Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[MistyWaters]

We discussed the linked article about the call to RCMP at the beginning of the discussion, and then a few days later we looked for the link because some had missed it. It was difficult to find, but it is somewhere in previous threads.

It's possible that some information has been changed since the original article - hard to know.

I wasn’t able to find it but I was interested in when this woman apparently called police - as she was driving by, when she got to wherever she was going or where was there cell coverage, if not immediately? Now I suspect she was misquoted by the media and she had recounted notifying police of her sighting after the discovery of the murders, not before, and that’s the reason for the edit.

 

[MistyWaters]

Here's the article and the link

"The bodies were found Monday on Highway 97 about 20 kilometres south of Liard Hot Springs. A blue 1986 Chevrolet van with Alberta licence plates was located at the scene, RCMP said.

Carrie Hawryluk of Fort Nelson, B.C., says she saw a young couple matching the description of Fowler and Deese by the side of the Alaska Highway on Sunday afternoon.

“We just saw their van on the side of the road and we saw a young couple, and the van hood was up like it had broken down and they were sitting in some lawn chairs in the ditch,” she said.

She said her husband, who had driven by about 20 minutes earlier, saw the pair and slowed down to approach, but “the couple didn’t really indicate that they were having problems.”

Hawryluk, who was travelling with her two aunts and a female cousin, said she hesitated to stop due to safety concerns but notified RCMP."​

Tourists found dead along B.C.’s Alaska Highway appear to have been shot: NSW police

Yes, thanks. So when did she notify RCMP? We don’t know that but after the discovery on the “suspicious deaths” the alert was put out for anyone driving down the Alaskan Highway having any information to contact the RCMP.

She was interviewed by B.C. CTV which makes no reference at all to calling police. Did she also speak to Global News or is this a c/p of the original CTV report or sourced from unverified FB. Nowhere in the media is the RCMP in Fort Nelson being questioned for failure to follow up on this report, which is another reason I think the woman was initially misquoted.

 

[scrappinkat]

I wasn’t able to find it but I was interested in when this woman apparently called police - as she was driving by, when she got to wherever she was going or where was there cell coverage, if not immediately? Now I suspect she was misquoted by the media and she had recounted notifying police of her sighting after the discovery of the murders, not before, and that’s the reason for the edit.

Yes, that sounds like a real possibility about when she notified the police.

Although I may be biased as I can’t imagine calling police over a vehicle stopped on the side of the road, especially when they seemed fine and didn’t indicate problems.

 

[scrappinkat]

I still wonder why AS mentioned the Russian question. Maybe it was relevant.

I think he was just talking, in a rambling kind of way since he was shocked and coming to terms about his child missing, possibly involved in something mind boggling.

 

[Miranda]

Where were the lawn chairs found?

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, that sounds like a real possibility about when she notified the police.

Although I may be biased as I can’t imagine calling police over a vehicle stopped on the side of the road, especially when they seemed fine and didn’t indicate problems.

I can’t imagine being alarmed enough to call the police either. Certainly if someone was standing on the edge of the road, arms flailing up and down but a couple sitting in lawn chairs, no.

One thing I’ve noticed in remote places, small towns too, is waving at strangers passing through is actually quite common, odd as it might seem. It’s an acknowledgement similar to a friendly hello when eye contact is made. When I first noticed this I thought maybe the local person mistook me for somebody they knew but no, it’s happened often enough I’ve come to realize it’s genuine, friendly courtesy. Of course in cities it’s much different and if one made it a practise of waving at strangers that’d create a huge fiasco for sure.

 

[MistyWaters]

Where were the lawn chairs found?

That information hasn’t been released.

 

[scrappinkat]

Where were the lawn chairs found?

I don’t think they were found anywhere. Maybe they were stored in the van under the bed area. (Don’t vans usually have a bench with storage under it and table that collapses to form a bed?)

 

[otto]

Yes, thanks. So when did she notify RCMP? We don’t know that but after the discovery on the “suspicious deaths” the alert was put out for anyone driving down the Alaskan Highway having any information to contact the RCMP.

She was interviewed by B.C. CTV which makes no reference at all to calling police. Did she also speak to Global News or is this a c/p of the original CTV report or sourced from unverified FB. Nowhere in the media is the RCMP in Fort Nelson being questioned for failure to follow up on this report, which is another reason I think the woman was initially misquoted.

Two separate news outlets, so two different bits of information. I understand that the woman contacted RCMP after passing the van on the highway on July 14.

This isn't the only discrepancy regarding calls to RCMP. RCMP stated that they were notified of the bodies at 7:19AM on July 15.

That cannot be true since the road worker was notified of the bodies at 6:45AM.His boss already knew, as did the trucker and the RCMP. What I think happened is that RCMP heard about the bodies, but did not head to the scene until 7:19AM, presumably after the road worker confirmed that there were bodies.

Originally posted by JudgeJudi:

"Trevor Pierre was one of the first people on scene. He had seen LF and CD when they were still alive, stopped on the side of the highway around 8 p.m. on Sunday, July 14.

Around 6: 45 a.m. the following morning Pierre’s boss called him with the grim news: a young couple had been found dead. Pierre, a medic, was asked to attend the scene and secure it until police arrived.

Pierre said when he arrived there was a trucker stopped at the site, visibly upset. He said the trucker had called RCMP and told him to make sure they had his name to follow up.

Pierre said he stayed on scene for three-and-a-half hours, waving traffic by and making sure no one stopped at the site before RCMP arrived."​

‘Still troubled by it’: Witness recounts securing the scene of northern B.C. double murder

 

[Zella]

I can’t imagine being alarmed enough to call the police either. Certainly if someone was standing on the edge of the road, arms flailing up and down but a couple sitting in lawn chairs, no.

One thing I’ve noticed in remote places, small towns too, is waving at strangers passing through is actually quite common, odd as it might seem. It’s an acknowledgement similar to a friendly hello when eye contact is made. When I first noticed this I thought maybe the local person mistook me for somebody they knew but no, it’s happened often enough I’ve come to realize it’s genuine, friendly courtesy. Of course in cities it’s much different and if one made it a practise of waving at strangers that’d create a huge fiasco for sure.

Yeah where I live, it is considered rude not to wave, even if you don't know the person!

CD was from NC, which is my home state, though I no longer live there. I think she was from Charlotte, which is a big city, but I can definitely see her thinking of waving as just being friendly since she seems to have been a really friendly person herself. Point being, people from the American South often don't think waving at strangers is weird.

 

[Seattle1]

I never believed Carrie Hawryluk of Fort Nelson, B.C. called RCMP prior to the news the couple murdered. I believe she phoned later when RCMP put out the request. I believe this is also when the mechanic and his wife phoned RCMP, and reported that they stopped and chatted with the couple.

ETA: I also don't think there were edits by media. I don't think there was ever a report that she called RCMP at 4pm as there's never been a link to support that statement.

 

[1987]

I don’t think they were found anywhere. Maybe they were stored in the van under the bed area. (Don’t vans usually have a bench with storage under it and table that collapses to form a bed?)

in the auction listing for this van it had two full back seats at the time of the auction. we do not know what If any modifications were made after that.

 

[Seattle1]

Wondering if the RCMP followed up on this guy:

Man sought in Alaska Highway murder investigation

I think time made him out to be another witness that saw the couple alive and offered to help. Perhaps he phoned RCMP and told them his account, and that ended the search for him. RCMP never mentioned him again -- just dropped their interest/sketch cold. (I understand they're allowed to do that without question or inquiry from public).

 

[1987]

1986 CHEV BONAVENTURE VAN
click the pictures and you can see the interior of the van

 

[MistyWaters]

Two separate news outlets, so two different bits of information. I understand that the woman contacted RCMP after passing the van on the highway on July 14.

This isn't the only discrepancy regarding calls to RCMP. RCMP stated that they were notified of the bodies at 7:19AM on July 15.

That cannot be true since the road worker was notified of the bodies at 6:45AM.His boss already knew, as did the trucker and the RCMP. What I think happened is that RCMP heard about the bodies, but did not head to the scene until 7:19AM, presumably after the road worker confirmed that there were bodies.

Originally posted by JudgeJudi:

"Trevor Pierre was one of the first people on scene. He had seen LF and CD when they were still alive, stopped on the side of the highway around 8 p.m. on Sunday, July 14.

Around 6: 45 a.m. the following morning Pierre’s boss called him with the grim news: a young couple had been found dead. Pierre, a medic, was asked to attend the scene and secure it until police arrived.

Pierre said when he arrived there was a trucker stopped at the site, visibly upset. He said the trucker had called RCMP and told him to make sure they had his name to follow up.

Pierre said he stayed on scene for three-and-a-half hours, waving traffic by and making sure no one stopped at the site before RCMP arrived."​

‘Still troubled by it’: Witness recounts securing the scene of northern B.C. double murder

In an early RCMP press release from July 16th, the 7:19am time is mentioned, which has been repeated many times since. Indeed that doesn’t support the medic’s “approximately 6:45am” but his media interview alone is not sufficient proof the RCMP’s time is incorrect. RCMP call logs, the truckers cellphone call, the call to the medics boss, then the call to Pierre.....the timeline is there if response time is bring questioned other than on WS. Also the trucker, who called police and then waited at the scene, he has the answer but he’s not spoken out. Lastly, why doesn’t the media speak with Pierre a second time if contradictory reported details matter, as by now he’s able to produce his call logs. Maybe his “approximately” didn’t mean exactly but IMO 7:19am seems quite precise.

“On Monday July 15 2019, at approximately 7:19 AM Northern Rockies front line officers were called to an area on highway 97 approximately 20 kilometers south of Liard Hot Springs...”
RCMP in British Columbia - Police Investigate Suspicious Deaths

 

[Seattle1]

in the auction listing for this van it had two full back seats at the time of the auction. we do not know what If any modifications were made after that.

Early on Chynna's mom spoke about the modifications Lucas made -- turning the van into their camping mobile. Don't know all the details except modifications were made before the trip.

 

[Kubirai]

I’m sorry. But I don’t think we know what KM and BS’s intention was regarding the murder of Lucas and Chynna; I don’t think anyone knows at this point. Also, maybe they did want Lucas’ van, but maybe the engine still wouldn’t start.
MOO

If they only wanted the van, and Lucas explained it doesn't work, they would have left them alone? Same for Leonard Dyck? He just needed to give them the key, to stay alive?

I think they killed first, and grabbed stuff later. They stopped only because they were on the run.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Guess who's back...back again....

Anyway, catching up:

This is an interesting read.

Calvin White: Like many teens, Kam and Bryer were lost — and we should have noticed

I totally agree with this article. It seems like most of the people who work with young people, on this thread and elsewhere, have a similar view. The whole thing is just so sad.

I don't disagree with the sentiment that the two needed help and intervention as do many, many other teens and young people. I guess what my issue with the sympathy that these two are generating is that other young people in Canada aren't always offered the same.

Tina Fontaine, 15, was criminalized by Globe and Mail headlines and her bio family was heavily criticized by the public. I live in Winnipeg and heard firsthand the vile remarks. Winnipeg wasn't named Canada's most racist city for no reason.

Coulton Boushie at 22 wasn't much older than BS and KM wasn't portrayed sympathetically in the media.

Omar Khadr, who was 15 when he was detained, was demonized and portrayed as a terrorist mastermind even though he had been brainwashed and abused by his father since early childhood and was the only child soldier to be prosecuted by a military tribunal.

I agree. The causes of and solutions to youth violence are pretty much the same, regardless of demographics. There's a reason why I said this case reminds me of The Wire. Unfortunately we still have subconscious and not so subconscious systemic biases as a society. That doesn't help anyone.

This is an interesting perspective from someone who saw teenager’s issues first hand as a high school counselor.

As a follow-on, this news article describes the work of forensic psychologists / behavioral analysts to identify possible red flags that would identify mass shooters and help target interventions (which I think might have some applicability to these suspects/spree killers). As the article states, the next practical issue, assuming someone identifies red flags, is the lack of reporting mechanisms and a legal basis for outsiders to intervene. I think this research/discussion is a step in a helpful direction.

“With funding from the Secret Service and the National Institute of Justice, they studied and interviewed an extensive list of notorious assassins and in 1997 published research that identified patterns of behavior and thought that were precursors to actual attacks.

They found the red flags, including preoccupation with violence or mass attacks, anger related to a history of loss and failure, expressed need for attention or notoriety and a history of menacing behavior.”

From https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/15/opinions/warning-signs-potential-mass-shootings-opinion-spodak/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

This sounds pretty spot on. Unfortunately the CDC has been barred from doing studies on gun violence for the past 20+ years...imagine how much further along we would be otherwise.

Personally I don’t agree with them being lovers. I think it’s more like brothers, bonded more than most can understand. Through childhood experiences that saw one experiencing some kind of abuse and the other one seeing it, most likely not feeling able to tell anyone and growing into a role of brother and protector. I believe its a bond that goes deeper than lovers.

I agree with @scrappinkat that there seems to have been a sibling bond between the 2 of them. KM was older and had a younger sibling. (That's been mentioned in MSM now: Hometown of Canadian Teenage Murder Suspects Grapples With Infamy). In my experience, people who are already an older sibling are more likely to transfer that aspect to other relationships, including friendships. Combine that with Bryer's dysfunctional homelife, and I think it makes a lot of sense that Kam would feel protective of Bryer and that Bryer would look up to Kam.

Totally agree with you guys. I think instead of the "dominant leader and submissive follower" relationship that was mentioned earlier, it was more of an older/younger brother thing and probably had been for many years for the reasons you stated. Kam was probably the more calm and protective one. Bryer was probably more of the "wild card" with lots of ideas. Overall their escape sounds exactly like it was devised by someone who wishes video games were real and wants to form a militia in the woods, don't you think? I think overall though, all the decisions and actions were a mutual decision, and neither of them brainwashed or forced the other.

That's also why they never abandoned each other or threw each other under the bus (ie. pinning the crimes on each other), and they died together. They saw each other as family. I do think their bond was much deeper than any other killing pair I've heard of. All JMO of course.

As far as there being no mention of girlfriends, I don't know that that's so strange. Lots of teens these days don't date, plus these two may have given off creepy vibes to girls. Bryer certainly did, maybe Kam did as well?

I don't think it's that strange...a lot of people I know, especially the "nerdy" ones, didn't date until well into college.

I ask because I started out thinking they were a very clear-cut example of leader and follower, but now I find myself second-guessing that and wondering if they had some sort of oddball team dynamic. Or maybe they switched who was leader and follower. It's hard to get a read on either of these guys.

You can say that again. I feel like Kam is the huge "black box" right now and if we knew more about him, we could figure out the whole thing.

Yes, I believe so. I think the sticking point was the arbitrariness of the 'cooling off' period. I'd have to go back and find it all again, but I think the FBI dropped the spree killer designation and re-defined serial killer as the murder of two or more victims by the same offender or offenders at different times.

I don't know if I agree with their decision to do that. IMO there's a huge difference in motivations between someone like the Green River Killer and these guys.

I wonder if BS and KM found participating in the world of games like Rust allowed them to succeed in ways they struggled with in the real world?

In my efforts to try to understand this game world a bit better, I came across this article from wired.com May 2014:
Why Online Games Make Players Act Like Psychopaths

It describes playing the online game Dayz as well as Rust. I found it an interesting read and thought others might find it interesting as well.

MOO - but I could picture a conversation between BS and KM after yet another "sucky" thing happened in their real world lives. One of them says, "Why can't real life be more like Rust?"

MOO

This was a great read. I'll be using it in class soon.

The part that stood out to me was the idea that these two games (one of them Rust) assumes that the world is filled with crazy, psychopathic people. Evil and danger are the norm. To a child, then adolescent, then young adult who is trying to figure the world out, this is a really different worldview. Different, anyway, from what many of us grew up with.

As an older person who reads way too much true crime and has been involved in far too many forensic investigations, it's natural that I have lost my youthful innocence and am a little paranoid. Lots of police are in a similar position. But even so, I'm only a little paranoid. I don't think most people I run into are evil.

To think that some teens are now in a world where everyone is a threat, where everyone is a psychopath, is very sad. I think almost all the young mass shooters fell into this worldview. Paranoia becomes normal, in that view. If a parent or other person in a kid's life is paranoid, it must be really hard to shake off the notion that the world is generally evil and cruel, to be guarded against and even exploded or shot at.

Great perspective from both of you guys! Controversial but I definitely think it was a contributing factor. As I said their plan sounds exactly like it was devised by someone who wishes video games were real and wants to start a militia in the woods. I agree that these games teach values that are maladaptive in the real world to say the least.

I can see them growing up together, growing delusional together, bouncing increasingly dramatic ideas off each other, etc...

Totally agree and I think there was definitely a folie a deux aspect to it even if they weren't completely delusional.

Hi all

I haven't posted before. This obviously is bothering so many people as to motive including me!

I think these 2 guys saw an abandoned van on the side of highway at night.
They decided to loot it. I doubt it occurred to them that anyone was in the van.

I don't think they meant to go on mission but they did have gun or guns I think. Doubt Lucas had one but possible.

The couple were probably sleeping.
The pair opened side or front door.
Lucas woke up and came to door without shoes.
Bryer and Kam were surprised but had a gun and decided to threaten robbery. Lucas fought back. They shot him in abdomen as angle upwards from road fits. Chynna heard all woke up tried to put on shoe at back of camper. The 2 entered van saw her and shot multiple times as freaked out and not experienced with real guns which blew out back window as well as her. Escalation. Botched robbery.

Rcmp will be able to determine this from van inspection. Surely they can find out where guns came from. They simply have no obligation to release these details until they have done every angle analysis.

After the shootings there was likely debate between 2 of them which led the pair to drag couple out of van onto side of road. Likely thinking they would drive van away. Van didn't start. I doubt they were posed. Likely dragged by one arm overone of the pair's shoulder and bodies rolled that way.

They the pair split scene taking as many bits of identification as possible. Missed her passport and left most of couples belongings. Likely nighttime.

The pair then spent 3 days somewhere freaking out and plotting how to get out of this meanwhile listening to all news on radio.

Drove north and west and then south to dease lake (evasive action). Opportunistically they found another poor guy (Len)at side of road. Opportunity to dispose of evidence of their car and take another one. Hey they had already killed people so why not and had 3 days of desperate rationalization talks on board. They were desperate to flee and try to evade capture.

The pair did this deed and headed east. Whether they went back up and passed original crime scene or went south noone knows.

I doubt they thought about possibility of being caught on camera at coop store in Saskatchewan. But likely heard about this on radio after which they were named as suspects.


They continued to drive east and north.
Unfortunately they didn't understand that past Gillam 280 highway (which would have led them west and then south first before going east into Ontario) they took 290. This road ends at Bush.
They ran out of gas.

Knowing they couldn't go back they decided to take their chances in Bush hoping to cross river or something.
They probably burned car to get rid of evidence or more likely in hopes that people would think they got another car and split.

Once in deep Bush they likely soon learned that survival in bc and west coast was really easy compared to Manitoba. West coast has nice tall trees cedar paths and no bugs.
Maybe or not they tried to cross river in boat and failed.
Elected to then kill themselves as they saw no way out.
All of this is just my opinion.

I don't think anything was premeditated here but certainly actions of a desperate pair who thought they were smart and thought they had no other way.
They certainly were polite to guy getting them out of ditch. They didn't feel the need to kill him. He was helping them. Polite and saying sorry to the patrol who waived them over for alcohol checks.
Sad all around.
I am not defending these men. I just think this is plausible.
Looking forward to replies.

I totally agree and I'm also thinking it was something like this. Looking at their bizarre actions and how panicked they were, I don't get the sense they set out planning to do this. As I said a few days ago, I do think they left Port Alberni in a bad emotional state, depressed and angry, with no clear plan for their destination and just wanting to get as far away from their hometown and families as possible (therefore the lying to their families, taking guns, etc.) I think in an unfamiliar remote area far away from any semblance of a support system, the sort of "folie a deux" aspect of their friendship got the best of them and they both spiraled out of control, then by the time they snapped out of it and realized what they had done, it was too late. And they were too cowardly and maybe even ashamed to turn themselves in.

The first group is the one I found interesting: youth who commit homicide in the course of a robbery or for no apparent reason at all.

Some of the descriptors of these youth: a history of assaultive or threatening behaviour with often property offences, poor academic performance especially reading problems, considered antisocial by others and lacking empathy, attachment disruption with either a broken home or little to no psychological sustenance.

Most defining of all was an inability to cope with stress. These youth seem quiescent, cooperative, even charming when there were no frustrations. However, when there was environmental overstimulation and frustration, they became unpredictable and violent.

That's very interesting--thanks for sharing!

I do get the impression that stress management was not a strong point for either of these two, especially Bryer.

It makes me wonder if things escalated with LF amd CD in the commission of a robbery and then they decided with LD to just go ahead and kill him to prevent complications.

This sounds totally spot on. That's why I think that whatever happened, it came from a place of stress, like emotional overwhelm without healthy coping mechanisms. That drove them to get into the emotional state where they decided to target Lucas and Chynna. And if it was a robbery gone wrong, that also caused them to panic and end up committing murder. JMO.

Seems that the internet is often where lonely young white men go to become radicalized and lethal. Case in point would be that most of the mass murders in the US lately have been committed by young white men like Bryer and Kam who are fascinated by the Neo Nazi subculture acted out on gaming sites, and reinforced in white supremacist chatrooms on sites such as 8Chan.

I don't know how much neo-Nazism played a role in this crime, but I recommend everyone to watch the Frontline episode Documenting Hate: New American Nazis...very informative and scary (you can watch it for free online).

I feel that disenfranchised young men the world over are vulnerable to recruitment from various groups. Inner city gangs that prey mainly on poor young men and boys, white supremacist groups, or terrorist groups. It's a terrible blight on the world.

Absolutely. All of this hate has the same roots, psychologically speaking. It's the young people who are "lost" socially, economically, etc. that end up in it. It's very sad and it destroys so many lives.

I think she was from Charlotte, which is a big city, but I can definitely see her thinking of waving as just being friendly since she seems to have been a really friendly person herself.

I'm from NY/NJ where nobody waves ever, but I was always taught to say "hi" or wave to people who you pass by when in a remote area, like on a hiking trail or something, so they remember you in case anything happens to you.

 

[scrappinkat]

Interesting article, was written early this year.

Serial killers hunting large swaths of Canada: criminologist - APTN News

 

[Zella]

Guess who's back...back again....

I'm from NY/NJ where nobody waves ever, but I was always taught to say "hi" or wave to people who you pass by when in a remote area, like on a hiking trail or something, so they remember you in case anything happens to you.

SBM

Good to see you again!

I had to chuckle about the waving when hiking so that people will remember you. I don't hike, so that never would have occurred to me, though I do sometimes wonder during the course of my day if I'm leaving enough of a paper/digital trail for LE to follow me if I disappeared. (Too much true crime for me!)

I'm wondering if CD only waved at the one woman or if she waved at multiple people. That might be a good way to determine if she was just waving to be friendly or if she was waving because she was actually trying to flag someone down.