Do you think a Stungun was used?

[Ames]

Originally Posted by UKGuy
Solace,

So why can the douching and sexual abuse not run together in parallel, how does douching account for her internal injuries or her enlarged hymen. Are you saying you think Patsy was sexually abusing her?

Without the forensic evidence of prior sexual molestation, I agree it may not be true, but the physical evidence suggests sexual abuse was occurring regularly, and if the intention of the wipe down and sexual injury was to enact staging , why bother hiding it, what homicidal intruder does that? I don't know that it says that. If she did not have the infections, I would agree with you. But she does have them and the itching can drive you crazy and as Ames points out it looked like she was scratching herself during a show and it did not take long for posters to say she was masturbating on stage - which she was not. She could have easily scratched herself internally and left a scar. My sister did. The doctor was shocked. But she said it was driving her crazy. He gave her antibiotics that looked like horse pills - swear to God!


.

I actually saw the show....I believe it was on Geraldo, if I am not mistaken. She was scratching herself with a saxaphone...it was obvious. Alot of the posts that I have read about this subject say...."I didn't see the video, or the show...BUT...I HEARD that she was masterbating". So, this rumor was started by people that hadn't even seen the clip.

 

[Solace]

Solace,
So you reckon her sexual assault was premeditated ?

Her staged sexual assault was premeditated, yes -- to take suspicion off the parents.

 

[JMO8778]

I actually saw the show....I believe it was on Geraldo, if I am not mistaken. She was scratching herself with a saxaphone...it was obvious. Alot of the posts that I have read about this subject say...."I didn't see the video, or the show...BUT...I HEARD that she was masterbating". So, this rumor was started by people that hadn't even seen the clip.

I agree,what did Geraldo and the audience think,did they give any opinion on it?sometimes he overdramatizes things.

 

[UKGuy]

Her staged sexual assault was premeditated, yes -- to take suspicion off the parents.

Solace,
But since we all know no intruder is going to take the time out to wipe down JonBenet and redress her in size-12 underwear, which effectively hides her sexual assault once her longjohns are pulled up, and she is further wrapped in blankets.

The net effect is that because the sexual assault staged or not was hidden, then the parents become the main suspects.


Something does not add up here, either the forensic evidence is wrong or the accident theory is incorrect?


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[Solace]

Solace,
But since we all know no intruder is going to take the time out to wipe down JonBenet and redress her in size-12 underwear, which effectively hides her sexual assault once her longjohns are pulled up, and she is further wrapped in blankets.

The net effect is that because the sexual assault staged or not was hidden, then the parents become the main suspects.


Something does not add up here, either the forensic evidence is wrong or the accident theory is incorrect?

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UK, listen carefully and excuse the wording please. When parents kill their children, they most of the time WILL lead you directly to where the body is. John did. When parents kill their children, they will usually do something to "care" for the child when they are hiding the child. I am not being facetious here, but I would think you would know this from all the analyzing you have done. This is EXACTLY what catches parents who kill most of the time - the fact that they took care in dressing the child, etc. after the death.

You are thinking that they are undoing what they are staging. In fact, in their minds, they are saying goodbye to her in a loving way. They did not "MEAN FOR THIS TO HAPPEN". They are sorry. So for you to say that something does not add up, imo, is exactly the opposite of what is true. It does add up that they would take care of her, that they would wipe her down. They swaddled her in a blanket and I read your other post where you thought they were not being loving because after all they killed her. But in fact that is exactly what a parent will do most of the time, try to arrange the child lovingly.

It was insanity that ruled that night UK, you are expecting logical thinking from an irrational act of murder on the part of the parent. It is not going to happen. This is not "Columbo" where the killers have thought of everything. This is a real murder on the part of a parent, who I believe loved her child, but after 15 hours of being up and probably ingesting some wine and definitely some xanax, she lost it and she killed her. Then she had to think of a way out. This is not something that was planned for months. It is a matter of hours before they have to call the police. Please remember that.

 

[JMO8778]

UK, listen carefully and excuse the wording please. When parents kill their children, they most of the time WILL lead you directly to where the body is. John did. When parents kill their children, they will usually do something to "care" for the child when they are hiding the child. I am not being facetious here, but I would think you would know this from all the analyzing you have done. This is EXACTLY what catches parents who kill most of the time - the fact that they took care in dressing the child, etc. after the death.

You are thinking that they are undoing what they are staging. In fact, in their minds, they are saying goodbye to her in a loving way. They did not "MEAN FOR THIS TO HAPPEN". They are sorry. So for you to say that something does not add up, imo, is exactly the opposite of what is true. It does add up that they would take care of her, that they would wipe her down. They swaddled her in a blanket and I read your other post where you thought they were not being loving because after all they killed her. But in fact that is exactly what a parent will do most of the time, try to arrange the child lovingly.

It was insanity that ruled that night UK, you are expecting logical thinking from an irrational act of murder on the part of the parent. It is not going to happen. This is not "Columbo" where the killers have thought of everything. This is a real murder on the part of a parent, who I believe loved her child, but after 15 hours of being up and probably ingesting some wine and definitely some xanax, she lost it and she killed her. Then she had to think of a way out. This is not something that was planned for months. It is a matter of hours before they have to call the police. Please remember that.

well-said.that's something LE says,not that I made it up...the fact she was wrapped up in a caring way in a blanket is something only a parent would do.

 

[Solace]

well-said.that's something LE says,not that I made it up...the fact she was wrapped up in a caring way in a blanket is something only a parent would do.

Thank you JMO. When Rocket posted that gem of Patsy's interview with Haney and he asks her to explain what happened when she found the note and she says I screamed up to John and he screamed to me from the basement, it was all clear to me. I thought that was as good as DNA. I really believe that there were two situations with the note, the first when they wrote it and the second when they pretended to find it, and Patsy in explaining mixed in the first scenario where she was writing it and John called her from the basement with the early morning scenario.

There is no reason to kill this child - it had to have been a rage accident. And I know people like Mark Furhman (sp) say it was an intentional murder. He never went into detail as to what he meant by "intentional" but I also believe it was intentional AT THAT MOMENT - the rage was such that she at that moment wanted her to just shut up and do what she was told and she killed her in the process of shoving her around. I bet that JonBenet was talking back in some way and that was just not happening tonight. Remember that Linda Hoffman-P said she heard them yelling all the time in the bathroom. Well Patsy was not up for that tonight, just do what you are told. That is how I see it anyway.

It really is a sad case.

 

[JMO8778]

Thank you JMO. When Rocket posted that gem of Patsy's interview with Haney and he asks her to explain what happened when she found the note and she says I screamed up to John and he screamed to me from the basement, it was all clear to me. I thought that was as good as DNA. I really believe that there were two situations with the note, the first when they wrote it and the second when they pretended to find it, and Patsy in explaining mixed in the first scenario where she was writing it and John called her from the basement with the early morning scenario.

There is no reason to kill this child - it had to have been a rage accident. And I know people like Mark Furhman (sp) say it was an intentional murder. He never went into detail as to what he meant by "intentional" but I also believe it was intentional AT THAT MOMENT - the rage was such that she at that moment wanted her to just shut up and do what she was told and she killed her in the process of shoving her around. I bet that JonBenet was talking back in some way and that was just not happening tonight. Remember that Linda Hoffman-P said she heard them yelling all the time in the bathroom. Well Patsy was not up for that tonight, just do what you are told. That is how I see it anyway.

It really is a sad case.

you're welcome,it is sad.About the RN,I agree,and the other part I thought was telling was when PR said she had flashbacks of JB screaming.I don't think she meant the bathroom sessions that LHP heard..I think she meant the night of the murder,and it makes sense that she would have flashbacks of it.So JB was either screaming from fear, or screaming back (or at PR),or maybe some of all 3.

I'm not sure what he means by intentional either,not that it was planned, but my guess is she was denied medical care after the head wound and then strangled with the cord,thereby ending her life and such as is,it is then intentional.

If anyone has DOI,pprback,p. 123,PR describes a panic attack she has...I believe it is a flashback of that night:

Sitting in the car on the way to the Dr's office,frightening thoughts started racing through my mind.Almost as if JonBenet's death were occurring for the first time,the terror and horror of what had happened settled over me.My heart pounded like a bass drum booming away inside my chest.The 'thump-thump' kept increasing and I fought to breathe.As if someone were strangling me,I desperately gasped for air.I kept thinking,"I've lost my daughter,who killed my child?'.The fierce reality of it all came crashing down,and a panic attack swallowed me.


In bold are the parts I think are interesting about that description of her panic attack.I think it was really a flashback(just like she said in the interview) of that night.

 

[Solace]

you're welcome,it is sad.About the RN,I agree,and the other part I thought was telling was when PR said she had flashbacks of JB screaming.I don't think she meant the bathroom sessions that LHP heard..I think she meant the night of the murder,and it makes sense that she would have flashbacks of it.So JB was either screaming from fear, or screaming back (or at PR),or maybe some of all 3.

I'm not sure what he means by intentional either,not that it was planned, but my guess is she was denied medical care after the head wound and then strangled with the cord,thereby ending her life and such as is,it is then intentional.

If anyone has DOI,pprback,p. 123,PR describes a panic attack she has...I believe it is a flashback of that night:

Sitting in the car on the way to the Dr's office,frightening thoughts started racing through my mind.Almost as if JonBenet's death were occurring for the first time,the terror and horror of what had happened settled over me.My heart pounded like a bass drum booming away inside my chest.The 'thump-thump' kept increasing and I fought to breathe.As if someone were strangling me,I desperately gasped for air.I kept thinking,"I've lost my daughter,who killed my child?'.The fierce reality of it all came crashing down,and a panic attack swallowed me.


In bold are the parts I think are interesting about that description of her panic attack.I think it was really a flashback(just like she said in the interview) of that night.

She actually says she has "flashbacks of JonBenet screaming". A flashback is a rememberance of something that has happened. So she is remembering JB screaming that night. Chilling.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm trying to figure out where the head injury may have happened. I feel it was an instant response to JBR screaming - didn't neighbor Melody Stanton say the scream seemed to end abruptly? I know she said there was only one. But I keep thinking about the strong chemical smell in JBR's bathroom. Bleach or peroxide, wasn't it? The coroner describes her hair as freshly (evenly) colored, and by that I take it to mean it had to have been colored fairly recently, or there would be much more variation in the length of the darker roots. I don't have any experience with this- anyone know how long the smell of hair coloring stays in the room?

 

[JMO8778]

She actually says she has "flashbacks of JonBenet screaming". A flashback is a rememberance of something that has happened. So she is remembering JB screaming that night. Chilling.

Yes,and she even differentiates between the 2 in the interview:


12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include
13 anything like nightmares?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.
15 TOM HANEY: About?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of
17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our
18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet
19 scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know,
20 searching, searching, searching trying to find
21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.


..In the nightmares line,I think maybe she means she's trying to find some answers as to why *she did this.

 

[JMO8778]

I'm trying to figure out where the head injury may have happened. I feel it was an instant response to JBR screaming - didn't neighbor Melody Stanton say the scream seemed to end abruptly? I know she said there was only one. But I keep thinking about the strong chemical smell in JBR's bathroom. Bleach or peroxide, wasn't it? The coroner describes her hair as freshly (evenly) colored, and by that I take it to mean it had to have been colored fairly recently, or there would be much more variation in the length of the darker roots. I don't have any experience with this- anyone know how long the smell of hair coloring stays in the room?

If it's anything like a perm,it's hard as heck to get the smell out.Do they use ammonia in hair color nowdays?I don't know if they ever did,but I know it used to be in perm solutions.

 

[DeeDee249]

They make both formulas of hair coloring, I think. JBR's hair looked more like highlights to me, and this kind of coloring isn't usually done at home. I thought PR had a regular hairdresser that colored JBR's hair. I always wondered whether the chemical smell in the bathroom was the result of trying to clean away some evidence. Just trying to figure out if "toilet rage" might have been "hairdo rage" instead.

 

[Ames]

I agree,what did Geraldo and the audience think,did they give any opinion on it?sometimes he overdramatizes things.

Its been so long ago.....I really cannot remember. But, it seems like he thought that it looked like she was masterbating too. BUT...I didn't think so...and why would she do that in front of an audience. She seemed like a smart kid, she had been in front of people (audiences) all of her life...I just don't think that she would have done that. And it just didn't look that way to me. It didn't last very long either...she was itching...so she started scratching. She didn't have some weird look on her face either. She just looked to me like she was itching, and used the saxaphone to scratch with....I guess that she thought that it would look less inconspicuous, than using her hand to scratch with. IMO

 

[Ames]

you're welcome,it is sad.About the RN,I agree,and the other part I thought was telling was when PR said she had flashbacks of JB screaming.I don't think she meant the bathroom sessions that LHP heard..I think she meant the night of the murder,and it makes sense that she would have flashbacks of it.So JB was either screaming from fear, or screaming back (or at PR),or maybe some of all 3.

I'm not sure what he means by intentional either,not that it was planned, but my guess is she was denied medical care after the head wound and then strangled with the cord,thereby ending her life and such as is,it is then intentional.

If anyone has DOI,pprback,p. 123,PR describes a panic attack she has...I believe it is a flashback of that night:

Sitting in the car on the way to the Dr's office,frightening thoughts started racing through my mind.Almost as if JonBenet's death were occurring for the first time,the terror and horror of what had happened settled over me.My heart pounded like a bass drum booming away inside my chest.The 'thump-thump' kept increasing and I fought to breathe.As if someone were strangling me,I desperately gasped for air.I kept thinking,"I've lost my daughter,who killed my child?'.The fierce reality of it all came crashing down,and a panic attack swallowed me.


In bold are the parts I think are interesting about that description of her panic attack.I think it was really a flashback(just like she said in the interview) of that night.

The way that she worded that (the part that I bolded in red) sounds like she was THERE when JB died, which I believe she was. JB's DEATH were OCCURRING for the FIRST TIME. Thats like saying.."its like I am reliving JonBenet's death for the first time". Her death? She wasn't there when JB died? OR WAS SHE??? Shouldn't she have said.."Almost as if I am reliving the day that JB died, for the first time?" Or something like that? My own mom died, and I wasn't there when she did. So, I wouldn't say to someone "almost as if my mom's death were occurring for the first time". Because I did not see her in death. To say that would mean that I had actually seen her when death occurred. Does that make sense???

 

[JMO8778]

The way that she worded that (the part that I bolded in red) sounds like she was THERE when JB died, which I believe she was. JB's DEATH were OCCURRING for the FIRST TIME. Thats like saying.."its like I am reliving JonBenet's death for the first time". Her death? She wasn't there when JB died? OR WAS SHE??? Shouldn't she have said.."Almost as if I am reliving the day that JB died, for the first time?" Or something like that? My own mom died, and I wasn't there when she did. So, I wouldn't say to someone "almost as if my mom's death were occurring for the first time". Because I did not see her in death. To say that would mean that I had actually seen her when death occurred. Does that make sense???

it sure does and yes I agree,that statement sounds like she was there and was reliving the whole experience,thus the 'panic attack',or rather...a flashback of those moments.
IF she truly had flashbacks of seeing JB dead for the first time,I would think her descriptions would be of seeing her lying under the christmas tree,or maybe a fear of trees or xmas trees..something along those lines..but certainly NOT a description of hearing her scream..she had to be alive for that of course.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Patsy just couldn't stop confessing. She really couldn't. Her comments all through DOI are eyebrow-raising, page after page - it's own of my favorite books, because it's so much of the tabloid fodder they so vocally reviled. Good old Patsy. She clearly had some mental issues that were not being adequately addressed, imo, both before and after the murder. I miss her.

 

[Ames]

it sure does and yes I agree,that statement sounds like she was there and was reliving the whole experience,thus the 'panic attack',or rather...a flashback of those moments.
IF she truly had flashbacks of seeing JB dead for the first time,I would think her descriptions would be of seeing her lying under the christmas tree,or maybe a fear of trees or xmas trees..something along those lines..but certainly NOT a description of hearing her scream..she had to be alive for that of course.

And she would have said...its like seeing JB dead for the first time...if in fact, the first time that she saw her dead, was when John brought her up and placed her under the Christmas tree. (This is the point that you made too). She wouldn't have used the words first time, death and OCCURRING. She would have had to have been there...in the room, when JB died...(when death occurred)....the FIRST time, for her to have said that.

 

[Solace]

The way that she worded that (the part that I bolded in red) sounds like she was THERE when JB died, which I believe she was. JB's DEATH were OCCURRING for the FIRST TIME. Thats like saying.."its like I am reliving JonBenet's death for the first time". Her death? She wasn't there when JB died? OR WAS SHE??? Shouldn't she have said.."Almost as if I am reliving the day that JB died, for the first time?" Or something like that? My own mom died, and I wasn't there when she did. So, I wouldn't say to someone "almost as if my mom's death were occurring for the first time". Because I did not see her in death. To say that would mean that I had actually seen her when death occurred. Does that make sense???

Yes Ames, it does and Patsy tells us more and more every time she opens her mouth.

 

[JMO8778]

that's why DOI is worth reading..if you can stand the lies,and they tell a lot of them in it.some have said they would never read it,but the more ppl talk,the more they reveal themselves,and I think they both did that.