Canada - USA Trade War commencing March 2025 #3

[Charlot123]

Yes, perhaps unemployed arts graduates will find jobs creating cars, each stamped with a QR code for their instagram account in case anyone wants to employ them as an influencer.

No laughing matter, @Cedars, and I am concerned. AI will phase out lots of jobs, worldwide. I remember people being unhappy when some US-based companies used to phase out US customer service jobs to India. What happens when AI takes over? The whole world will be hit, and badly so. No sense to pretend it will be US only.

The fact that US is trying to sell natural resources is not a good symptom, and in general, most countries relying on export of natural resources are going to hit a wall soon. The supply will outweigh the demand.

About cars. The production was outsourced not because the quality of work was better or worse anywhere else. It is just the way the market works, methinks, it moves to places with "comparable" quality but much cheaper labor. Even if the quality is slightly worse, it is the net cost that matters most. I remember a situation when several generic companies closed one big QC factory in Asia causing a shortage of generics in Europe. The QC missed one parameter in six people. After a while, the factory was opened again, with some restructuring. Even if they missed something, the cost of labor was cheaper than anywhere else.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, the problem started 20 years ago - 2005. Every government since then has been spend-happy. 2025 seems to be the year that the USA has so much unmanaged debt that the country has one trillion dollars per year in interest. The USA will lose status ... unless it starts stealing from other countries.

The USA is currently doing everything it can to steal from Ukraine, Canada and Greenland. There's no question that the USA desperately needs money through theft of natural resources. If it was an option, presumably the USA would just buy what it needs, but that's not an offer on the table.

"Fitch Ratings followed suit in August 2023, also cutting its U.S. credit rating to AA+ from AAA, citing a “steady deterioration in standards of governance over the last 20 years, including on fiscal and debt matters."

https://www.barrons.com/articles/debt-doom-u-s-triple-a-credit-rating-22cacf99

Well, much as I was very unhappy with Bush's major decisions, i think several factors contributed.

- "deregulation" still needs to be regulated. Maybe initially it gives the stimulus, but there is a limit to everything. I can't trace how other countries deal with it separately, but it would be interesting to find out who is the most reasonable one. Singapore? New Zealand? No idea.

- this is very interesting. Corruption perception index. It is interesting to compare 1995 with 2005 with 2015 and 2024. Maybe, just maybe, my husband who says, "Denmark is only 5 million people. If anyone steals, easier to notice. US is 340 million..." is not far off the mark. But of course, The Supreme Court’s 2010 ruling in "Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission" did not help at all. Perhaps there are other factors.

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2015

- Why US desperately needs money or rare metals now is another question and maybe a Canadian can understand it better that anyone else. It might be even invested in US getting them. It is another thing that, as i suspect, most countries are facing the same problems. It is worldwide. So Canada can't lower the asking price, and US can't meet it.

But, perhaps things still can be negotiated. Everyone needs to look at the map. Then, send good negotiators. Reasonable ones.

 

[Charlot123]

That's funny! It sounds like he wants to import Canadian automaker employees to work in the USA as under-privileged foreign workers. Maybe he can set them up in government owned buildings and deduct their rent and food from their income. Trump sure has a bad attitude about people in foreign countries! He seems to view foreigners as slaves for the USA people.

I suspect he is looking elsewhere but you have to settle people in the area with a cheap cost of living. His businesses are in the most expensive states, no?

 

[Cedars]

No laughing matter, @Cedars, and I am concerned. AI will phase out lots of jobs, worldwide. I remember people being unhappy when some US-based companies used to phase out US customer service jobs to India. What happens when AI takes over? The whole world will be hit, and badly so. No sense to pretend it will be US only.

The fact that US is trying to sell natural resources is not a good symptom, and in general, most countries relying on export of natural resources are going to hit a wall soon. The supply will outweigh the demand.

About cars. The production was outsourced not because the quality of work was better or worse anywhere else. It is just the way the market works, methinks, it moves to places with "comparable" quality but much cheaper labor. Even if the quality is slightly worse, it is the net cost that matters most. I remember a situation when several generic companies closed one big QC factory in Asia causing a shortage of generics in Europe. The QC missed one parameter in six people. After a while, the factory was opened again, with some restructuring. Even if they missed something, the cost of labor was cheaper than anywhere else.

My point was, the US is not India, my perception is that young people in the US, unlike in India, are not dreaming of getting factory jobs.

All western economies have gone through vast transformations in the last 150 years, from being primarily agricultural, then with efficiencies in agriculture people left farms to work in factories, and as factories declined people moved into service jobs, the best of which require education, but which then lead to personal wealth undreamed of by farm workers in 1900s or factory workers in 1950.

However, that has nothing to do with trade. Free trade is seen by all economists as a positive force for creating jobs and properous economies, because it maximizes the possibilities for each part of the world to share what it does best, and acquire what it wants.

The best example is the US itself: the free trade between individual states means each state can sell goods to other states eg Michigan sells cars in Florida and gets orange juice it can't produce.

Only some kind of imaginary nationalism makes it ok to trade between states but not between countries.

And, very importantly, there is a free trade agreement between North American countries that Trump himself signed. Normally, honoring your agreements is important.

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

My point was, the US is not India, my perception is that young people in the US, unlike in India, are not dreaming of getting factory jobs.

All western economies have gone through vast transformations in the last 150 years, from being primarily agricultural, then with efficiencies in agriculture people left farms to work in factories, and as factories declined people moved into service jobs, the best of which require education, but which then lead to personsal wealth undreamed of by farm workers in 1900s or factory workers in 1950.

However, that has nothing to do with trade. Free trade is seen by all economists as a positive force for creating jobs and properous economies, because it maximizes the possibilities for each part of the world to share what it does best, and acquire what it wants.

The best example is the US itself: the free trade between individual states means each state can sell goods to other states eg Michigan sells cars in Florida and gets orange juice it can't produce.

Only some kind of imaginary nationalism makes it ok to trade between states but not between countries.

And, very importantly, there is a free trade agreement between North American countries that Trump himself signed. Normally, honoring your agreements is important.

JMO

Well, yes. I would say, even less of wealth and more the lifestyle. The electric power grid, the antibiotics, the vaccines, the birth control.

Trade is trade. Trade means "selling goods to one another". Even barter is a trade, only less convenient one. You send me lumber, i send you wine. No tariffs, even.

What was happening in the US, economically, was export of jobs and import of goods. It Is something different from barter or sales. US problems are rooted in this process, not in free trade. And NAFTA, while not fully working for Mexico, with Canada, was totally operational.

Everyone in my generation is criticizing the millennials, but if we look at the world, millennials still saw some trouble. It postsoviet space the 90es were horrible time, for example. So unless we are talking about millennials in the best Western countries, the rest still saw adversity.

Generation Z might be the first one who had much better childhood. Economically, I mean. They had it so good that some don't know what to ask for as gifts. They are slightly naive. Plus, COVID made it much worse. Isolation in formative years makes people even less mature.

And this generation is having to battle the results of decisions made by my generation and the lifestyle we had. Plus, polluted earth.

I am afraid they won't manage. Especially the children of parents in IT sector who were paid exceptionally well.

 

[Cedars]

I am afraid they won't manage. Especially the children of parents in IT sector who were paid exceptionally well.

Yes, they'll manage...of course. A whole generation went through WWI, losing everything during the Depression, and then WWII. They managed, and created institutions like the UN, NATO, the World Bank, etc, to try to prevent it from happening again. But who cares: America First!

 

[Betty P]

That's funny! It sounds like he wants to import Canadian automaker employees to work in the USA as under-privileged foreign workers. Maybe he can set them up in government owned buildings and deduct their rent and food from their income. Trump sure has a bad attitude about people in foreign countries! He seems to view foreigners as slaves for the USA people.

That probably won’t work. Canadians are accustomed to having affordable national health care. Musk won’t want to pay Canadian workers enough money to make up for the high cost of health insurance and copays in the US.

 

[otto]

I suspect he is looking elsewhere but you have to settle people in the area with a cheap cost of living. His businesses are in the most expensive states, no?

Wouldn't it be better to train tradespeople and engineers in the USA than import foreign workers to do the job? Whether the work is out-sourced to another country, or foreign workers are imported to do the work, the USA is no further ahead. They still can't do the work themselves.

"Peter Frise, a professor of automotive engineering at the University of Windsor ...

One way Trump could achieve that goal would be by strengthening the U.S. education system, Frise says.

"They have a chronic shortage of skilled tradespeople and engineers," he said. "And you can't make things without those kinds of people with skills like that. And so they need to graduate more engineers and more skilled tradespeople."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/trump-tariffs-auto-canada-cars-fact-check-1.7458911

 

[Betty P]

If the US debt is so bad, why is the currency strong?

(PS- as per google:
When was the last time the US was debt-free?


AI Overview
The U.S. was debt-free for the first and only time in history in early 1835, when President Andrew Jackson paid off the entire national debt. )
And Japan has more debt:
What country is in the most debt?


AI Overview
As of March 2025, Japan is expected to have the world's highest public debt-to-GDP ratio at 242%, followed by Singapore and Sudan.


Here's a breakdown of countries with high debt levels:

• Japan: Expected to have the highest public debt-to-GDP ratio at 242%.
• 
  
• Singapore: Forecasted to have a public debt of 173% of GDP.
  
  
• 
  
• Sudan: Forecasted to have a public debt of 128% of GDP.
  
  
• 
  
• United States: A significant global debtor, with a debt-to-GDP ratio around 129%.
  
  
• 
  
• China: Has a national debt of over $10 trillion, which is about 68.06% of its GDP.

Not sure what impact all the tariff action will have but I see the debt figures thrown around and used
for every reason... IMO.

The tariff scheme is a scam. There are much more efficient ways of paying down debt, the first being eliminating all the recent tax cuts given to the wealthiest Americans. Many pay no taxes at all. Make taxes fair again, with everyone sharing the cost. Start going after the wealthiest tax cheats.

Trump isn’t interested in paying down the national debt, his stunts and false claims are only a distraction for the folks who thrives on conspiracy theories.

 

[otto]

The tariff scheme is a scam. There are much more efficient ways of paying down debt, the first being eliminating all the recent tax cuts given to the wealthiest Americans. Many pay no taxes at all. Make taxes fair again, with everyone sharing the cost. Start going after the wealthiest tax cheats.

Trump isn’t interested in paying down the national debt, his stunts and false claims are only a distraction for the folks who thrives on conspiracy theories.

True - Trump renewed his tax cuts for this presidential term, adding $4 trillion to the national debt. Rather than reduce the debt, he is giving tax cuts to rich people and adding what they would pay in taxes to the debt that poor people will eventually have to pay.

"But President-elect Donald Trump has made renewal of the signature tax cuts of his first term a priority, which would add an additional $4 trillion to the national debt above the CBO estimates."

https://www.barrons.com/articles/debt-doom-u-s-triple-a-credit-rating-22cacf99

 

[LovesPeace2]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/tesla-protest-day-of-action-1.7497131

I'm actually an EV owner, so I support electric vehicles, but when Elon Musk's wealth is used as a way to exert power over entire countries, I think we have an obligation to come out here and protest the existence of this company," demonstrator Jason Hanson said at the Saskatoon event.

"I don't like bullies ... and I don't like plutocrats," he said. "We can't protest Donald Trump right now because he doesn't have a Trump Tower in Saskatoon. So this is the next closest thing."

 

[LovesPeace2]

https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/28/business/canada-tariffs-carney-trump-retaliaton/index.html

a statement Friday, Carney’s office said Canada plans to implement retaliatory tariffs on US goods next week in response to Trump’s promised import taxes. But Carney offered no specifics – including timing and the scope of the retaliatory tariffs.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, they'll manage...of course. A whole generation went through WWI, losing everything during the Depression, and then WWII. They managed, and created institutions like the UN, NATO, the World Bank, etc, to try to prevent it from happening again. But who cares: America First!

Well, to start with, they have created, yes. Before the UN. Do you remember what happened to the League of Nations? (( These institutions work till they work, but when they stop, there is a need for a genius manager. If they emerge, great. If not, there is chaotic disaster.

Then, of course, there were exceptionally smart people (and very good politicians!) like FDR who could work with people disagreeing with him. Personal loyalty was less important than a person’s utility to the country. This requires great interpersonal skills, of course. Fantastic, if what I read about FDR can be believable. And amazing self-discipline, too. And, flexibility.

The tragedy is that America First! we have precisely because the previous government failed as well. ((

I also see the same trend, the same tendencies worldwide. Technocratic elite. Well, they say De Gaulle was like this, and yet he made a great leader. But, it might be an exception to the rule.

 

[LovesPeace2]

Posthaste: Is Canada's thirst for tariff retaliation 'misguided' or the only option against Trump?

Poll after poll shows angry Canadians are on board when it comes to hitting back, but some economists aren't convinced. Keep reading here.

financialpost.com

Derek Holt, Bank of Nova Scotia​

In addition to the new retaliatory tariffs imposed by Canada on Thursday, Derek Holt, vice-president and head of capital markets economics at the Bank of Nova Scotia, has some other ideas.

For one, he thinks Ottawa should cancel its order for U.S.-built F-35 fighter jets. Liberal Leader Mark Carney has called for a review of the deal with Lockheed Martin Corp.

Furthermore, “don’t spend one further dime on U.S. military equipment in favour of European companies. Impose an import ban on Teslas and its parts. Tariff broader American autos,” he said in a note on Thursday.

 

[Lilibet]

I was reading through the comments after that disgusting Greenland video posted earlier on Twitter/X.

This one says a lot about many Trump worshipers:

“90% of Icelanders want to be part of America, as we are the oldest and greatest country on earth”

Ummmm…it’s not about Iceland, and there are numerous countries older than the U.S. and looking to be a whole lot greater. Might does not make right. SMH

JMO

 

[otto]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/tesla-protest-day-of-action-1.7497131

I'm actually an EV owner, so I support electric vehicles, but when Elon Musk's wealth is used as a way to exert power over entire countries, I think we have an obligation to come out here and protest the existence of this company," demonstrator Jason Hanson said at the Saskatoon event.

"I don't like bullies ... and I don't like plutocrats," he said. "We can't protest Donald Trump right now because he doesn't have a Trump Tower in Saskatoon. So this is the next closest thing."

Nice signs!
... from your link!

 

[Lilibet]

I hear you. IMO, that's the danger of being too immersed in the news. The world is immensely complex, we can't predict what will happen or what the consequences of anything will be, over a period of time. Individuals can't control the world (including the President of the US), much less an ordinary person. Don't throw your life away in despair because we don't live in a perfect world.

One commentator (former Canadian living in the US) advised Americans to just focus on what each can do within the democratic (small d) system. Protests just bring out the extremists. Reasonable people, doing reasonable things, is IMO, what the world really needs.

I’ve been thinking about your comment @Cedars. Perhaps I have misread your tone as more complacent than you meant it to be. If so, I apologize.

I respectfully disagree with your point about not being able to predict the long term consequences of what we’re seeing. We are seeing consequences develop in real time daily that could very well become long term. If you pay attention to the news, this country is becoming more autocratic and isolationist by the day. It will be very difficult to come back from this, if we ever have the opportunity.

Trump Tyranny Tracker | Olga Lautman | Substack

Documenting corruption, human rights abuses, and dismantling of American democracy. Click to read Trump Tyranny Tracker, by Olga Lautman, a Substack publication with tens of thousands of subscribers.

trumptyrannytracker.substack.com

(Olga Lautman is an approved source on WS)

You’re right, we can’t control what is going on and yes, we should each do our small part to resist, as Prof. Timothy Snyder recommends.

https://ia601505.us.archive.org/11/items/on-tyranny-twenty-lessons-from-the-twentieth-century-by-timothy-snyder-z-lib.org/On%20Tyranny%20Twenty%20Lessons%20from%20the%20Twentieth%20Century%20by%20Timothy%20Snyder%20%28z-lib.org%29.pdf

Staying informed doesn’t mean we have to “throw our lives away in despair because we don’t live in a perfect world” as you say. But we should definitely stay well-informed even if it makes us glum on occasion. There is absolutely nothing about what Trump/Musk are doing to this country to be relaxed about. This is about SO much more than tariffs.

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

Wouldn't it be better to train tradespeople and engineers in the USA than import foreign workers to do the job? Whether the work is out-sourced to another country, or foreign workers are imported to do the work, the USA is no further ahead. They still can't do the work themselves.

"Peter Frise, a professor of automotive engineering at the University of Windsor ...

One way Trump could achieve that goal would be by strengthening the U.S. education system, Frise says.

"They have a chronic shortage of skilled tradespeople and engineers," he said. "And you can't make things without those kinds of people with skills like that. And so they need to graduate more engineers and more skilled tradespeople."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/trump-tariffs-auto-canada-cars-fact-check-1.7458911

1) first - secularize the country. I am 100% accepting of any religion, but - at home. Please.

2) unify the education system. There is no core curriculum in the country. A shame.

3) About tradespeople - it is a country of immigrants, and USA always imported workers. Chronic shortage of skilled tradespeople and engineers might still be less related to education, though, and more - to a certain tilt in the career choices.

Explosive growth of the demand in coding skills has resulted in people with enough smarts to become good engineers, physicists, mathematicians or physicians chose computer science instead. Four years of college and you are set for life. (For some, a coding bootcamp was enough.) Engineering or a physicist’s degree takes longer because to be competitive, you also have to do a postdoc, etc. Medical degree takes much longer. So we might have overrepresentation of one profession at the relative shortage of others; as I suspect, it is the world trend. (Maybe there are countries with less of a salary gap between a programmer and a physicist, but I assume that the market works the same way).

Another aspect of it might be a high amount of people with H1B visas who have lost the jobs and now might need to leave. Again, it is the world problem. A huge problem is not only finding jobs back home. I strongly suspect that ten years of exposure to Western culture might create huge difficulties with re-acculturating. It probably will never happen, to be true.

 

[Charlot123]

I was reading through the comments after that disgusting Greenland video posted earlier on Twitter/X.

This one says a lot about many Trump worshipers:

“90% of Icelanders want to be part of America, as we are the oldest and greatest country on earth”

Ummmm…it’s not about Iceland, and there are numerous countries older than the U.S. and looking to be a whole lot greater. Might does not make right. SMH

JMO

Was it signed, "Erik the Red" ? Anyhow, he was known to exalt the truth.

 

[Lilibet]

Back in 2017, around the time of Trump’s first inauguration, there was a cartoon that I’ve saved all these years. I think it’s appropriate now, even more so. I’d have to pay the cartoonist to post a link here, so I’ll just describe it.

Trump is standing at a White House window looking out at the inauguration crowds. The caption reads

“SUCKERS”​

The cartoonist is Clay Bennett and it was published in the Chattanooga Times Free Press.