tradesmen doing a job? Were they real estate people with clients? How about people distributing flyers or doing solicitations in the area?

Anybody got any ideas?

 

[J Sleuth]

Are we assuming since the TPS has not asked for help in identifying the two SUV's and the four men, that TPS know who they are, spoke to them and have cleared them?
That is a big assumption.


I had previously proposed that the two SUV's arriving at the Sherman's neighbor's home could have been a feint, to discover the level of security in the area. On a certain level this sounds ridiculous. Why send two vehicles and four men when one car with one man would serve the same purpose?

Maybe four men were needed for some ancillary tasks, such as checking backyards for dogs, checking access and egress points and so on.


I still am trying to figure out what possible benign reason the two SUV's and the four men would have been at the house next door. Were they delivery guys, or tradesmen doing a job? Were they real estate people with clients? How about people distributing flyers or doing solicitations in the area?

Anybody got any ideas?

I have a question. When I hear 2 SUVs, I envision Cadillac Escalades or something similar how ever, I had a small Mazda CX-5 and it was considered an SUV. Do we know more about the vehicles?

 

[hexicon]

Are we assuming since the TPS has not asked for help in identifying the two SUV's and the four men, that TPS know who they are, spoke to them and have cleared them?
That is a big assumption.


I had previously proposed that the two SUV's arriving at the Sherman's neighbor's home could have been a feint, to discover the level of security in the area. On a certain level this sounds ridiculous. Why send two vehicles and four men when one car with one man would serve the same purpose?

Maybe four men were needed for some ancillary tasks, such as checking backyards for dogs, checking access and egress points and so on.


I still am trying to figure out what possible benign reason the two SUV's and the four men would have been at the house next door. Were they delivery guys, or tradesmen doing a job? Were they real estate people with clients? How about people distributing flyers or doing solicitations in the area?

Anybody got any ideas?

I feel like if this were a well-planned professional* job, all of that recon would have been done days or even weeks earlier, during the daylight, with the conspirators posing as tradesmen, dog-walkers, utility workers, joggers, etc. They would have figured out security cameras, escape routes, hiding spots, etc. at that time.

So I feel like there are three options: The two SUVs and four men who showed up next door the evening of the murder are.
1. Completely unconnected or
2. The murder was not well-planned and the procurer/contractors were not particularly careful, they were just lucky
3. The murder was reasonably well-planned but had to be rushed due to the impending departure for Florida or the move of the meeting from the home to the office.

*"Professional" can have a lot of meanings. It could mean some low-life who was paid to do it. It could mean someone who, whether independent or connected to an organization, has some training (military or intelligence) in killing people and covering it up, or it could mean some highly fictive full-time ninja assassin.