NOTGUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

[HmmMysterious]

On the afternoon of May 1, 2023, former Michael Jackson impersonator Jordan Neely began acting in a "hostile and aggressive manner" while riding the F train in Manhattan. Sources say that he threw his jacket on the ground which made passengers move away. A witness said that Neely "started screaming in an aggressive manner...he said that he had no food, no drink, that he was tired, and doesn't care if he goes to jail." There are no signs that he physically assaulted or threatened anyone before a 24-year-old alleged former Marine grabbed Neely from behind.

The 24-year-old man then placed Neely in a fierce chokehold; Neely attempted to escape it for 2 minutes before his body stopped moving. 2 other subway riders held Neely down for another minute before one of them placed him on his back. The subway rider then moved Neely's body on its side to prevent him from choking on his saliva. Freelance journalist, Juan Alberto Vasquez, noticed Neely moved his arms before he completely stopped. The Medical Examiner's Office said Jordan Neely died from compression of the neck due to the chokehold and has labeled his death a homicide.

The NYPD detained the man behind Neely's death, questioned, and then released him which has generated anger. It has since been learned that Jordan Neely was homeless, had a history of mental illness, and had an active warrant out for his arrest due to felony assault.

The killing of Jordan Neely has caused considerable outrage. A rally was held on the same subway platform where Neely died 2 days later to demand justice and for more social services for people in need. Governor Kathy Hochul and Mayor Eric Adams have been accused of being complicit in Neely's killing by criminalizing the city's mentally unwell while at the same time doing nothing about the lack of affordable housing. The NYPD was accused of incompetence for releasing Neely's killer.

<modsnip - not an approved source>
What We Know About the Death of Jordan Neely
Medical examiner rules Jordan Neely's death a homicide after subway chokehold
<modsnip - not an approved source>
Outrage simmers in New York after the killing of Jordan Neely on a subway train

 

[Tricia]

The trial starts Monday, Oct 21st.

Daniel Penny is on trial for the murder of Jordan Neely

Daniel Penny’s lawyers will try to ‘put jurors in that train car’ and ask ‘what would you do?’ as trial begins

Jordan Neely’s death in a crowded Manhattan subway car struck a nerve with New Yorkers in May 2023, when bystander video of Daniel Penny placing the troubled homeless man in a fatal chokehold…

nypost.com

Past discussions
Thread #1
Thread #2
Thread #3

 

[Sillybilly]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859632177232650295

ADMIN NOTE:

Just an FYI for the record that Tricia has approved Inner City Press as a source in this discussion due to the live coverage of the trial.

ETA: Dan Rivoli is also approved.

 

[Sillybilly]

Okay folks, here is the 30 minute Daniel Penny interrogation video from an approved source:

 

[MadMcGoo]

Continue the discussion here.

 

[Lilibet]

I hadn’t had a chance to watch the 30 minute interview with LE yet and finally did. I was put off by his casual demeanor at first, but I’ll grant that it was probably nerves and the LEOs were chatty and acting kind of casual about the whole thing. But it echoed his casually leaning against the car looking at Mr Neely lying there. So it makes me think he thought it wasn’t a big deal (I realize he didn’t know Mr Neely was dead).

But to lie about releasing his hold and getting up when the two other guys were holding Mr Neely’s arms was brazen. That indicates to me that he knew he had held on too long. I wonder if he knew someone was making a video. Probably not. Oops!

This is really bad for his case.

 

[sunspun]

When was he informed that JN had died? I assumed that he knew while he was still on the subway, when JN was on the floor and the cops were using CPR on him... because DP was still there during that, wasn't he? Or did he not see all that happening?

 

[GRT]

The question now is whether the jury will understand what Dr.Chundru explained to them. If they do, DP will likely be found not guilty. If, like Dr. Harris, they don't understand it, they might find him guilty.

If Chundru is correct, and there's no reason to think he isn't, JN would have died had DP and the others restraining him chosen to simply hold one arm or leg.

Because JN died of exertional sickling, not a chokehold. It was JN's violent resistance to being restrained that triggered the sickling event. JN's mental illness contributed to his heightened state of anxiety, while the drugs in his system and his SCT combined to push his body into the sickling event that killed him.

Dr. Harris gave her best opinion, but she's just an MD who focuses on autopsies. She's par for the course in most cities. Dr. Chundru, on the other hand, is an actual forensic pathologist, someone who was first a doctor and then did a residency in forensic pathology. I hope Dr. Harris will now take it upon herself to learn what exertional sickling is because 9% of African Americans carry SCT, and they, too, are at risk.

There are only two questions the jurors need to ask themselves now:

Would a healthy person have died under DP's restraint that day? The answer is NO.
Would JN have died had he been restrained in a different fashion? As long as he was violently resisting, the answer is YES.

JMOO

Many peer-reviewed studies are out there about exertional sickling such as this one, this one, and this one.

 

[GRT]

When was he informed that JN had died? I assumed that he knew while he was still on the subway, when JN was on the floor and the cops were using CPR on him... because DP was still there during that, wasn't he? Or did he not see all that happening?

My guess is that DP didn't ask about JN's health because DP knew he hadn't exerted the sort of force that would put someone's life in jeopardy. I'm guessing DP thought JN was simply unconscious but would revive in time. MOO

And the cops weren't using real CPR anyway--a few chest compressions but no mouth-to-mouth. But it probably wouldn't have helped JN anyway because when someone has a sickling event, they require high-level oxygen treatment, and no one there was capable of administering that. And even that doesn't necessarily save them.

MOO from reading an extensive amount of peer-reviewed research on exertional sickling, prevention, and possible treatment.

 

[Inthedetails]

I mistakenly thought the F train entered the Broadway-Lafayette station from W4th, a 3-minute ride.

But, it was going the other direction and coming from 2nd Ave, which is a 1-minute ride.

The chokehold was 6 minutes.

jmo

 

[Lilibet]

There are only two questions the jurors need to ask themselves now:

Would a healthy person have died under DP's restraint that day? The answer is NO.
Would JN have died had he been restrained in a different fashion? As long as he was violently resisting, the answer is YES.

JMOO

Many peer-reviewed studies are out there about exertional sickling such as this one, this one, and this one.

The jurors won’t have access to peer reviewed studies, so they would have to answer those questions based on which doctor’s testimony they believed or had the most confidence in. It will be interesting to see what they decide.

 

[Inthedetails]

The jurors won’t have access to peer reviewed studies, so they would have to answer those questions based on which doctor’s testimony they believed or had the most confidence in. It will be interesting to see what they decide.

I don't think expert testimony is going to be the deciding factor for jurors.

IMO, the jury will see clearly that DP had the skills (and help around him) to keep JN pinned to the floor without killing him, yet DP held the chokehold for minutes after the passengers left. They will conclude, imo, that JN died because of that chokehold.

jmo

 

[jepop]

I don't think expert testimony is going to be the deciding factor for jurors.

IMO, the jury will see clearly that DP had the skills (and help around him) to keep JN pinned to the floor without killing him, yet DP held the chokehold for minutes after the passengers left. They will conclude, imo, that JN died because of that chokehold.

jmo

Agreed and adding that the defense expert's testimony is not the Gospel. Jmo. There's no way that expert can definitively say JN died owing to sickle cell. Prosecution cross cleared that up imo.

I won't get into the weeds about it, but to suggest JN is responsible for his own death due to his "violent resistance" whilst in the chokehold, as poster does up thread, is pretty abhorrent to me. I don't recall the defense expert testifying to that. And can't find anywhere is msm where defense expert said that. Moo

 

[Inthedetails]

But to lie about releasing his hold and getting up when the two other guys were holding Mr Neely’s arms was brazen. That indicates to me that he knew he had held on too long. I wonder if he knew someone was making a video. Probably not. Oops!

This is really bad for his case.

Snipped

I totally agree. He lied, yet Penny supporters claim his conversation with the cops matched the video evidence when it does not.

Penny lied to LE because he knew what he did to JN was unnecessarily excessive.

jmo

 

[jepop]

Snipped

I totally agree. He lied, yet Penny supporters claim his conversation with the cops matched the video evidence when it does not.

Penny lied to LE because he knew what he did to JN was unnecessarily excessive.

jmo

I agree, that is what I perceived from viewing the footage. Lying is consciousness of wrong doing jmo, especially in this instance re when he let up on the chokehold, which was an outright lie. Glad the Jury saw this whole 30 minute voluntary interview. All imoo.

 

[Inthedetails]

The question now is whether the jury will understand what Dr.Chundru explained to them. If they do, DP will likely be found not guilty. If, like Dr. Harris, they don't understand it, they might find him guilty.

If Chundru is correct, and there's no reason to think he isn't, JN would have died had DP and the others restraining him chosen to simply hold one arm or leg.

Because JN died of exertional sickling, not a chokehold. It was JN's violent resistance to being restrained that triggered the sickling event. JN's mental illness contributed to his heightened state of anxiety, while the drugs in his system and his SCT combined to push his body into the sickling event that killed him.

Dr. Harris gave her best opinion, but she's just an MD who focuses on autopsies. She's par for the course in most cities. Dr. Chundru, on the other hand, is an actual forensic pathologist, someone who was first a doctor and then did a residency in forensic pathology. I hope Dr. Harris will now take it upon herself to learn what exertional sickling is because 9% of African Americans carry SCT, and they, too, are at risk.

There are only two questions the jurors need to ask themselves now:

Would a healthy person have died under DP's restraint that day? The answer is NO.
Would JN have died had he been restrained in a different fashion? As long as he was violently resisting, the answer is YES.

JMOO

Many peer-reviewed studies are out there about exertional sickling such as this one, this one, and this one.

DP was trained in the Marines and knew how to administer a chokehold and he knew how long was safe, yet DP held the chokehold for considerably longer than he was trained to do. That time would be deadly for anyone, not just someone with sickle cell trait.

It was testified at trial that DP used a blood choke.

Here's info about a blood choke from the Marine website (DP would have had more training as this info is for tan belts and DP earned a green):

“A properly applied blood choke can knock out an enemy in less than eight seconds,” said Karnes. “Trying to restrict air to a victim can take close to a minute, which is enough time for the enemy to fight back.”

DP held the choke for MINUTES (plural).

The claim JN died because he struggled and sickle cell got him requires a need to struggle - and that need was a chokehold. The chokehold killed him and it would've killed someone who didn't have sickle cell trait. imo

DP was trained by the Marines, earned a green belt which shows he knew what he was taught, and he used a hold he knew was deadly when held as long as he held it. imo

Co. C recruits learn responsible use of force

In their fourth week of training, recruits of Company C, 1st Recruit Training Battalion, learned chokes and counter techniques during a Marine Corps Martial Arts Program session aboard Marine Corps

www.marines.mil

 

[Izzylizzy]

When was he informed that JN had died? I assumed that he knew while he was still on the subway, when JN was on the floor and the cops were using CPR on him... because DP was still there during that, wasn't he? Or did he not see all that happening?

IMO:
After DP let go of the choke and walked away from JN's 50+ secs lifeless body I assume that he knew that JN could be in trouble.
We know he was there when LE arrived and began giving JN medical aid (to no avail) but we don't know how long he remained in the subway and if he was there when the medic arrived and also gave JN medical said to no avail.
IIRC: the medics remained there and/or worked on JN for about 45 mins.
I have yet to see reporting of just how long he remained in the subway.

When the defense rested yesterday his attorney Kenniff told the media that DP would not be taking the stand and that the jury did hear from DP when he spoke to LE at the scene and again with LE a few hours later.
What we do know from the 30 min interrogation video that is the one shown to the jury by the prosecution' and released by the judge on Thurs. is that DP never inquired about JN's condition no matter what he knew or didn't know or may have surmised.
After watching the video I'm in the camp that thinks the detectives told DP that JN is dead when towards the end of the video they return to the interrogation room and question DP on his choke timeline which he had told them earlier in the interrogation that right after the 2 men had secured JN he released the choke and waited for LE which they knew was a lie due to having the video(s).
It was then that DP either asked about getting a lawyer or said he wanted one and stopped talking.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Agreed and adding that the defense expert's testimony is not the Gospel. Jmo. There's no way that expert can definitively say JN died owing to sickle cell. Prosecution cross cleared that up imo.

I won't get into the weeds about it, but to suggest JN is responsible for his own death due to his "violent resistance" whilst in the chokehold, as poster does up thread, is pretty abhorrent to me. I don't recall the defense expert testifying to that. And can't find anywhere is msm where defense expert said that. Moo

IMO:
IIRC:
Dr. Chundru put JN's resistance along with the SCT, K2 etc is what killed him and not the choke.

On cross Dr Harris got Dr Chundru to walk back quite a few serious claims that he made about the autopsy and photos of JN.
That the bruises and broken blood vessels on JN's neck did not line up with the position of DP's arm and that J did have broken vessels in his eyes.
His SCT claims were rebuked with his own writings and studies from the American Society of pathology.
He was an expensive smooth talker who when caught in a medical untruth would back down from his original claim but end with "JN didn't die from a chokehold".

Jurors do NOT like it when hired experts are caught in medical untruths,deceptions and deliberately confusing explanations that they used to line up with the defense's strategy.

 

[shotgun09]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1860061023098884600

 

[Donswife48]

From the defense opening statement:
While the state intends to argue that Penny never let up the initial pressure he placed on Neely's neck, the defense insists he made several attempts to loosen his grip, and that only had a light hold on Neely by the time he stopped fighting back.

Continuing opening statement:
'This struggle did last five to six minutes. But Danny was not, and could not, have been squeezing his neck. We know that because if he was, Neely would have passed out in the first minute,' Penny's lawyer, Daniel Kenniff said.

Further opening statements from defense:
Kenniff argued that Penny had only intended to intervene until police could come and take over.

'Something that took way longer than expected,' he said.

From the time police received the dispatch call, it took seven minutes for first responders to arrive.

It was then another 10 minutes before emergency services arrived with a defibrillator and more resources.

I've served on juries before. I have doubt over when JN died. 7 Min until police arrived after being called, a further 10 minutes pass before emergency services begin to administer aid. The time delay of lack of care from professionals could have been the contributing factor for JN's death. If he would have been attended to immediately, would he have been saved? I hope the jury is not swayed by outside influences. JMO

Testimony about 'dirty drug user' Jordan Neely at chokehold trial

At the trial of Marine veteran Daniel Penny an NYPD Sergeant described Jordan Neely as a 'dirty drug user,' explaining why officers refrained from giving him mouth-to-mouth.

www.dailymail.co.uk