CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #52 *ARREST*

[ilovechili]

I'm sure she enjoyed it and never gave a thought to KB and lil K never being able to share B-days together. Let's be real..she puts herself first so I'm sure did did here as well.
Oh but I like the cake with the 33 scented candles and and she closes her eyes part, lol. We can only hope.

I totally agree.

And one can hope/wish... I think you read my mind on that one...

 

[Seattle1]

IIRC, PF's cellphone records indicated he went home late Thanksgiving afternoon. He went out again later that evening to visit RS, his 'surrogate' father and returned to the ranchette.

I don't know if anything has been released about where he went or what he did the next day, Friday. KK didn't arrive until the next day, Saturday. If it was hard to eat Thanksgiving dinner after murdering KB, it must have been even harder to hang out all day, knowing the condo is a blood-spattered mess and KB's body in a tote is somewhere. (I don't recall when he took the body to the barn).

Is it possible that KK rolled into town, went to PF's gate to get the condo key, went to the condo, cleaned up, did the Sonic run and met up with PF at the gas station. Perhaps then they took both vehicles to KB's condo and left PF's there? I'm pretty sure only one vehicle went to the barn and I'm pretty sure it was KK's, because I thought it must have been jammed with the bags of trash she took from the condo and the tote with KB's body.

I believe it was late January or maybe February that a local Woodland Park blogger interviewed a woman only identified as a Florissant neighhbor of PF who stated that he worked at her ranch for most of the day Friday - day after Thanksgiving. I believe she agreed to do the interview because she was wanted the public to know that even though PF worked for her on Friday, she still had not been contacted by LE. MOO

 

[kay74]

No matter what happens, I don’t see him ever confessing to any part of this.

That includes the location of Kelsey's remains.

He beat Kelsey to death, the least of his concerns would be the well-being of Kelsey’s family.

Unless there is something in it for him, he’ll keep quiet.

Yes it'll be a surprise if he fesses up and clears his conscience.

 

[GordianKnot]

Yes it'll be a surprise if he fesses up and clears his conscience.

What conscience?

 

[ilovechili]

I wonder when and if ever we will ever hear about the rest of the search warrants and results. And why KK's FB warrant was canceled.

The exhibits.

When CBS will get the transcript of the prelim.

Does the man ever have to plead?

We have been listening for months about determining when and how consumptive testing will proceed (actually that is not true it kind of went quiet for some time). The defense actually seems to be more interested in it now than the pros if indeed anyone truly is interested at all anymore.

If I had to make a guess, it would be one or the other of the guns.

I expect trial in about three to four years at minimum if something does not pick up. Delays are well known to benefit the defense.

There would not even be a case but for the Berreths is quite honestly a possibility. I think upon any wellness check if they do not locate the person it would be a great standard everywhere to check with neighbors and check for cameras at the time of the wellness check. Before any surveillance video may be covered up. One does not need a warrant when in many cases most neighbors would be more than willing to help with anything they saw, anything their camera may have recorded before it is covered up or deleted.

Not meant in judgment but pretty much all fact. Hindsight...

 

[MassGuy]

I wonder when and if ever we will ever hear about the rest of the search warrants and results. And why KK's FB warrant was canceled.

The exhibits.

When CBS will get the transcript of the prelim.

Does the man ever have to plead?

We have been listening for months about determining when and how consumptive testing will proceed (actually that is not true it kind of went quiet for some time). The defense actually seems to be more interested in it now than the pros if indeed anyone truly is interested at all anymore.

If I had to make a guess, it would be one or the other of the guns.

I expect trial in about three to four years at minimum if something does not pick up. Delays are well known to benefit the defense.

There would not even be a case but for the Berreths is quite honestly a possibility. I think upon any wellness check if they do not locate the person it would be a great standard everywhere to check with neighbors and check for cameras at the time of the wellness check. Before any surveillance video may be covered up. One does not need a warrant when in many cases most neighbors would be more than willing to help with anything they saw, anything their camera may have recorded before it is covered up or deleted.

Not meant in judgment but pretty much all fact. Hindsight...

Yeah, there are still some outstanding search warrants that have yet to be released.

I’ll take everything I can get here.

I think that KK’s Facebook warrant was unnecessary, because she likely provided law enforcement with access.

This is similar to PF’s phone, which would also normally require a warrant. He of course handed it over willingly, so no warrant was necessary.

As soon as the lab results are done, even without the consumptive testing ruling, I think we’ll see a plea entered.

Recent history says this case is over a year out, but this case has far more evidence to comb through, which makes it more complex than most.

I think 2 years is a solid expectation, unless PF fires his attorneys down the road. If that were to occur, then it would be substantially longer than that.

It would have helped this case immensely, had law enforcement pulled surveillance video much earlier, but I don’t see the procedures changing in that regard.

To make that a standard, would require a great deal of time and manpower.

Welfare checks occur all the time, and most don’t have nefarious implications.

I’m far more bothered by law enforcement missing blood evidence during the initial walkthrough.

That allowed for the crime scene to be compromised.

It doesn’t change what they found, but it will likely help the defense.

 

[kay74]

What conscience?

Everyone has one. Some people don't listen to it. Then when they're time comes it's "I'm afraid". In other words, obey your conscience God gave you.

 

[MassGuy]

Everyone has one. Some people don't listen to it. Then when they're time comes it's "I'm afraid". In other words, obey your conscience God gave you.

Psychopaths do not have one.

That’s not to say that PF is a psychopath though.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/sociopath-psychopath-difference

“A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to.

Recent research suggests a psychopath’s brain is not like other people’s. It may have physical differences that make it hard for the person to identify with someone else’s distress.”

 

[Love Never Fails]

I always believed every person had a conscience. But I have come to realize some people are born evil, predestinated to be that way. It’s unnerving for a normal person to even consider. That’s why some criminals cannot be rehabilitated.

 

[ajaylee]

Yeah, there are still some outstanding search warrants that have yet to be released.

I’ll take everything I can get here.

I think that KK’s Facebook warrant was unnecessary, because she likely provided law enforcement with access.

This is similar to PF’s phone, which would also normally require a warrant. He of course handed it over willingly, so no warrant was necessary.

As soon as the lab results are done, even without the consumptive testing ruling, I think we’ll see a plea entered.

Recent history says this case is over a year out, but this case has far more evidence to comb through, which makes it more complex than most.

I think 2 years is a solid expectation, unless PF fires his attorneys down the road. If that were to occur, then it would be substantially longer than that.

It would have helped this case immensely, had law enforcement pulled surveillance video much earlier, but I don’t see the procedures changing in that regard.

To make that a standard, would require a great deal of time and manpower.

Welfare checks occur all the time, and most don’t have nefarious implications.

I’m far more bothered by law enforcement missing blood evidence during the initial walkthrough.

That allowed for the crime scene to be compromised.

It doesn’t change what they found, but it will likely help the defense.

Re: the welfare check. They are tricky - I've heard of a family member calling for a welfare check on another family member strictly to harass that person. It can also be dangerous, depending on how it is handled. At the same time, I have a family member who wouldn't be here today if the police hadn't broken down her door when she didn't respond to a welfare check. She was a young woman who had had a terrible stroke and was lying helpless on the floor, unable to move.

That said, when a mother with small children goes missing and the child/children are with the SO/husband, I think those welfare checks should be more thorough. I haven't heard any hard data on how often mothers abandon their young children, particularly mothers with a steady job and no prior history of substance abuse or mental health issues, but I suspect the numbers are pretty low.

Drew Peterson and Chris Watts come immediately to mind. Yeah, we're supposed to believe both of those mothers just up and ran away with their mythical boyfriend. Sorry, I just don't believe it happens that way very often - if ever.

I agree about the early stages of the investigation - that first search of the house with a cadaver dog and luminol was inexcusably sloppy. Were it not for the efforts of CB, I think PF would have gotten away with it.

One of the bigger hurdles for the defense is to try (maybe) to hint at an alternative scenario to explain the facts. Here's one I heard last night as some folks at dinner were speculating: PF gave KB her gun back, thought she was 'sane'. He went over on Thanksgiving day, she'd found out about KK, she took her just-returned gun and either shot herself or got shot as he struggled to get the gun from her. He panicked, knowing things had been bad between them and that the SO is the first suspect, and (tug at the heartstrings moment) his dear little daughter was in the next room and he was just thinking about her. Everything afterwards was the result of a panicking but innocent guy.

PF's buddies RS and the Cline's Corner guy would believe this.

 

[ilovechili]

Yeah, there are still some outstanding search warrants that have yet to be released.

I’ll take everything I can get here.

I think that KK’s Facebook warrant was unnecessary, because she likely provided law enforcement with access.

This is similar to PF’s phone, which would also normally require a warrant. He of course handed it over willingly, so no warrant was necessary.

As soon as the lab results are done, even without the consumptive testing ruling, I think we’ll see a plea entered.

Recent history says this case is over a year out, but this case has far more evidence to comb through, which makes it more complex than most.

I think 2 years is a solid expectation, unless PF fires his attorneys down the road. If that were to occur, then it would be substantially longer than that.

It would have helped this case immensely, had law enforcement pulled surveillance video much earlier, but I don’t see the procedures changing in that regard.

To make that a standard, would require a great deal of time and manpower.

Welfare checks occur all the time, and most don’t have nefarious implications.

I’m far more bothered by law enforcement missing blood evidence during the initial walkthrough.

That allowed for the crime scene to be compromised.

It doesn’t change what they found, but it will likely help the defense.

Unless Woodland Park, around 7,500 people, has far more crime than the population would suggest(?), I do not think a woman whose mother called from another state who had not heard from her in some days and upon LE not finding her (were both of her vehicles there, even odder no?) checking with a neighbor or two does not seem like an out there suggestion. I just cannot see lack of manpower or constant serious emergencies they are being called out on being that likely in a town of that size and, if so, then follow up later that day or the next. That being said, I could be wrong and it is easy to second guess, I simply do not think it would be a bad practice when the person is not located, she has a child, work has not seen her, etc. It is not like it was the day of nor even the day after her mother called concerned. Yet hindsight is 20/20. Far be it from me to suggest a thought or conversation that LE consider such a thing, that is certainly up to each agency, I think the smart ones with time may even do such a thing. Just think what they may have for what has turned into a murder case, for taking such an extra step at the time would be nothing but admirable from taking such an extra maybe 5 minute step.

KK's warrant may have been unnecessary, who knows, maybe she did willingly provide that but not other things, could be. I, however, would never assume her willing access (if there was indeed any given without restrictions, that is your opinion not a fact right?) is what they would want to go by, they know she has lied previously. I would still contact FB for anything they had that may have been deleted, for other possible accounts, etc. and everything else one could possibly access. For a jury, I would want a pure warrant and FB access and officially provided records, not a KK granted access and to date, there is no reason to believe she granted any such access.

I do not disagree with regard to the blood evidence and missing it. And the Berreths finding it.

I am including possibilities of change of attorneys (delay until new attorneys can get up to speed), change of venue, motions, etc. Just an outside prediction of three to four years. At the rate so far anyhow. We do not even have an arraignment yet that has proceeded.

Just my opinion of course. Short of a guilty plea or a deal.

Jmho.

 

[kay74]

Psychopaths do not have one.

That’s not to say that PF is a psychopath though.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/sociopath-psychopath-difference

“A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to.

Recent research suggests a psychopath’s brain is not like other people’s. It may have physical differences that make it hard for the person to identify with someone else’s distress.”

But God would not give anyone an excuse for sinning because they had no conscience. I believe as always that we all have a conscience, some people ignore it.

 

[ajaylee]

I don't think PF thinks he did anything wrong - well, except in the eyes of the law.

I think by the time he worked himself up to killing KB, he firmly believed it was not only justified, but necessary for his happiness. If you asked him 'what about the law?' he'd probably say that the 'law' doesn't always get it right.

If he has trouble sleeping at night, it isn't because he hurt and murdered KB. It's because he had to do it himself and he hasn't gotten away with it.

IIRC, someone mentioned that SF was praying at PF's last court appearance. I wondered if she was praying for justice - or praying for PF to get off, whether or not she believes he did it.

 

[Love Never Fails]

But God would not give anyone an excuse for sinning because they had no conscience. I believe as always that we all have a conscience, some people ignore it.

Bible says He made some to honor, some to dishonor. Look at Pharoah, or Pilate or Judas. His judgments are righteous. No excuses for anyone. I am not arguing Kay but I do believe some are just evil from birth.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Re: the welfare check. They are tricky - I've heard of a family member calling for a welfare check on another family member strictly to harass that person. It can also be dangerous, depending on how it is handled. At the same time, I have a family member who wouldn't be here today if the police hadn't broken down her door when she didn't respond to a welfare check. She was a young woman who had had a terrible stroke and was lying helpless on the floor, unable to move.

That said, when a mother with small children goes missing and the child/children are with the SO/husband, I think those welfare checks should be more thorough. I haven't heard any hard data on how often mothers abandon their young children, particularly mothers with a steady job and no prior history of substance abuse or mental health issues, but I suspect the numbers are pretty low.

Drew Peterson and Chris Watts come immediately to mind. Yeah, we're supposed to believe both of those mothers just up and ran away with their mythical boyfriend. Sorry, I just don't believe it happens that way very often - if ever.

I agree about the early stages of the investigation - that first search of the house with a cadaver dog and luminol was inexcusably sloppy. Were it not for the efforts of CB, I think PF would have gotten away with it.

One of the bigger hurdles for the defense is to try (maybe) to hint at an alternative scenario to explain the facts. Here's one I heard last night as some folks at dinner were speculating: PF gave KB her gun back, thought she was 'sane'. He went over on Thanksgiving day, she'd found out about KK, she took her just-returned gun and either shot herself or got shot as he struggled to get the gun from her. He panicked, knowing things had been bad between them and that the SO is the first suspect, and (tug at the heartstrings moment) his dear little daughter was in the next room and he was just thinking about her. Everything afterwards was the result of a panicking but innocent guy.

PF's buddies RS and the Cline's Corner guy would believe this.

ITA, that's the only plausible defense my hubs and I could come up with as well. The thing that we know that can refute or cast doubt directly to that is KK's story of solicitations, at least so far, who knows what else the DA has that we don't know. I think it's a good bit more.

 

[MassGuy]

Re: the welfare check. They are tricky - I've heard of a family member calling for a welfare check on another family member strictly to harass that person. It can also be dangerous, depending on how it is handled. At the same time, I have a family member who wouldn't be here today if the police hadn't broken down her door when she didn't respond to a welfare check. She was a young woman who had had a terrible stroke and was lying helpless on the floor, unable to move.

That said, when a mother with small children goes missing and the child/children are with the SO/husband, I think those welfare checks should be more thorough. I haven't heard any hard data on how often mothers abandon their young children, particularly mothers with a steady job and no prior history of substance abuse or mental health issues, but I suspect the numbers are pretty low.

Drew Peterson and Chris Watts come immediately to mind. Yeah, we're supposed to believe both of those mothers just up and ran away with their mythical boyfriend. Sorry, I just don't believe it happens that way very often - if ever.

I agree about the early stages of the investigation - that first search of the house with a cadaver dog and luminol was inexcusably sloppy. Were it not for the efforts of CB, I think PF would have gotten away with it.

One of the bigger hurdles for the defense is to try (maybe) to hint at an alternative scenario to explain the facts. Here's one I heard last night as some folks at dinner were speculating: PF gave KB her gun back, thought she was 'sane'. He went over on Thanksgiving day, she'd found out about KK, she took her just-returned gun and either shot herself or got shot as he struggled to get the gun from her. He panicked, knowing things had been bad between them and that the SO is the first suspect, and (tug at the heartstrings moment) his dear little daughter was in the next room and he was just thinking about her. Everything afterwards was the result of a panicking but innocent guy.

PF's buddies RS and the Cline's Corner guy would believe this.

That defense is attempted a lot, “I found my significant other dead, and I panicked.”

I don’t think I’ve ever seen it work, for obvious reasons.

Chris Watts’ defense was similar to that, especially when he attempted to explain disposing of his children’s bodies.

You’d have to be gullible to the point of delusion, in order to believe something like that.

He very well might go for that defense though, especially if there’s no way to point at KK.

I look forward to his conviction.

 

[Hatch]

Yeah, there are still some outstanding search warrants that have yet to be released.

I’ll take everything I can get here.

I think that KK’s Facebook warrant was unnecessary, because she likely provided law enforcement with access.

This is similar to PF’s phone, which would also normally require a warrant. He of course handed it over willingly, so no warrant was necessary.

As soon as the lab results are done, even without the consumptive testing ruling, I think we’ll see a plea entered.

Recent history says this case is over a year out, but this case has far more evidence to comb through, which makes it more complex than most.

I think 2 years is a solid expectation, unless PF fires his attorneys down the road. If that were to occur, then it would be substantially longer than that.

It would have helped this case immensely, had law enforcement pulled surveillance video much earlier, but I don’t see the procedures changing in that regard.

To make that a standard, would require a great deal of time and manpower.

Welfare checks occur all the time, and most don’t have nefarious implications.

I’m far more bothered by law enforcement missing blood evidence during the initial walkthrough.

That allowed for the crime scene to be compromised.

It doesn’t change what they found, but it will likely help the defense.

I agree the blood evidence that LE missed is pretty shabby on the officers that went into the condo, and there had to still be a bleach or cleaning scents in the air, perhaps WP police need a training refresher in that Dept. unless KK brought something to spray to neutralize the odors. I still think there would have been a slight odor. Did they go in with the idea it might be a crime scene? Hmmm I am doubting it.

 

[MassGuy]

I agree the blood evidence that LE missed is pretty shabby on the officers that went into the condo, and there had to still be a bleach or cleaning scents in the air, perhaps WP police need a training refresher in that Dept. unless KK brought something to spray to neutralize the odors. I still think there would have been a slight odor. Did they go in with the idea it might be a crime scene? Hmmm I am doubting it.

I think it’s pretty clear that they didn’t believe that a crime had been committed, much less the house was a crime scene.

I also think that PF’s lies served him well here, and law enforcement may have believed they were dealing with a woman with mental health issues, who had taken off.

 

[ajaylee]

That defense is attempted a lot, “I found my significant other dead, and I panicked.”

I don’t think I’ve ever seen it work, for obvious reasons.

Chris Watts’ defense was similar to that, especially when he attempted to explain disposing of his children’s bodies.

You’d have to be gullible to the point of delusion, in order to believe something like that.

He very well might go for that defense though, especially if there’s no way to point at KK.

I look forward to his conviction.

For those that followed the Watts case, there's a particular bit of compelling footage: when he and the cops view the neighbor's security footage that exposes his lies.

I would like to see the comparable PF moment: the moment during interrogation or in the courtroom when he's caught and he knows it and we know it.

 

[ilovechili]

Re: the welfare check. They are tricky - I've heard of a family member calling for a welfare check on another family member strictly to harass that person. It can also be dangerous, depending on how it is handled. At the same time, I have a family member who wouldn't be here today if the police hadn't broken down her door when she didn't respond to a welfare check. She was a young woman who had had a terrible stroke and was lying helpless on the floor, unable to move.

That said, when a mother with small children goes missing and the child/children are with the SO/husband, I think those welfare checks should be more thorough. I haven't heard any hard data on how often mothers abandon their young children, particularly mothers with a steady job and no prior history of substance abuse or mental health issues, but I suspect the numbers are pretty low.

Drew Peterson and Chris Watts come immediately to mind. Yeah, we're supposed to believe both of those mothers just up and ran away with their mythical boyfriend. Sorry, I just don't believe it happens that way very often - if ever.

I agree about the early stages of the investigation - that first search of the house with a cadaver dog and luminol was inexcusably sloppy. Were it not for the efforts of CB, I think PF would have gotten away with it.

One of the bigger hurdles for the defense is to try (maybe) to hint at an alternative scenario to explain the facts. Here's one I heard last night as some folks at dinner were speculating: PF gave KB her gun back, thought she was 'sane'. He went over on Thanksgiving day, she'd found out about KK, she took her just-returned gun and either shot herself or got shot as he struggled to get the gun from her. He panicked, knowing things had been bad between them and that the SO is the first suspect, and (tug at the heartstrings moment) his dear little daughter was in the next room and he was just thinking about her. Everything afterwards was the result of a panicking but innocent guy.

PF's buddies RS and the Cline's Corner guy would believe this.

Exceptional points and so well stated.

A mother missing with a full-time job with a child and family who did not live nearby I would take a good look at and spend more than a minute checking out if she was not there but her vehicles were. It also was not like she had been missing for a few hours or even a day or so.

And yes, RS and CC would eat up such a proposed scenario because it fits what they need to keep in their wheelhouse of simple CC PF opinion and bias. How did this group continue--why did they think PF then sent the gun with KK? Hmm. Why blood in more than one room? Wouldn't you leave the gun next to KB with her fingerprints and gun powder residue if she killed herself? It seems like a simple straightforward, fairly simple theory but it fails. imo.