Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[scrappinkat]

At about 11:30 pm, Alandra Hull, Trevor Pierre’s boss, was returning to her work camp and saw a bearded man confronting the couple. They were standing next to the van and he was standing in the middle of the highway. His grey car was parked down the road facing south. She said he looked frustrated. She saw him walk towards the pair and said they looked bothered, but she got a bad feeling and didn’t stop. She later provided a statement and worked with a sketch artist to provide a composite.

I had read this early on too, but was a little surprised when the police statement was released along with the sketch that the vehicle was a Jeep, no body colour specified, with a black stripe and bull bar with lights. Very specific and certainly not a grey car.

Also surprised her name was put so out there. If there was a trial it could have jeopardized her ability to feel safe being a witness.

 

[scrappinkat]

Am I reading this correctly? A trucker phoned the RCMP around 5am to Report the LF/CD situation. But instead of sending officers out to check the RCMP enlisted the help of someone who was closer to the area and that ended up being Trevor Pierre the road worker.

If that’s the case that’s really messed up.

Since he was closer than police (4 hours away) he was called in to secure the scene.

 

[Moriarty]

Good morning from Alberta, folks. Ive been reading something for work and noticed a chapter that resonated with this thread and thought I’d share it with you all. It may not add to much here, but struck a chord with me...

I’m reading Explorations in forensic Psychology (2015) by Dr. Margo Watt of St. FX University in Halifax. I just noticed her last chapter was on youth who kill. I know KM and BS are technically adults...but just barely.

First off, 57% of youth committed homicide involve at least one accomplice.

Watt, cited an older 1979 study but then cites many more recent studies that have confirmed or built upon this work. In the original study, the researchers defined three separate groups or types of youth committed homicides. The first group is the one I found interesting: youth who commit homicide in the course of a robbery or for no apparent reason at all.

Some of the descriptors of these youth: a history of assaultive or threatening behaviour with often property offences, poor academic performance especially reading problems, considered antisocial by others and lacking empathy, attachment disruption with either a broken home or little to no psychological sustenance.

Most defining of all was an inability to cope with stress. These youth seem quiescent, cooperative, even charming when there were no frustrations. However, when there was environmental overstimulation and frustration, they became unpredictable and violent.

So...perhaps nothing new there but thought it was interesting in light of what we know about one of these guys.

Saturday morning reading at least.

 

[scrappinkat]

Does anyone have a decent photo of the van and ground markers from Fowler/Deese crime scene? I wanted to look about something specific.

 

[Zella]

Good morning from Alberta, folks. Ive been reading something for work and noticed a chapter that resonated with this thread and thought I’d share it with you all. It may not add to much here, but struck a chord with me...

I’m reading Explorations in forensic Psychology (2015) by Dr. Margo Watt of St. FX University in Halifax. I just noticed her last chapter was on youth who kill. I know KM and BS are technically adults...but just barely.

First off, 57% of youth committed homicide involve at least one accomplice.

Watt, cited an older 1979 study but then cites many more recent studies that have confirmed or built upon this work. In the original study, the researchers defined three separate groups or types of youth committed homicides. The first group is the one I found interesting: youth who commit homicide in the course of a robbery or for no apparent reason at all.

Some of the descriptors of these youth: a history of assaultive or threatening behaviour with often property offences, poor academic performance especially reading problems, considered antisocial by others and lacking empathy, attachment disruption with either a broken home or little to no psychological sustenance.

Most defining of all was an inability to cope with stress. These youth seem quiescent, cooperative, even charming when there were no frustrations. However, when there was environmental overstimulation and frustration, they became unpredictable and violent.

So...perhaps nothing new there but thought it was interesting in light of what we know about one of these guys.

Saturday morning reading at least.

That's very interesting--thanks for sharing!

I do get the impression that stress management was not a strong point for either of these two, especially Bryer.

It makes me wonder if things escalated with LF amd CD in the commission of a robbery and then they decided with LD to just go ahead and kill him to prevent complications.

 

[Gina20]

I have been wondering about similarities to other cases in Canada specifically. Certainly the Cody Legebokoff case seems similar.

B.C. town shocked by murder charges against former resident

Both involve young men from economically-depressed B.C. mill towns. Both involve young men from apparently financially secure, pillar-of-the-community families. Both involve a Leatherman muti-tool, although we don't what the one found near the burnt Rav4 in northern Manitoba was used for.

Legebokoff was not the youngest Canadian serial killer. Peter Woodcock was younger when he started killing. He was adopted, but raised in a well-off family in Toronto.

FYI, Legebokoff is a Doukhobor name.

I have thought about copycats, like the possibility of the New Zealand van murder this week. But now I wonder if KM and BS were themselves copycats. We don't know if they followed the lead of any number of terrible B.C. examples. Were they doing research?

 

[Gina20]

Dental records are often obtained, medical files (surgery scars, blood tests, etc), tattoos, any other identifying features followed up with DNA, etc. Visual identification alone has proven unreliable and especially in homicide cases, supporting verification would be sought, I’m sure.

It is worth noting that the medical examiner will not allow families to visually identify the deceased in some cases.

 

[SovereignSnake]

Wondering if the RCMP followed up on this guy:

Man sought in Alaska Highway murder investigation

Yeah, funny not a word heard about him after they started searching for BS and KM! Almost like they either had definitive evidence they weren't prepared to reveal, or developed tunnel vision!

I absolutely agree, the fact that this man has completely fallen off the radar really bothers me. My coworker and I just can't shake the feeling that this guy had something to do with this whole ordeal. I was discussing the case with some friends and a few new people I met while out last night and I showed people the composite sketch and the most recent photos of Texas Fugitive Derek Whisenand and they were convinced the composite sketch is indeed him. (Also nice to get some unbiased perspective from people who know nothing of this ongoing case.) I'm fairly convinced Derek was trying to get to Alaska after he crossed over into Manitoba and realized how hard it is to exist in Canada without a valid passport. He would want to get back to a US Territory. He traveling from Manitoba to Alaska could most certainly have put him on the Alaska Highway if this turned out to be his plan putting Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese right in his path. I know it could be a long shot but nothing about this case has been your run of the mill who done it. Until we get definitive evidence to the contrary this is not out of the question.

 

[scapa]

I have been wondering about similarities to other cases in Canada specifically. Certainly the Cody Legebokoff case seems similar.

B.C. town shocked by murder charges against former resident

Both involve young men from economically-depressed B.C. mill towns. Both involve young men from apparently financially secure, pillar-of-the-community families. Both involve a Leatherman muti-tool, although we don't what the one found near the burnt Rav4 in northern Manitoba was used for.

Legebokoff was not the youngest Canadian serial killer. Peter Woodcock was younger when he started killing. He was adopted, but raised in a well-off family in Toronto.

FYI, Legebokoff is a Doukhobor name.

I have thought about copycats, like the possibility of the New Zealand van murder this week. But now I wonder if KM and BS were themselves copycats. We don't know if they followed the lead of any number of terrible B.C. examples. Were they doing research?

It's an interesting connection but I think there are some important diffs between Legebokoff and BS at least, in that CL was not generally regarded as an introvert (roommates, athlete, partier, all IIRC), CL's working alone and from within a more traditional SK comfort zone and in the strong sadistic sexual component to CL's crimes -- although of course we don't have much info regarding any such motivation in this case. I also suspect that CL would have continued his rapes/murders until he was caught, whereas for KM/BS suicide may always have been the endgame.

I feel like CL is a much more traditional lust killer, while BS likely doesn't commit these crimes without a partner -- again IMO. From my time working in and around company towns in ON and in the UK, there are large numbers of alienated, disaffected male youth with little hope of labour or social advancement if they stay put. Few of these seem to commit murder, fortunately, although there was plenty of DV/barfights in most of the places I lived and worked as a student in such areas.

 

[Optics]

Exactly. The trucker's call would have been earlier, and I recall that it was closer to 5 AM (first light), but RCMP called a road worker who was closer than 4 hours (was he 1-2 hours away?) to check the situation before they even left the station. RCMP repeatedly mention 7:19 AM, but the trucker said something closer to 5AM. Why did RCMP again delay when they had a call about the same van at 4PM the day before?

I think the Fort Nelson RCMP detachment has some room for improvement. Not only did they drop the ball when they learned about the stranded couple at 4PM on July 14, they also dropped the ball when they received the first call about bodies next to the van at 5AM July 15. There is really no excuse for taking 4 hours from the time of the road worker call to respond to reports about bodies near the stranded van.

Until this past day I had no seen any articles on them being stranded being reported to the RCMP on July 14. Can someone source that for me? What I do recall is a woman and her husband stopping to help and hubby & Lucas both agreed it was a flooding. Those 2 went on home toward Frt Nelson. They reported to the RCMP after the bodies were found and police asked if anyone had had contact with them. That was 3:30pm July 14. There was another couple travelling in separate vehicles later, husband was ahead. The wife had other people and a loaded vehicle and did not stop but figured her husband did. They also reported after the couple was found and police issued a request for anyone who saw them or dash cams. I just don't understand though in relation to the RCMP why people really don't understand how remote that area is - I don't know how anyone could expect the RCMP to have someone within such close range along those roads. They patrol them but seriously an officer could leave Fort Nelson drive 4 hours then have to return to Ft Nelson another 4 hours.....just that is 8 hrs.

 

[Optics]

Around 3:40PM on July 14, Chynna stood up from her lawn chair and waved. One woman who witnessed this called RCMP at 4PM.

Again if someone could provide the source of reference that some woman called RCMP at 4pm on July 14 about a 'stranded' vehicle. I know the people who stopped at 3:30pm told RCMP the van was flooded, so who is the 4pm caller?

 

[LadyL]

Am I reading this correctly? A trucker phoned the RCMP around 5am to Report the LF/CD situation. But instead of sending officers out to check the RCMP enlisted the help of someone who was closer to the area and that ended up being Trevor Pierre the road worker.

If that’s the case that’s really messed up.

they didn't send him instead of officers
the officers were 4 hours away
they asked Pierre, who is a road worker but also a medic, to secure the scene until police could get there

this is covered in detail in earlier threads - the remoteness of the crime scene is hard for people to understand but it was literally four hours from the nearest RCMP

 

[Optics]

Since he was closer than police (4 hours away) he was called in to secure the scene.

Yes he was also a paramedic. He is authorized to secure the scene until the RCMP got there which was a 4 hour drive. It takes time to get there, the general public has to understand this. The RCMP weren't slacking off.

 

[Zella]

Truthfully, I was impressed with the speed of the RCMP response. They're 4 hours away from the crime scene and got there pretty close to 4 hours later. Sounds to me like they scrambled out the door as soon as they got word about the discovery of the bodies.

 

[Gina20]

It's an interesting connection but I think there are some important diffs between Legebokoff and BS at least, in that CL was not generally regarded as an introvert (roommates, athlete, partier, all IIRC), CL's working alone and from within a more traditional SK comfort zone and in the strong sadistic sexual component to CL's crimes -- although of course we don't have much info regarding any such motivation in this case. I also suspect that CL would have continued his rapes/murders until he was caught, whereas for KM/BS suicide may always have been the endgame.

I feel like CL is a much more traditional lust killer, while BS likely doesn't commit these crimes without a partner -- again IMO. From my time working in and around company towns in ON and in the UK, there are large numbers of alienated, disaffected male youth with little hope of labour or social advancement if they stay put. Few of these seem to commit murder, fortunately, although there was plenty of DV/barfights in most of the places I lived and worked as a student in such areas.

My interest is in the similarities, one in particular: the Leatherman multi-tool. I am curious to know who that Leatherman found near Gillam belonged to, and if it was used in these murders. Is this the link between all three murders? (In contrast, why the initial disinterest in picking it up, given that a Leatherman has been used as a murder weapon in a high-profile case in the past?)

Another similarity: two young men, approximately the same age, from affluent families living in mill towns that have seen better days, neither of whom has any apparent financial worries that would drive them to crime.

CL has a Doukhobor name. LD had a Mennonite name. BS had an interest in Russia, and claimed to be Russian, while his father tried to impress upon him that he was Ukrainian by ancestry.

Was there any research by KM and BS into famous B.C. murderers before they left home? Were they copycats in any way? Much of B.C. is remote, and CL murdered in remote areas, so this is another similarity, although not as strong as the Leatherman. Other B.C. murderers have taken advantage of the remoteness, too.

 

[cartman]

Thank you everyone for the clarification. I knew I wasn’t understanding correctly. After reading 16 threads the info starts to blend together!

 

[Gina20]

Truthfully, I was impressed with the speed of the RCMP response. They're 4 hours away from the crime scene and got there pretty close to 4 hours later. Sounds to me like they scrambled out the door as soon as they got word about the discovery of the bodies.

Some in B.C. have said the response was far quicker than it is in other cases.

Fast police response to highway deaths spurs discrimination complaint

 

[Zella]

Some in B.C. have said the response was far quicker than it is in other cases.

Fast police response to highway deaths spurs discrimination complaint

I'm not Canadian and don't really feel comfortable wading into debates about Canadian law enforcement--feel out of my element and as if it is not my place.

However, it seems like the comparison is between missing persons cases and murders? I know even here in America, a disappearance from an adult, even if families know it is out of character, is not always treated with the same sense of urgency as a homicide, simply because it is not a crime for an adult to disappear on their own accord.

I'm not saying that is right--valuable time is lost once it is determined the disappearance is suspicious--but for that reason, I don't think the situations are directly comparable.

When bodies are found, there's obviously something to investigate because something has clearly gone wrong. When someone goes missing, there's always the chance they may have left on their own accord or have gone temporarily out of contact voluntarily.

 

[scrappinkat]

Again if someone could provide the source of reference that some woman called RCMP at 4pm on July 14 about a 'stranded' vehicle. I know the people who stopped at 3:30pm told RCMP the van was flooded, so who is the 4pm caller?

I remember reading that claim but it was something I read in a couple different facebooks posts. Sorry I’m of no help with a proper link, I’m not sure that there was one???

 

[Gina20]

I'm not Canadian and don't really feel comfortable wading into debates about Canadian law enforcement--feel out of my element and as if it is not my place.

However, it seems like the comparison is between missing persons cases and murders? I know even here in America, a disappearance from an adult, even if families know it is out of character, is not always treated with the same sense of urgency as a homicide, simply because it is not a crime for an adult to disappear on their own accord.

I'm not saying that is right--valuable time is lost once it is determined the disappearance is suspicious--but for that reason, I don't think the situations are directly comparable.

When bodies are found, there's obviously something to investigate because something has clearly gone wrong. When someone goes missing, there's always the chance they may have left on their own accord or have gone temporarily out of contact voluntarily.

The post shows that while the debate rages here on WS about whether the response time was fast enough, some residents in northern B.C. have another perspective. These are remote areas.