Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*

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  • #921
It's a press conference, not a court hearing. Prosecutors can say whatever they want at press conference.
If Agent Slater testified where KK said the baby was located during the murder, Kraemer didn't mention it anywhere in his blog and he was present at the prelim.

JMO
  1. Again, the blog was for the HEARING.
  2. After the hearing, they had a press conference.
  3. The prosecutor reiterated Slater's testimony.
  4. Sam tweeted a correction to his earlier tweet.
  5. He blamed the mistake on the courtroom acoustics.
  6. The affidavit says Kelsey was killed in the living room and Baby K was in the back room.
  7. Slater's testimony was that Kelsey was killed in the living room and Baby K was in the back room.
  8. The prosecutor confirmed that Slater testified Kelsey was killed in the living room and Baby K was in the back room.
  9. Links throughout the last several pages.
  10. Please stop repeating misinformation. The location of the murder is an important fact and we can't just go changing it to suit fancy, fantasy, or whatever.
  11. MOO MOO MOO
 
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  • #922
It's a press conference, not a court hearing. Prosecutors can say whatever they want at press conference.
If Agent Slater testified where KK said the baby was located during the murder, Kraemer didn't mention it anywhere in his blog and he was present at the prelim.

JMO
PF is on camera at Walmart with the child at 1:17 pm. He then drives to KB's and is there at 1:24 pm. No time to go anywhere to drop his child off.

She was with him when he arrived at KB's. She HAD TO be, because he couldn't let KB know anything was wrong. He didn't want her to be suspicious.

He pretended like it was a family Thanksgiving fun day. Let's make pecan casserole.
 
  • #923
The logical answer to me is that the baby remained in her car seat in his truck.
So what would KB say about that when he arrived? What excuse could he give to leave their baby in the truck?
Wouldn't KB immediately go out and retrieve her?

He couldn't leave her in the truck. He couldn't let his intended victim know anything was amiss.
 
  • #924
The logical answer to me is that the baby remained in her car seat in his truck.
That would be very risky to leave an unattended toddler in a vehicle while you are committing a murder. What if someone came to the door to report the baby was in the vehicle? Could be possible, but I personally doubt it. MOo
 
  • #925
The logical answer to me is that the baby remained in her car seat in his truck.

So PF left his baby in the car by herself for over two hours?

And then he lied to KK for some reason, or KK is lying about it for some reason?

This man bashed Kelsey’s face in. I can’t imagine he’d have any qualms about the baby being in the house at the time.

What evidentiary basis is there for the baby being in the truck? Last night she was at the Ranch.

Why did this change for you?
 
  • #926
SF was arrested in the beginning, and released?

PF is not being charged with a potential death penalty sentence, is that because there is no body?

District Attorney Dan May has stated that he asked the Colorado Attorney General's office for an their opinion of the strength of pursuing a death penalty in this case, which must include a "statutory aggravator" he said that the opinion returned was that there wasn't a strong one for the death penalty, and he decided accordingly.. The linked article, by Sam Kraemer, asks both of the candidates to replace Dan May their opinion. Since both of them have been well connected within May's office since well before this case began, I take it as the best alternative for May's own explanation (which may be covered by the general gag order, at this time). IMO
District attorney candidates offer death penalty context amid Frazee case
 
  • #927
So PF left his baby in the car by herself for over two hours?

And then he lied to KK for some reason, or KK is lying about it for some reason?

This man bashed Kelsey’s face in. I can’t imagine he’d have any qualms about the baby being in the house at the time.

What evidentiary basis is there for the baby being in the truck? Last night she was at the Ranch.

Why did this change for you?

Right. He leaves the baby in the truck then goes into the condo, where baby's mom was waiting for them.

Then what? He says 'Happy Thanksgiving Hon...the baby was annoying me, so I left her in the truck...can I have a cinnamon bun?'
 
  • #928
I asked a couple of people who have more recent experience with forensic burn evidence to comment on this case. Anthropologists typically deal with bones, as I'm sure everyone knows, and it's really hard to burn all bones in any kind of fire outside of specially designed crematoriums. For example, the base of the skull usually remains (and there's a bunch of research on how to begin to identify victims based on just that one part of the anatomy).

In this case, the melting point of any plastic tote (I'm assuming it's the heaviest kind of tote, the kind often seen in the truck beds of cowboy types) is not that high and unless gasoline was repeatedly applied, there would be remnants of the plastic.

The colleague who has the most experience said that if there was plastic, there had to be bone (unless someone fairly skilled had sifted through all the ashes prior to the investigator arriving). He pointed me to several citations involving very hot fires where police missed human fragments, but experienced forensic anthropologists found them. This is a specific subspecialty in forensic anthropology (burn fragments) but almost any biologically trained forensic anthropologist could pick out some of the major kinds of fragments that would remain. We have some plaster casts of bone fragments that survive that I can use in my own lab, and to be fair, almost no one would be able to tell that it was a burnt down piece of a skull. But after learning why, for example, the occiput burns the way it does, it's pretty easy to tell that one (and often overlooked).

Police in really big urban areas may have such a specialist somewhere within their own forensic team but most places do not have such a person on salary.

Someone like me would recognize some of the shapes of burned down bones (skull bones in particular) but only a very experienced and gifted forensic osteologist would get catch most of them; they almost always find things that police don't find but even they would want considerable forensic analysis of the site before it was touched). Further, this specialist would need to take all the ash, any baked pan, etc. to the lab.

So it's really hard to completely burn a human body. Lava flows don't always manage it. Jet plane crashes do not always manage it. It's also really hard to find and remove all of the bone.

Did they have a forensic archaeologist and osteologist, I wonder (sometimes the same person). They would have done a directed dig and bagging of the firebed and examined all fragments where instruments like powerful microscopes, x-ray and mri are available...as there are tell-tale signs embedded even in tiny bone fragments that reveal that they are bones. For example, I know how to tell wood or plastic from bone by the growth patterns visible only under a very good microscope (one that exceeds the budget of my college's lab). A person who is doing full time forensics in a well funded university lab, though, can see so much more. There are techniques (such as dusting with gold powder) to make these patterns more visible even on very small objects. Some parts of the skull can be used (even if badly burned) to determine age, sex and occasionally even a guess at ethnicity (used for reunification forensics).

So, a forensic anthropologist or osteologist would have been helpful to show that in fact, that burn area was used to burn a human. Further, with many fragments, the age of the person could be known. All of that would be helpful in prosecution, although this is apparently such a slam-dunk case that perhaps the State didn't want to pay for all of this??

There are some pretty darned good experts in Colorado, though, just saying.

Thanks for the information. I think there was a rather expensive and exhaustive landfill search but it was reported nothing was found. I think they are still investigating.

Landfill search for Kelsey Berreth over; remains not found
 
  • #929
PF is on camera at Walmart with the child at 1:17 pm. He then drives to KB's and is there at 1:24 pm. No time to go anywhere to drop his child off.

She was with him when he arrived at KB's. She HAD TO be, because he couldn't let KB know anything was wrong. He didn't want her to be suspicious.

He pretended like it was a family Thanksgiving fun day. Let's make pecan casserole.

I can only go by what LE said is seen on the security video. No mention of the baby being with PF when he returned to KB's door at 1:17 or later that afternoon. Logic tells me the baby remained in her car seat in the truck.

JMO
 
  • #930
I can only go by what LE said is seen on the security video. No mention of the baby being with PF when he returned to KB's door at 1:17 or later that afternoon. Logic tells me the baby remained in her car seat in the truck.

JMO
......or perhaps the baby got thrown out with the bath water?
 
  • #931
I asked a couple of people who have more recent experience with forensic burn evidence to comment on this case. Anthropologists typically deal with bones, as I'm sure everyone knows, and it's really hard to burn all bones in any kind of fire outside of specially designed crematoriums. For example, the base of the skull usually remains (and there's a bunch of research on how to begin to identify victims based on just that one part of the anatomy).

In this case, the melting point of any plastic tote (I'm assuming it's the heaviest kind of tote, the kind often seen in the truck beds of cowboy types) is not that high and unless gasoline was repeatedly applied, there would be remnants of the plastic.

The colleague who has the most experience said that if there was plastic, there had to be bone (unless someone fairly skilled had sifted through all the ashes prior to the investigator arriving). He pointed me to several citations involving very hot fires where police missed human fragments, but experienced forensic anthropologists found them. This is a specific subspecialty in forensic anthropology (burn fragments) but almost any biologically trained forensic anthropologist could pick out some of the major kinds of fragments that would remain. We have some plaster casts of bone fragments that survive that I can use in my own lab, and to be fair, almost no one would be able to tell that it was a burnt down piece of a skull. But after learning why, for example, the occiput burns the way it does, it's pretty easy to tell that one (and often overlooked).

Police in really big urban areas may have such a specialist somewhere within their own forensic team but most places do not have such a person on salary.

Someone like me would recognize some of the shapes of burned down bones (skull bones in particular) but only a very experienced and gifted forensic osteologist would get catch most of them; they almost always find things that police don't find but even they would want considerable forensic analysis of the site before it was touched). Further, this specialist would need to take all the ash, any baked pan, etc. to the lab.

So it's really hard to completely burn a human body. Lava flows don't always manage it. Jet plane crashes do not always manage it. It's also really hard to find and remove all of the bone.

Did they have a forensic archaeologist and osteologist, I wonder (sometimes the same person). They would have done a directed dig and bagging of the firebed and examined all fragments where instruments like powerful microscopes, x-ray and mri are available...as there are tell-tale signs embedded even in tiny bone fragments that reveal that they are bones. For example, I know how to tell wood or plastic from bone by the growth patterns visible only under a very good microscope (one that exceeds the budget of my college's lab). A person who is doing full time forensics in a well funded university lab, though, can see so much more. There are techniques (such as dusting with gold powder) to make these patterns more visible even on very small objects. Some parts of the skull can be used (even if badly burned) to determine age, sex and occasionally even a guess at ethnicity (used for reunification forensics).

So, a forensic anthropologist or osteologist would have been helpful to show that in fact, that burn area was used to burn a human. Further, with many fragments, the age of the person could be known. All of that would be helpful in prosecution, although this is apparently such a slam-dunk case that perhaps the State didn't want to pay for all of this??

There are some pretty darned good experts in Colorado, though, just saying.
I've seen the list of experts on the ME's site and I agree that they've got some good experts there. I don't know if they used a forensic archaeologist and/or osteologist but I do know that balls of melted plastic were found at the franchette. I don't think we've been told size, how many, etc. unless it's slipped my memory. Someone else may recall. MOO
 
  • #932
I've seen the list of experts on the ME's site and I agree that they've got some good experts there. I don't know if they used a forensic archaeologist and/or osteologist but I do know that balls of melted plastic were found at the franchette. I don't think we've been told size, how many, etc. unless it's slipped my memory. Someone else may recall. MOO

From Sam:

Slater says Arson Investigator jerry Meams came to the frazee property that day, Dec. 21. They excavated the area & found charred clumps of plastic. A test revealed there was accelerant in the debris. @KOAA #PatrickFrazee #KelseyBerreth #KrystalKenney

The melted plastic was described as black & clumped into small balls. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee #KrystalKenney

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
 
  • #933
If you want to believe the murder took place in the living room that's great. But I'll continue to hold my opinion that it did not and the child was not present. The prosecutor had the opportunity to correct the information while Slater was on the witness stand. I think the blog was never corrected because the source at the press conference was the prosecutor and NOT Agent Slater, who testified in court.

According to Slater's testimony, his interview with KK was taped. Hopefully, the jury will get to watch it for themselves to see where KK claimed the murder took place. Kinda strange how the only blood residue LE could detect was all over the bathroom including the door hinges.

I'm looking forward to the trial.

JMO
I wasn't talking about what I believe, I was referring to the tweets that were made in real time. It was clarified very soon after, from what I remember it was only minutes later.
It was never corrected in the blog that you posted.
That was the point I was trying to make.
There was blood found near the fireplace, on the ceiling, and in the floorboards in the living room.
The only blood mentioned in the back room was on the baby gate, which I'm assuming was at the entrance to the back room.

The blood found in the bathroom could have been evidence of a cleanup, since the sink and shower are in there.

IMO
 
  • #934
I can only go by what LE said is seen on the security video. No mention of the baby being with PF when he returned to KB's door at 1:17 or later that afternoon. Logic tells me the baby remained in her car seat in the truck.

JMO

Is it logical that KB would allow her young baby to remain alone in the truck on Thanksgiving afternoon?

What possible reason could PF have given her, to convince her to leave her baby outside in his truck?
 
  • #935
So PF left his baby in the car by herself for over two hours?

And then he lied to KK for some reason, or KK is lying about it for some reason?

This man bashed Kelsey’s face in. I can’t imagine he’d have any qualms about the baby being in the house at the time.

What evidentiary basis is there for the baby being in the truck? Last night she was at the Ranch.

Why did this change for you?


Colonel Mustard, in the Library with a candelabra. Roll again!
 
  • #936
From Sam:

Slater says Arson Investigator jerry Meams came to the frazee property that day, Dec. 21. They excavated the area & found charred clumps of plastic. A test revealed there was accelerant in the debris. @KOAA #PatrickFrazee #KelseyBerreth #KrystalKenney

The melted plastic was described as black & clumped into small balls. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee #KrystalKenney

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Thank you for finding that. :)

So, we know there was an arson investigator, @10ofRods.

MOO
 
  • #937
SF was arrested in the beginning, and released?

PF is not being charged with a potential death penalty sentence, is that because there is no body?

SF was handcuffed and detained. No death penalty because it's a moot point in CO. Last execution was in 1997. Most juries don't vote for it. Governor is against it.
 
  • #938
Okay, forget about the blog. The video below is of the press conference after the hearing.

Just after the 8-minute mark, the lead prosecutor says that the evidence presented today was that Baby K was in the back room when Kelsey was murdered.

Same as the affidavit, same as the courtroom testimony. PF murdered Kelsey in the living room. Or do you think the lead prosecutor is wrong too?

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AMEN!
 
  • #939
  • #940
From Sam:

Slater says Arson Investigator jerry Meams came to the frazee property that day, Dec. 21. They excavated the area & found charred clumps of plastic. A test revealed there was accelerant in the debris. @KOAA #PatrickFrazee #KelseyBerreth #KrystalKenney

The melted plastic was described as black & clumped into small balls. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee #KrystalKenney

Sam Kraemer on Twitter

Jerry Means is the Arson Investigator for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation.
CBI Arson Agent Named Investigator of the Year | Colorado.gov
 
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