Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #17

[Optics]

Not quite Optics.
The 'online media' was quoting:
Canadian law enforcement has never been particularly accountable, said Sean Holman, an associate professor of journalism at Mount Royal University in Calgary, and that means the public’s ability to know whether police are conducting themselves and their investigations properly suffers.
You couldn't have read the article.

I did 'read the article' I still stand by what I say. Mr. Holman as I'm sure you are aware deals in the field of journalism, I'm not saying there aren't faults within our national law enforcement, but let's be real, the media didn't draw to Alan Schmegelsky because of anything other than a desire for insider gossip to spill out onto the public platform. Don't forget there are over 33 million people in this country, it's one thing to speak to a murder within a city in a quick fashion, however these murders were not common, ordinary, and took a lot of 24/7 work by LE to even establish who the suspects are, let alone chasing after them half way across the 2nd largest country in the world. There is a whole lot of data and information combined with forsensics that is required to be completed. There is no vast rcmp conspiracy. They don't release half the information, they release the factual information.

 

[Jan424]

I wasn't going to comment on butterflies, but...there is a rare arctic butterfly. It is not pink, but it lives in Pink Mountain. Pink Mountain is also home to a herd of wild plains bison.

This thread has many rabbit holes.

That sounds so interesting, I’ll have to look that up. You are right about the rabbit holes tho.

 

[Gina20]

That sounds so interesting, I’ll have to look that up. You are right about the rabbit holes tho.

Pink Mountain

 

[Jan424]

Pink Mountain

Thank you!!

 

[sandbar]

Mostly I agree with you, yet our RCMP are in a bit of an awkward spot. The parents of two of the victims are not obliged, as are we under our privacy (secrecy) laws, to accept a conclusion that the two youths are guilty because 'we say so'.

In particular, Lucas' father is an Australian cop, I doubt he will accept anything but a full disclosure of the investigation. Then there's the US and Aussie press, neither of whom are bound by Canadian laws. Not least, we BC residents have a tax-payers right to know our roads are safer because the correct criminals are dead.

Lots of legs on this one yet. Its been two weeks since the autopsy, and you say the RCMP are still investigating. Difficulty trying to match the evidence well enough to prove guilt, perhaps?
It is a complicated weave of information, I'll credit them that much.

Think practically: police work requires time. K&B were doing their thing for about 3 weeks. It's going to take atleast 3 weeks for RCMP to retrace K&B's tracks, let alone interview, compile, reinterview, retrieve digital evidence from the burned computer(s?), look at CCTV footage, etc.

 

[MistyWaters]

Mostly I agree with you, yet our RCMP are in a bit of an awkward spot. The parents of two of the victims are not obliged, as are we under our privacy (secrecy) laws, to accept a conclusion that the two youths are guilty because 'we say so'.

In particular, Lucas' father is an Australian cop, I doubt he will accept anything but a full disclosure of the investigation. Then there's the US and Aussie press, neither of whom are bound by Canadian laws. Not least, we BC residents have a tax-payers right to know our roads are safer because the correct criminals are dead.

Lots of legs on this one yet. Its been two weeks since the autopsy, and you say the RCMP are still investigating. Difficulty trying to match the evidence well enough to prove guilt, perhaps?
It is a complicated weave of information, I'll credit them that much.

The update will be provided to the families first. Ensuring they’re satisfied with the quality of the investigation is far more significant than public opinion IMO. I’m certain the victims families will share their thoughts via the media once the public update is said and done.

“The BC RCMP commits that once we have completed that review within the next few weeks, we will be providing the families with an update with respect to the totality of the investigations and then releasing the information publicly.”
RCMP in British Columbia - Update – RCMP confirm cause of death and provide update on the Northern BC triple homicide investigations

 

[NJSleuth91]

Think practically: police work requires time. K&B were doing their thing for about 3 weeks. It's going to take atleast 3 weeks for RCMP to retrace K&B's tracks, let alone interview, compile, reinterview, retrieve digital evidence from the burned computer(s?), look at CCTV footage, etc.

Yeah seriously...this isn't Law and Order. A few weeks is really fast for an investigation. I know it seems like forever to us because we're obsessed with the case, but it's actually super fast.

I think they found a bunch of evidence pretty early on. I even said that right after the bodies were found and they said a report was expected in a few weeks. Then last week the information about the video came out. For all we know, maybe Kam and Bryer gave a really detailed account of everything that happened in the video. We can only hope.

 

[sandbar]

dbm

 

[Lalalacasbah]

That's where there is inconsistency in the narrative to explain their behaviour. On the one hand, they want to say these two were doing it as a thrill kill, wanted the bodies to be found, etc... but then they go completely social media silent. There are plenty of places along their route that could have had free wifi, even if their internet access was spotty.
As for them choosing LF and CD, why would they just drive down a random road, and then expect to find a young couple? They would have had to head south from where they were. So they decide to murder these two, then head north again? Why not just keep heading south, then keep going east? Their movements don't add up.

I think the only reason they possibly went silent on social media is because LE can track them that way (guessing here). Maybe they were cruising for that day or two looking for perfect victims in the right place at the right time however, for some reason I still feel like a conversation or interaction was had with the couple that triggered one of them, MOO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Think practically: police work requires time. K&B were doing their thing for about 3 weeks. It's going to take atleast 3 weeks for RCMP to retrace K&B's tracks, let alone interview, compile, reinterview, retrieve digital evidence from the burned computer(s?), look at CCTV footage, etc.

I agree. Also toxicology results often take weeks and I’m certain post-death investigation involves a run of tests for B&K to determine any possible trace of chemical usage or drug interaction. The process to subpoena US companies such as FB involves a cross border court order and as far as gaming sites, I wouldn’t want to guess which country they’re domiciled however I’m certain it’s not Canada and as a result the time required to obtain out-of-country data records is not within the control of the RCMP.

Had this case went to trial, it would’ve taken months for evidence to be turned over the the defence. That a few weeks was required to thoroughly conclude the investigation and prepare a final update is totally reasonable IMO.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I agree. Also toxicology results often take weeks and I’m certain post-death investigation involves a run of tests for B&K to determine any possible trace of chemical usage or drug interaction.

Great point. They're definitely going to do toxicology, and even in celebrity deaths, that takes weeks to come back.

The process to subpoena US companies such as FB involves a cross border court order and as far as gaming sites, I wouldn’t want to guess which country they’re domiciled however I’m certain it’s not Canada and as a result the time required to obtain out-of-country data records is not within the control of the RCMP.

I don't think it's even going to go that far. There's been a lot of legal battles in the tech world over turning over user information ("it's ok for us and other companies to spy on our users, but not the government!") Remember that whole unlocking the iPhone fiasco, I think in the San Bernardino shooting? So if they were planning to use that, it would take forever. I think everything the RCMP needed was already there, probably in the video, maybe even in texts.

I do have a legal question though...if they had apps on their phone with evidence on them, like let's say they had Whatsapp and were planning things over that, and it's already logged in so all you have to do is press the app icon and you can see everything...would LE just be able to look at that right away or would they need to subpoena for that too?

Had this case went to trial, it would’ve taken months for evidence to be turned over the the defence. That a few weeks was required to thoroughly conclude the investigation and prepare a final update is totally reasonable IMO.

It would have taken years. 100% they would have gone for an insanity defense.

 

[sandbar]

The process to subpoena US companies such as FB involves a cross border court order and as far as gaming sites, I wouldn’t want to guess which country they’re domiciled however I’m certain it’s not Canada and as a result the time required to obtain out-of-country data records is not within the control of the RCMP.

These are great points. I don't do FB, but I think there's an FB Canada, isn't there?
The gaming question is a good one too. If LE screen grabbed (or whatever) K&B's social media accounts when they were up and public, would LE need a search warrant (or whatever)?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

They were like 70 miles away from any civilization. How would they have gotten internet access?

I have no idea, but someone deleted the profiles. People on here are saying Facebook did but I don't think they would just go and do that. There have been much higher profile cases and their FB accounts were still up. I'm trying to find out if they legally can.

I've only found this so far but it's in the USA not Canada. Article says what Facebook gives police/courts when asked. Different then outright deleting though.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jwherrman/how-cops-see-your-facebook-account

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Yes it’s an extremely happy picture of them together. Maybe that’s the point.... they were happy doing what they were doing together till the end. I mean, who really knows. As for the butterflies, it’s just interesting since a few posters believe the picture was changed while they were joy riding. And I don’t think they were the brightest bulbs on the tree, but I disagree with trailer park boys dumb. Admittedly tho, K & B knowing butterfly symbolism is a long shot. MOO

I'm going out on a limb here - maybe it's for their family. Maybe that was part of their last will and testament was to have that photo of them at their funeral of even buried with them. Don't think people put photos on tombstones anymore if buried but I'm outta that loop.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Looks like it's a bottle of Russian Standard Vodka to me.

Good eye! You're the second person (so far that I've read and I'm catching up) that thinks vodka.

 

[sandbar]

I have no idea, but someone deleted the profiles. People on here are saying Facebook did but I don't think they would just go and do that. There have been much higher profile cases and their FB account were still up. I'm trying to find out if they legally can.

I've only found this so far but it's in the USA not Canada. Article says what Facebook gives police/courts when asked. Different then outright deleting.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jwherrman/how-cops-see-your-facebook-account

Great points.

I think it's possible FB made their accounts private or blocked them from view but to delete them?

That doesn't seem right...

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Thank you! Good eye!

Bryer always seems to have an assortment of soda cans surrounding him in pictures.

Too funny, I just posted a similar response and I didn't even read your post yet! FREAKY <insert Twilight Zone music here>... I said 'good eye' too LOL.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't think it's even going to go that far. There's been a lot of legal battles in the tech world over turning over user information ("it's ok for us and other companies to spy on our users, but not the government!") Remember that whole unlocking the iPhone fiasco, I think in the San Bernardino shooting? So if they were planning to use that, it would take forever. I think everything the RCMP needed was already there, probably in the video, maybe even in texts.

I do have a legal question though...if they had apps on their phone with evidence on them, like let's say they had Whatsapp and were planning things over that, and it's already logged in so all you have to do is press the app icon and you can see everything...would LE just be able to look at that right away or would they need to subpoena for that too?



It would have taken years. 100% they would have gone for an insanity defense.

It’s not so much there’s potentially a battle for information. But a court order to release information must be served from within the same country as the company is domiciled. So a Canadian court order is meaningless to FB, as a US court order must be obtained from a US judge. So it always takes longer for due process to take place from Canada because FB, Twitter, Instagram, etc are not Canadian companies, even though they provide service to Canadians.

I’m not familiar with Whatsapp but in general JMO the RCMP would obtain all data involving potential communication directly from the source (app) to ensure nothing was deleted. 3 months, 6 months, how long might they look back? No idea. But if anything is found of interest, then a second round of court orders are required to obtain information associated to the specific user’s identity. After the IP or email address of the user is known, once again another court order to obtain additional information directly from the service provider to further assist in IDing the user. I can understand how this must become a lengthy and tedious process.

 

[Zella]

Too funny, I just posted a similar response and I didn't even read your post yet! FREAKY <insert Twilight Zone music here>... I said 'good eye' too LOL.

My eyes are too bad to read the writing on that bottle, so I'm glad some folks could make it out.

I did have a hunch, though, that it was some sort of vodka because my impression of that image is Bryer was really hamming up his Slavic heritage. What that has to do with the ginger ale also there, I will never know. LOL

I think Bryer must have been in some constant state of snacking. I've yet to see a pic of him by himself without munchies and soda lying around. Even that nice pic of him in the suit--the full picture has 2 Coke cans and a coffee mug on the table in front of him.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

this would imply that they saw CD and LF very clearly somewhere - earlier in the day or earlier in the trip and selected them, not that they just came upon them or the van in the semi-darkness and attacked because they thought the van was empty or isolated

That is what I think. I think there was an interaction prior and it wasn't totally random or stumbling upon. I think they might've even talked and something went squirrely.

If Bryer was a hot head, all it might've taken was one wrong comment by the couple and that was it. Many crimes happen that way - over one comment and the killer stews over it for sometimes hours, days or years (think Douglas Garland)... or so I've been told by someone with background in criminal psychology who worked at a pen. MOO