Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[Zella]

The only thing I've read about LD's travel plans is his cousin said he was not initially going to go that far north but changed his mind and went. No word on how long he'd been up there or when he left home or when he was planning on being back.

Family of B.C. murder victim remembers Leonard Dyck as ‘gentle soul,’ family man

 

[otto]

You’re assuming that the couple were blissfuly unaware of highway law and perhaps that they assumed that Canada has a wall that keeps criminals out?

Seems to me that they found them themselves in an unexpected breakdown, but believed it an easy fix. By sleeping in their van they made a decision that was entirely reasonable. I assume they had every intention of dealing with the mechanical issues in the morning, during daylight. A terrible, random and tragic crime occurred that they were the victim of. No amount of knowledge about roadside rules and indeed even the knowledge of bad guys are out there would have led them to believe that they were in imminent danger, IMO anyways.

BC highway safety regulation requires disabled vehicles to be removed "forthwith." I am assuming that they were unaware of this, and that they were also unaware of restricted camping on highways and at pullouts.

They are not the first people to have a breakdown on the highway, so safety regulations are in place for both the stranded vehicle and other traffic.

 

[Iwondertoo]

All descriptions of them were that they were happy, relaxing in lawn chairs, snacking, waving and all was well.

That's one reason I'm curious where they stayed on July 13. Maybe they stayed on the side of the highway or at a rest stop. If so, I would expect them to be very relaxed about staying where they were - sensing no urgency to be at a campground or populated location. Maybe they didn't know about highway safety regulations and law.

JMO

My guess would be they stayed at a rest stop or pull out (probably there were other travelers stopped overnight there as well) or one of the campsites along the way. They were on a scenic trip to see northern B.C. so I can't imagine them staying at the side of a highway no matter how frugal they were.

I think it sometimes gets forgotten here that they wouldn't choose to camp at the side of the highway that night or probably any night, they broke down. No one would choose to just camp and sleep at the side of the highway when there are so many pull outs and campsites available with beautiful views and more safety.

Whether Lucas and Chynna knew about highway safety regulations and law here, it wouldn't matter. The vehicle was broke down. There was not much they could do about it till morning. Then they could wave down a passing vehicle and ask for help to call a tow truck or catch a ride into town for parts.

 

[srper2]

I agree. However, that does not change the fact that camping on the shoulder or at a highway pullout is unsafe and unlawful. It is considered unsafe for other traffic, particularly at dusk (reduced visibility), and because it is isolated (opportunistic crimes). That was the situation before the tourists were murdered in July. It is safety and crime prevention, not fear.

This still feels like the victim-blaming is continuing to brew here?

 

[otto]

OMG I've been wondering when they left. Thanks for this, do you have a link? Do you know when the Prof left?

They left the ranch on July 13, they stopped at the Pink Mountain Store for snacks, stopped at Fort Nelson for gas at 7:45PM and camped somewhere. On July 14, they were stranded on the side of the highway 20km South of Liard Hot Springs at 3:30PM. On the night of July 14/15 they were murdered. Bodies were reported to RCMP at 7:19AM July 15.

 

[SteveP]

I disagree. No one is suggesting that they willfully broke the law. The assumption is that they were unaware of Canadian law and highway safety regulation. The discussion is how to address this information gap. Should there be better information at park gates or borders? Would anything make a difference?

They were in the wrong place at the wrong time when the worst case scenario happened. They were isolated when 2 crime of opportunity teens drove by. RCMP were contacted at 4PM, so more people were concerned about the situation.

Respectfully, I do not believe that many here just assume that they were unaware of law and highway safety regulation. I think it is a non-issue. If your vehicle breaks down on the side of the highway, your awareness of law isn't moving the vehicle any farther down the road than ignorance of the law is moving it. It seems that by the time that they realized the problem was more than just a flooded engine, and a tow was going to be required, it probably was late enough that, if a tow truck would have even come the distance required to reach them at that hour, they very possibly would have already been dead by the time it arrived anyway. Hindsight is 20-20, and we all know that they would very likely still be fine if they had just towed the van soon after it broke down. In real time, at the time, I dare say many, if not most of us posting about this case, would have done exactly what they did. JMO

 

[otto]

I had read that they had finally realized it was a cracked block that was causing the flooding issue, and someone, one of the passers-by who lived in Liard, had made arrangements for it to be towed into Liard Hot Springs the next day. Finding that article again may take a while though.

The nearest tow truck I could find was Fort Nelson, nothing in Liard Hot Springs.

 

[Arizona 123]

On the camping issue...

Regarding the victims, L&C; to all accounts, their vehicle, not them, chose their location via ceasing to self-propel. We do not know for certain what was wrong with their vehicle. We have reports that they thought it was flooded, and it might have been, though I'd bet they had carburetor trouble in excess of that. So, at worst, they misdiagnosed their vehicle - and a good many mechanics have managed that.

From where they were stuck, it would be a very long tow. Very expensive, and from the sound of it, their financial circumstances would have made them wish to avoid, if possible, any such massive unexpected expenses. I can find no fault in them whatsoever. Only with benefit of hindsight can we say their actions should have been otherwise. They had no way of knowing that killers were headed their way.

As for the roadside camping issue itself, I've done it, sort of, quite a few times in remote areas of the US and, yes, BC as well. Generally, the cause is if I get a bit sleepy due to having overestimated my mileage capacity for the day (usually due to already having reservations and not quite getting there). I pull over, well off the road (a hundred feet or more), and grab an hour or two of sleep. I feel this is safer than pressing on tired. Other times, such as once in far north BC, I found myself unable to find a room vacancy, so I just went a couple of miles up a logging road and camped overnight (sleeping in my SUV, leaving no trace behind). I did similar, though at a truck stop (with permission) on the way back, same cause - no vacancies. I wasn't aware what I was doing was illegal, and I'll be honest, most of the times (grabbing a nap) I'd have done it anyway, as I'll always choose safety over law if there's a conflict.

 

[otto]

I was replying to the statement that said people stopped hitchhiking and staying at stops in this area of Australia, which was incorrect.

I think it was pingrouter (something like that) who posted that people stopped hitch hiking in Australia after the Belanglo State Forest murders. There are also a few stories about camper van murders in Australia - wasn't one a German couple where the woman hid in the bush for hours until she felt it was safe to come out?

 

[MistyWaters]

Pulling onto the shoulder is usually reserved for emergencies, pullouts for rest stop, campgrounds for overnight. Traffic is 140+ kph, passing vehicles would slow down if people were stopped on the side of the highway.

During my one and only trip along the Alaskan Highway I noticed many old gravel pits a short distance off the road, probably excavated during the original construction of the highway, which were very popular stopping spots for tourists in campers and motor homes. But I must admit, I didn’t notice vehicles parked overnight along the road at all. But that was about 10 years ago so perhaps things have changed.

However according to BC’s Rest Stop Map, rest stops are still very scarce along the Alaskan Highway although there’s several on Hwy 37, the Professor’s body found at one of them.
BC Rest Areas

 

[otto]

JMO

My guess would be they stayed at a rest stop or pull out (probably there were other travelers stopped overnight there as well) or one of the campsites along the way. They were on a scenic trip to see northern B.C. so I can't imagine them staying at the side of a highway no matter how frugal they were.

I think it sometimes gets forgotten here that they wouldn't choose to camp at the side of the highway that night or probably any night, they broke down. No one would choose to just camp and sleep at the side of the highway when there are so many pull outs and campsites available with beautiful views and more safety.

Whether Lucas and Chynna knew about highway safety regulations and law here, it wouldn't matter. The vehicle was broke down. There was not much they could do about it till morning. Then they could wave down a passing vehicle and ask for help to call a tow truck or catch a ride into town for parts.

It was 3:30 in the afternoon. They had choices to get a lift to Liard Hot Springs, call a tow truck in Fort Nelson, or stay where they were. Other drivers were concerned, several stopped and one called RCMP to report the vehicle at 4PM. For some reason, other drivers were concerned, but they were not. I can only assume that they were unaware.

 

[srper2]

I think it was pingrouter (something like that) who posted that people stopped hitch hiking in Australia after the Belanglo State Forest murders. There are also a few stories about camper van murders in Australia - wasn't one a German couple where the woman hid in the bush for hours until she felt it was safe to come out?

Yes, and I was replying to that post.

 

[otto]

Yes, and I was replying to that post.

Apologies. I must have missed the response. Were you confirming this, or were you saying that the murders did not change hitch hiking practice?

 

[SteveP]

It was 3:30 in the afternoon. They had choices to get a lift to Liard Hot Springs, call a tow truck in Fort Nelson, or stay where they were. Other drivers were concerned, several stopped and one called RCMP to report the vehicle at 4PM. For some reason, other drivers were concerned, but they were not. I can only assume that they were unaware.

Please refresh my memory...how far was Fort Nelson from where they were stranded?

 

[Jen-Knee]

The Canadian highway roadside pullout

View attachment 198827

B.C. Highway Cams

We have several of those types of pullouts. We also have these.
Highway Driving in BC: Take a Break and Rest Awhile! | TranBC

This page has a map where they all are and whether they can accommodate larger vehicles.
BC Rest Areas

 

[otto]

Please refresh my memory...how far was Fort Nelson from where they were stranded?

3:30 in the afternoon, van is kaput, Alaska vacation is a no-go
Liard Hot Springs: 20km, 30 minutes
Fort Nelson: 4 hours, tow truck
What to do?

One might flag down a ride to the hot springs, call a tow truck, relax for the night, and sort it out in the morning. Another would pull out the lawn chairs, relax and enjoy the view.

 

[MistyWaters]

Please refresh my memory...how far was Fort Nelson from where they were stranded?

Watson Lake, Yukon is slightly closer at about 3 hours away. But often the cost of after-hours towing is far more expensive and it’d also dependent if a tow truck driver would be immediately available for the 6 hour round trip there and back.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Yes, people should be aware, but I think you are promoting "fear", particularly of criminals. I think the risk of nature FAR outweighs that of criminals. I think the risk of criminals is quite low. I do think that we all underestimate the risk of nature far too much. So many people die from the elements of nature.

But to take this case and fan the flames of fear of the bogeyman is excessive in my mind.

Exactly, why even leave the house? Sad day when those very, very few bad apples make the public fear travelling and enjoying life. None of the victims deserved to die, they did nothing wrong, just good people living life to the full. The police recommend to pull over and sleep if you're tired, more people die on the roads from car accidents because of a tired driver than being shot by a stranger, so a van breaking down, the same thing, it's one of those annoying incidents that happens to millions of people, some wait it out, call roadside assistance, police don't go around chasing these people down for taking a break on the side of the road.

I live in high tourist area, there are often cars pulled to the side of the road for safety reasons, tiredness or it's broken down etc. The Police patrol this highway day and night because of speeding or sleep deprived drivers swerving on the road, they applaud those who pull over and rest. Lucas was safely off the road.

 

[otto]

Watson Lake, Yukon is slightly closer at about 3 hours away. But often the cost of after-hours towing is far more expensive and it’d also dependent if a tow truck driver would be immediately available for the 6 hour round trip there and back.

I looked for tow trucks. None in Liard Hot Springs, one in Fort Nelson. Did you find a tow truck in Watson Lake?

I'm pretty sure that night towing was not included, but at 3:30 in the afternoon it would not have been dark when picking up the vehicle at 7:30PM. Any kind of towing on the Alaska highway is expensive.

 

[otto]

Exactly, why even leave the house? Sad day when those very, very few bad apples make the public fear travelling and enjoying life. None of the victims deserved to die, they did nothing wrong, just good people living life to the full. The police recommend to pull over and sleep if you're tired, more people die on the roads from car accidents because of a tired driver than being shot by a stranger, so a van breaking down, the same thing, it's one of those annoying incidents that happens to millions of people, some wait it out, call roadside assistance, police don't go around chasing these people down for taking a break on the side of the road.

I live in high tourist area, there are often cars pulled to the side of the road for safety reasons, tiredness or it's broken down etc. The Police patrol this highway day and night because of speeding or sleep deprived drivers swerving the road, they applaud those who pull over and rest. Lucas was safely off the road.

BBM
That's the step that was missing: call roadside assistance directly or with assistance from drivers who stopped to help.