Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[NJSleuth91]

BBM

I couldn't help but chuckle on that part. There does seem to have been a heavy amount of panic-induced lack of thinking with these two. But I really can't get a read on either one of them, no matter how much I try. Maybe they did put a lot of thought into it, but they were just not great at decisions.

Yeah I think that's where a lot of the cognitive dissonance comes in. I think the majority of people who post on here are probably very intelligent. So we are thinking of their decisions in the context of what we would do, as intelligent people. But there is significant evidence to suggest they were both dumb as a box of rocks, and of course anxiety makes you dumber (anxiety and murder: a losing combination). Plus if drugs actually WERE involved, which I still suspect they were, that would take the collective brainpower down even more.

 

[Zella]

I also wonder about their decision making process (I find it to be a bit of a misnomer to even call it that, considering how completely illogical their decisions were), if they argued over any of their decisions or had to talk each other into things, how much they trusted each other's judgment, etc.

SBM

This intrigues me, too. I get the impression they were a united front, for the most part, but I can't imagine them never once bickering at any point during this murder spree. If Bryer was nervous about driving, I could see him maybe not wanting to do it, and Kam being like, "Seriously? It's just up the road" But then again, the witness who pulled them out of the mud said that, though Bryer was freaking out, he was "doing all the work"--though what all the work would be in the situation where Kam is operating the vehicle being pulled out of the mud is beyond me--so maybe he volunteered for it and didn't have any qualms about it whatsoever.

I'm wondering if once the report is released if any of their decisions will make more sense or not.

 

[Zella]

Plus if drugs actually WERE involved, which I still suspect they were, that would take the collective brainpower down even more.

SBM

I can't decide on whether or not they were under the influence, but if they were, it would go a long way toward explaining their bad decisions.

I suspect some of it, too, is them being teenagers who'd never left home. Living on your own and having some life experience adds a lot of common sense that I suspect these two didn't have and never really needed in their day-to-day lives.

 

[JudgeJudi]

There are more of those orange markers in the other shot, the one that shows the white sheet. 9 in all.

My guess, based on size and distribution, is they are covering spent cartridges.

I initially thought that too, but 9 is a huge number of cartridges, so I don't quite know what to make of them now. I think the lone orange marker closest to the road would be the most likely one to be a cartridge, but the others ... I hope not.

 

[Arizona 123]

Yeah I think that's where a lot of the cognitive dissonance comes in. I think the majority of people who post on here are probably very intelligent. So we are thinking of their decisions in the context of what we would do, as intelligent people. But there is significant evidence to suggest they were both dumb as a box of rocks, and of course anxiety makes you dumber (anxiety and murder: a losing combination). Plus if drugs actually WERE involved, which I still suspect they were, that would take the collective brainpower down even more.

So, we're basically talking homicidal turnips here. That actually fits rather well with things like getting stuck in the mud inside a town, and heading down a dead-end highway (literally, in their case).

SBM

This intrigues me, too. I get the impression they were a united front, for the most part, but I can't imagine them never once bickering at any point during this murder spree. If Bryer was nervous about driving, I could see him maybe not wanting to do it, and Kam being like, "Seriously? It's just up the road" But then again, the witness who pulled them out of the mud said that, though Bryer was freaking out, he was "doing all the work"--though what all the work would be in the situation where Kam is operating the vehicle being pulled out of the mud is beyond me--so maybe he volunteered for it and didn't have any qualms about it whatsoever.

I'm wondering if once the report is released if any of their decisions will make more sense or not.

If they both drove after murdering the professor, I'm betting B drive the truck, as it's be a bit easier than a new and unfamiliar vehicle. I also think a truck of that age was probably column-shift automatic. So, as a theory on why they ditched it so close; what if he put it in 2nd gear instead of drive? He'd be rather slow, probably panicky, maybe blew the horn to get K to pull over...

 

[MistyWaters]

Mystery man could hold key to solving murder of Australian man and girlfriend in Canada

9news from Australia -

On the link above,after the first video, then a pic, the next video titled “Australian man and his girlfriend found dead on remote Canadian highway” features an Australian reporter apparently standing at the actual location where the van was parked. Aside from the wide gravel shoulder, I notice there’s no centre lines painted on the road, probably due to ongoing roadwork.

Theres also a brief clip of interview of the roadworker is in the first video “hunt for highway killer”, about halfway through. She demonstrates the mannerisms of the mystery man, standing, arms extended outward, palms facing upward. Unusual that is, as typically that’s not considered a threatening, aggressive stance.

 

[NJSleuth91]

SBM

This intrigues me, too. I get the impression they were a united front, for the most part, but I can't imagine them never once bickering at any point during this murder spree. If Bryer was nervous about driving, I could see him maybe not wanting to do it, and Kam being like, "Seriously? It's just up the road" But then again, the witness who pulled them out of the mud said that, though Bryer was freaking out, he was "doing all the work"--though what all the work would be in the situation where Kam is operating the vehicle being pulled out of the mud is beyond me--so maybe he volunteered for it and didn't have any qualms about it whatsoever.

I imagine there were a lot of arguments. Two panicky, emotionally disturbed teenagers with rage issues? We can bet on it. Especially considering at some point regret likely must have set in, and blame along with that. I can imagine especially that the process leading up to their decision to commit suicide was filled with screaming, crying, etc. But that being said, I think it was probably one of those situations where even if the arguments got really bad, they still knew they would be there for each other.

That quote was confusingly worded in the article. I thought what it meant is he thought Bryer did all the work in the murders, ie. pulling the trigger. Well I guess not judging by the discussion above about Prof Dyck's murder scene

I'm wondering if once the report is released if any of their decisions will make more sense or not.

Spoiler alert: probably not.

 

[srper2]

It would make sense to me that they would backtrack. Burn the truck south of the body if heading north, or visa versa. It might also explain why they burned it so close; panicking because the body was on show and they'd need to drive back past it.

On the other hand, not much these two did makes much rational sense from any perspective, so I'm probably wrong to assume there was any thought.




My hunch, given the locations of the cones relative to the white sheet, is two shooters.

DBM

 

[JudgeJudi]

I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam, apologies if repeating a topic...

Whether or not the guy in the gas station video looks like Kam. I find the similarities very uncanny (left hand kinda in pocket that doesn't move, skin tone/hair tone, black pants, color of t-shirt and length of t-shirt sleeves).

Yes, it was discussed a lot. IIRC the general consensus was that he looked too short. I think his nose doesn't look right either, but that's just me.

 

[Zella]

That quote was confusingly worded in the article. I thought what it meant is he thought Bryer did all the work in the murders, ie. pulling the trigger. Well I guess not judging by the discussion above about Prof Dyck's murder scene

SBM

I took it to mean actual work, though I'm absolutely baffled about what it could be.

Here's what he said:

When asked more details about the encounter and the teens’ behaviour, he said he wasn’t sure which teen seemed to be the leader.

“Not sure. I think Kam was but Bryer was the one doing all the work.

They were 'really nice kids' says Alberta man who inadvertently helped 2 BC teen fugitives

 

[acutename]

SBM

I can't decide on whether or not they were under the influence, but if they were, it would go a long way toward explaining their bad decisions.

I suspect some of it, too, is them being teenagers who'd never left home. Living on your own and having some life experience adds a lot of common sense that I suspect these two didn't have and never really needed in their day-to-day lives.

if they were really that "hopeless" and helpless, I do not think the parents would have allowed them to go on the road trip. If, for instance, you got lost going 10 miles to work, I do not think you would try to drive across a continent. If you really had never gone on any trips, I do not think you would go away for weeks, but maybe I am way off in my assumptions. I realize they were technically adults, so I am not sure they were "allowed," or if they just quit their jobs and left. Maybe KM's comment about "our parents told us to take a long road trip," was pure sarcasm.

 

[NJSleuth91]

SBM

I can't decide on whether or not they were under the influence, but if they were, it would go a long way toward explaining their bad decisions.

I suspect some of it, too, is them being teenagers who'd never left home. Living on your own and having some life experience adds a lot of common sense that I suspect these two didn't have and never really needed in their day-to-day lives.

It totally would explain a lot. The main reason why I think they were under the influence is just it seems logical to me. Two troubled teenagers out on their own for the first time, in the middle of nowhere with NO cops for hundreds of miles around? What teenager would be sober?

That's a good point. Both of them seemed pretty sheltered, especially Bryer, and both seemed like they were very dependent on their families before this. I think that's part of the reason why they went off the rails so fast in the absence of any support system. But like if they really burned the car because they thought it was untraceable that way...that's like Murder 101!

So, we're basically talking homicidal turnips here. That actually fits rather well with things like getting stuck in the mud inside a town, and heading down a dead-end highway (literally, in their case).

LOL. Well I wouldn't say turnips necessarily, more like "Trailer Park Boys" level of dumb (see what I did there....) I mean...there is significant evidence of idiocy being present. I feel like they probably did think they could just hide out in the woods in Gillam though and that it would be like the woods near where they lived, without realizing a) the culture of that area where everyone knows everyone and keeps an eye out, and b) that it is such an inhospitable hellscape that there should be a death metal song written about it or something.

 

[Zella]

if they were really that "hopeless" and helpless, I do not think the parents would have allowed them to go on the road trip. If, for instance, you got lost going 10 miles to work, I do not think you would try to drive across a continent. If you really had never gone on any trips, I do not think you would go away for weeks, but maybe I am way off in my assumptions. I realize they were technically adults, so I am not sure they were "allowed," or if they just quit their jobs and left. Maybe KM's comment about "our parents told us to take a long road trip," was pure sarcasm.

Oh I don't think they were completely helpless. I just think if you've always lived at home, as they seemed to have, means you're not going to necessarily have the common sense of someone who has had to live on their own. Living on your own independent of family means someone isn't always there to bail you out and you have to engineer your own solutions. I don't know that they'd ever been in that situation beyond this trip, and that obviously didn't end well for multiple people. I don't consider the camping trips they did on their own anything like living on their own.

I agree with you that Kam was being sarcastic about the "joyride" he claims his parents told him to go on. It actually shows a sliver of wit and personality.

 

[Zella]

That's a good point. Both of them seemed pretty sheltered, especially Bryer, and both seemed like they were very dependent on their families before this. I think that's part of the reason why they went off the rails so fast in the absence of any support system. But like if they really burned the car because they thought it was untraceable that way...that's like Murder 101!
.

SBM

I've kind of interpreted the burning of the cars as more like a teenager pyro thing or a stalling tactic or both, but who knows with these two.

 

[srper2]

I still think something unexpected happened to them at the pullout where they killed Mr D, as there must have been some reason they did not go back to their truck and transfer belongings into Mr D's car, or if their truck had been there where Mr D was parked, transfer belongings then after they killed him. Instead they burnt everything, seemingly taking only BS's suit and not much else. LE only arrived after the truck was reported burning. Did they really have BS's suit with them, or was that an incorrect report? Why would BS take his suit and not also his computer, unless he was initially expecting to be on foot, knowing he couldn't carry the computer and move fast. Why was the truck's bonnet up? Was it broken down? I would be very interested to see any pics of tyre marks from the area where the truck was burned.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Oh I don't think they were completely helpless. I just think if you've always lived at home, as they seemed to have, means you're not going to necessarily have the common sense of someone who has had to live on their own. Living on your own independent of family means someone isn't always there to bail you out and you have to engineer your own solutions. I don't know that they'd ever been in that situation beyond this trip, and that obviously didn't end well for multiple people. I don't consider the camping trips they did on their own anything like living on their own.

With that article posted about how young people who commit murder "due to robbery or no clear reason" have issues with handling stress, I wonder if the stress of being out on their own in a completely unfamiliar environment with no previous experience contributed. Like, it put them on edge, maybe made them more prone to anger/nihilism and less able to control their impulses?

I agree with you that Kam was being sarcastic about the "joyride" he claims his parents told him to go on. It actually shows a sliver of wit and personality.

Well we know what the movie will be called..."The Long Joyride."

*please don't actually make a movie about this, movie industry...have some decency for once....

SBM

I've kind of interpreted the burning of the cars as more like a teenager pyro thing or a stalling tactic or both, but who knows with these two.

Yeah I know we talked about whether it was meant to be a middle finger to their families or a "we're never coming back from this," especially considering Bryer's gaming computer was there. There could have been an element of that. It probably had multiple conscious and subconscious things behind it. We've probably put more thought into figuring out what it meant than they did, TBH....

 

[Arizona 123]

Has codependency been discussed in these threads at all? I've ready most of the last five or six threads and don't recall it (If it has been delved into, my apologies, and if someone lets me know before the edit window expires, I'll remove my post).
From;
Codependency - Wikipedia
Cermak proposed the following criteria for this disorder:[10]

Continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others in the face of serious adverse consequences.
Assumption of responsibility for meeting others' needs to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own.
Anxiety and boundary distortions around intimacy and separation.
Enmeshment in relationships with personality disordered, chemically dependent, other co‐dependent, or impulse‐disordered individuals.
Three or more of the following:
Excessive reliance on denial
Constriction of emotions (with or without dramatic outbursts)
Depression
Hypervigilance
Compulsions
Anxiety
Substance abuse
Has been (or is) the victim of recurrent physical or sexual abuse
Stress related medical illnesses
Has remained in a primary relationship with an active substance abuser for at least two years without seeking outside help.

"relationship" in this context means any close interpersonal relationship (such as best friends), so I'm not trying to speculate on anyone's orientation here.

This made me wonder - what if one of the two suspects was codependent, and the other was a psychopath? Psychopaths can be outwardly charming to people who don't know them well - and sometimes even to those that do.

 

[MistyWaters]

if they were really that "hopeless" and helpless, I do not think the parents would have allowed them to go on the road trip. If, for instance, you got lost going 10 miles to work, I do not think you would try to drive across a continent. If you really had never gone on any trips, I do not think you would go away for weeks, but maybe I am way off in my assumptions. I realize they were technically adults, so I am not sure they were "allowed," or if they just quit their jobs and left. Maybe KM's comment about "our parents told us to take a long road trip," was pure sarcasm.

I think the “our parents told us to take a long road trip," was his account for why they driving a car with noticeable B.C. licence plates and almost into Saskatchewan, as if they had parental approval for a long road trip. A sarcastic excuse built upon an total lie as well, as the car was stolen. Their parents didn’t send then there. They were fleeing the scene of three murders.

 

[Sparrow2]

Or something we haven't considered yet. What if they didn't start out delusional...but they became delusional in the woods?

Most definitely! I mentioned this possibility once before when considering their state of mind after being on the run for a while without adequate food, sleep or shelter. I'm not sure if you remember the story about the old woman who went missing berry picking during the same time period elsewhere in Manitoba - she was found after 5 days. She is the grandmother of a friend of a friend of mine. She apparently was completely delusional. She kept imagining people were showing up and offering help. They would demand money, however and when she told them she had none, they would leave. When the rescuers showed up, she had no idea whether they were real people or not.

 

[srper2]

With that article posted about how young people who commit murder "due to robbery or no clear reason" have issues with handling stress, I wonder if the stress of being out on their own in a completely unfamiliar environment with no previous experience contributed. Like, it put them on edge, maybe made them more prone to anger/nihilism and less able to control their impulses?



Well we know what the movie will be called..."The Long Joyride."

*please don't actually make a movie about this, movie industry...have some decency for once....



Yeah I know we talked about whether it was meant to be a middle finger to their families or a "we're never coming back from this," especially considering Bryer's gaming computer was there. There could have been an element of that. It probably had multiple conscious and subconscious things behind it. We've probably put more thought into figuring out what it meant than they did, TBH....

I have thought a fair bit about the gaming computer being left behind to burn. Maybe BS thought that his dad would buy him another better one, maybe they took the expensive parts out and put in a pocket, SSD, graphics card etc. hard to know without seeing it closer. but it seems Bryer would have struggled with losing something that would have been costly for him. All in, it seems they set the truck on fire and fled asap, willing to lose all their belongings. They surely must have known that they would be linked to the murder of a man just up the road? I think if their truck was running, Mr. D would not have died.