Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

[CooperDyl]

There was evidence of prior sexual abuse, but not evidence of who the abuser was. The pediatrician said he did not see signs of SA. They had no way of proving after the fact who the abuser was.

Do a search on Dr. John McCann and link with Ramsey case. He has explained in detail the evidence he found, and he is well respected in the field of child SA, a pioneer. 5 other experts from all over the examined the same evidence an agreed with his conclusions.

Gotcha, I think I misread and combined two seperate statements - that there was evidence, and that is was most likely by a family member, and ended up replying to ask why if there was evidence of a family member they weren’t charged.

 

[CooperDyl]

There is documented evidence and testimony from a dozen specialists, forensic pathologists, pediatric SA specialists… regarding the prior SA of Jon Ramsey. She suffered a significant genital injury at least 10 days prior to her murder.

As far as I’m aware the ‘genital injuries’ have also been posited as infections and UTIs that may not have been the result of SA.
From what I’ve seen, there’s experts on both sides, probably part of what has made this case drag on for so long.
This isn’t to say that she wasn’t SA - I’m only saying it’s not definitive that she was or definitive that she wasn’t, and that there are experts on both sides of the argument. Hopefully one day there is a definitive answer, and those responsible for her death will be held accountable (if they aren’t deceased).

All imo.

 

[AddieBoo]

As far as I’m aware the ‘genital injuries’ have also been posited as infections and UTIs that may not have been the result of SA.
From what I’ve seen, there’s experts on both sides, probably part of what has made this case drag on for so long.
This isn’t to say that she wasn’t SA - I’m only saying it’s not definitive that she was or definitive that she wasn’t, and that there are experts on both sides of the argument. Hopefully one day there is a definitive answer, and those responsible for her death will be held accountable (if they aren’t deceased).

All imo.

I do not agree with your opinion. But I respect your right to own it.

There were 14 pages of indictments handed down by the Grand Jury. Pages 4-7 are the ones that were leaked. How many more indictments are not known? At least 3 more….

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Gotcha, I think I misread and combined two seperate statements - that there was evidence, and that is was most likely by a family member, and ended up replying to ask why if there was evidence of a family member they weren’t charged.

RSBMBFF, respectfully, and I understand the question was not directed to me.

“to ask why if there was evidence of a family member they weren’t charged.”

IIUC two adults within the family were indicted by a Boulder GJ; they were not however, subsequently charged by the DA.

Unfortunately IMO that question it seems would be best directed to the Boulder DA and the former DA. MOO

 

[CloudedTruth]

As far as I’m aware the ‘genital injuries’ have also been posited as infections and UTIs that may not have been the result of SA.
From what I’ve seen, there’s experts on both sides, probably part of what has made this case drag on for so long.
This isn’t to say that she wasn’t SA - I’m only saying it’s not definitive that she was or definitive that she wasn’t, and that there are experts on both sides of the argument. Hopefully one day there is a definitive answer, and those responsible for her death will be held accountable (if they aren’t deceased).

All imo.

Not correct that the genital injuries were posited as infections. Her pediatrician was not concerned about her frequent infections, whether or not he should have been is debatable. IMO, he should have paid more attention to that, but he was also a family friend. But the truth is, upon internal examination there was found to be significant damage to her hymen, specifically to a portion of the hymen that was proof of SA. It is definitive, 100%.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I do not agree with your opinion. But I respect your right to own it.

There were 14 pages of indictments handed down by the Grand Jury. Pages 4-7 are the ones that were leaked. How many more indictments are not known? At least 3 more….

There are actually 18 pages of what compromised the GJ decision. They only released the pages of the charges that the GJ did vote to indict, so there are 14 pages that have not been released.

 

[AddieBoo]

There are actually 18 pages of what compromised the GJ decision. They only released the pages of the charges that the GJ did vote to indict, so there are 14 pages that have not been released.

I thought the pages were leaked?
Do you know how/why those specific pages were published?

 

[AddieBoo]

I thought the pages were leaked?
Do you know how/why those specific pages were published?

I mean were those charges the most serious, less serious?
Just hoping you have a magic wand to access that info.., (Good Witch sorta thing)

Off topic

I thought the pages were leaked?
Do you know how/why those specific pages were published?

I thought the pages were leaked?
Do you know how/why those specific pages were published?

There are actually 18 pages of what compromised the GJ decision. They only released the pages of the charges that the GJ did vote to indict, so there are 14 pages that have not been released.

Clouded Truth
Off topic. But do you have an opinion about the triangle shaped abrasion on JB neck?
Maybe I should start a new thread..,,

 

[AddieBoo]

I mean were those charges the most serious, less serious?
Just hoping you have a magic wand to access that info.., (Good Witch sorta thing)

Off topic



Clouded Truth
Off topic. But do you have an opinion about the triangle shaped abrasion on JB neck?
Maybe I should start a new thread..,,

I am getting confused and ahead of myself.
Ok. So the GJ voted yes on 4 but whatever remaining indictments were considered, they voted no on?

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I am getting confused and ahead of myself.
Ok. So the GJ voted yes on 4 but whatever remaining indictments were considered, they voted no on?

Yes, that's correct (or they couldn't agree on the others, which is the same thing). The first three counts would be the most serious ones, and it's clear the evidence didn't reach probable cause for those.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I thought the pages were leaked?
Do you know how/why those specific pages were published?

No, they were not leaked. A local reporter, Charlie Brennan of the Boulder Camera got together with the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press and filed a lawsuit to have the GJ findings released. He had inside information that the GJ had voted to indict on some charges and strongly believed in the right of the public to know. They won the case, but the judge only agreed to release 4 of the 18 pages. Those 4 pages were the charges that the GJ voted to indict. Two charges for John, two charges for Patsy.

 

[snarast]

I’m sorry, but the idea that the Ramseys would be setting this bizarre scenario up is far fetched to say the least.

It destroyed their lives. Look at someone who wanted to destroy their lives instead.

IMHO

 

[CrimeTheorist]

I’m sorry, but the idea that the Ramseys would be setting this bizarre scenario up is far fetched to say the least.

It destroyed their lives. Look at someone who wanted to destroy their lives instead.

IMHO

Neither spent time in prison, so if they are responsible, it didn't destroy their lives as much as it could have.

 

[snarast]

Neither spent time in prison, so if they are responsible, it didn't destroy their lives as much as it could have.

True, good point.

I agree that it may never have happened before that both of these conditions were fulfilled:

1. A child was molested and murdered in her own house.
2. The parents/siblings/caretakers were not involved at all.

I can’t think of another case that is like this in that respect. And that is why the family will remain suspect to many. It’s understandable.

I personally feel that the epic ransom ”note” negates all of the above and makes a sociopathic attack from the outside more likely.

I also think John was the primary intended victim. So I would not only look for convicted abusers at all. I’d look at someone who resented John and had come to hate him, likely without showing the slightest sign thereof. An at least somewhat successful sociopath.

IMHO

 

[CrimeTheorist]

True, good point.

I agree that it may never have happened before that both of these conditions were fulfilled:

1. A child was molested and murdered in her own house.
2. The parents/siblings/caretakers were not involved at all.

I can’t think of another case that is like this in that respect. And that is why the family will remain suspect to many. It’s understandable.

I personally feel that the epic ransom ”note” negates all of the above and makes a sociopathic attack from the outside more likely.

I also think John was the primary intended victim. So I would not only look for convicted abusers at all. I’d look at someone who resented John and had come to hate him, likely without showing the slightest sign thereof. An at least somewhat successful sociopath.

IMHO

I'm not someone who completely rules out an intruder but I do think it's very unlikely. If someone entered the home I don't believe they came through the window because of the spider web being intact. If an intruder did manage to enter the home some other way, why only hurt JBR? Especially if it was JR that they hated.

If you believe an intruder wrote the "note" you pretty much have to believe they tried to make it look like PR wrote it. So did they hate PR too? Why not copy JR's writing.

Then you have all their strange behavior (some of which can be attributed to possibly feeling like suspects but some just can't. Like lying about the pry marks on one of the doors).

If there was an intruder were they responsible for the previous abuse too?

 

[snarast]

I'm not someone who completely rules out an intruder but I do think it's very unlikely. If someone entered the home I don't believe they came through the window because of the spider web being intact. If an intruder did manage to enter the home some other way, why only hurt JBR? Especially if it was JR that they hated.

If you believe an intruder wrote the "note" you pretty much have to believe they tried to make it look like PR wrote it. So did they hate PR too? Why not copy JR's writing.

Then you have all their strange behavior (some of which can be attributed to possibly feeling like suspects but some just can't. Like lying about the pry marks on one of the doors).

If there was an intruder were they responsible for the previous abuse too?

I don’t completely rule anything out.

Why JBR and not JR? Some people are sadists and enjoy invoking irreparable damage that lasts. That’s what I would guess in this case.
Yes, the note is like a merge between Patsy and Dirty Harry - again signalling sadistic amusement. I imagine PR rubbed many the wrong way - I mean she was a character - and above-it-all Boulder is so so different from those boisterous Southern states. IMHO (and I make that assessment based on two days spent in Boulder, but that was my (foreign, Swedish) impression).

As for the previous abuse, I will have to read up on that. I guess I’ve avoided it.

If it was the family, how do you explain the ”note”? Are they daft enough or just plain crazy - and simultaneously sociopathic - enough to come up with something like that?

The only remote possibility seems to be dissociative disorders, but even then…she was really, really tortured, this poor child.

 

[oceanverde]

Not correct that the genital injuries were posited as infections. Her pediatrician was not concerned about her frequent infections, whether or not he should have been is debatable. IMO, he should have paid more attention to that, but he was also a family friend. But the truth is, upon internal examination there was found to be significant damage to her hymen, specifically to a portion of the hymen that was proof of SA. It is definitive, 100%.

An examination of the hymen is not an accurate or reliable test of a previous history of sexual activity, including sexual assault.

 

[CloudedTruth]

An examination of the hymen is not an accurate or reliable test of a previous history of sexual activity, including sexual assault.

Have you read the report that Dr. McCann wrote after he examined ALL the materials, or the results of his groundbreaking research in the area of identifying sexual abuse in prepubertal girls? Doesn't sound like you have.

Every child abuse expert who examined the genital findings from JonBenet's autopsy recognized physical signs of sexual abuse that predated her death. Among the experts who have been publicly identified were: Andrew Sirotnak, Richard Krugman, James Monteleone, Valorie Rao and John McCann. Dr. Sirotnak at the time was a child abuse pediatrician who headed the Child Protection Team at Children's Hospital Colorado. The coroner Dr. Meyer asked Dr. Sirotnak to consult on the case as he suspected SA from what he saw during the autopsy. Dr. Sirotnak accompanied Dr. Meyer to the morgue and personally examined JonBenet and confirmed the suspicions of Dr. Meyer.

The severe damage that was found could only have been caused by accidental penetration, impalement or SA. In the instance of the first two injuries, they would have caused significant pain and bleeding requiring medical treatment. There is no such medical history for JonBenet that either such serious injury was ever suffered.

Dr.John McCann is a noted expert in the field of child abuse and neglect, and a pioneer in developing a classification system for evaluating children for suspected sexual abuse. His conclusions in this case are undisputed.

Here's a portion of his biography and experience:

Recognizing that very little was known about the "normal" genital findings of the prepubertal female, he and his colleagues developed a research project aimed at answering many of those questions. In addition, they followed up with articles on the healing of genital injuries, the use of the colposcope in the evaluation of the prepubertal and adolescent girl suspected of having been sexually abused or molested and the application of the "multi-method" examination approach to the evaluation of these subjects. Dr. McCann spent the last twelve years of his medical career as the Medical Director of the Child Protection Center at University of California Davis, Medical Center. There he continued his research in the healing process of anal/genital injuries as well as chairing the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children (APSAC) committee that developed the Practice Guidelines: Descriptive Terminology in Child Sexual Abuse Medical Evaluations. He was also instrumental in the development of the child and adolescent sexual abuse reporting forms used throughout the State of California. Dr. McCann has won numerous awards including the 2001 American Academy of Pediatrics section on child abuse and neglect award for Outstanding Service to Maltreated Children.

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[CloudedTruth]

I mean were those charges the most serious, less serious?
Just hoping you have a magic wand to access that info.., (Good Witch sorta thing)

Off topic



Clouded Truth
Off topic. But do you have an opinion about the triangle shaped abrasion on JB neck?
Maybe I should start a new thread..,,

We do not know what the other charges were because everything is still sealed. We can guess that murder may have been included.

Here are the true bills for John, the two for Patsy were identical:

"On or between December 25, and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen," according to Count IV (a).

"On or about December 25, and December 26, 1996 in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, and feloniously render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death," Count VII states.

One can argue that yes, these charges would be considered less serious than murder. However one can clearly see that the verbiage does include they assisted the person who was suspected of being responsible for committing the crime of murder in the 1st degree and child abuse resulting in death. IMO that is significant.

With regard to the abrasion on her neck, I don't have any sort of background to offer an educated opinion with any certainty. There is a thread on this forum from someone who did some good research:

Thread 'The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion”'

Dec 22, 2010

>>>>> PLEASE, this will be a long post, so if you quote from it in your responses,
only cut the part you want to address and not the entire post. <<<<<
​

Since the autopsy photos were made public, there have been several marks that troubled me. One is the round mark just below JonBenet’s right ear. The two small marks on her back which Smit tried to tie to a stun-gun also interest me, but I can’t account for them either.

But the one I thought I might be able to start with is the triangular...

• otg
• Replies: 318
• Forum: JonBenet Ramsey

• 

 

[FMB]

Have you read the report that Dr. McCann wrote after he examined ALL the materials, or the results of his groundbreaking research in the area of identifying sexual abuse in prepubertal girls? Doesn't sound like you have.

Every child abuse expert who examined the genital findings from JonBenet's autopsy recognized physical signs of sexual abuse that predated her death. Among the experts who have been publicly identified were: Andrew Sirotnak, Richard Krugman, James Monteleone, Valorie Rao and John McCann. Dr. Sirotnak at the time was a child abuse pediatrician who headed the Child Protection Team at Children's Hospital Colorado. The coroner Dr. Meyer asked Dr. Sirotnak to consult on the case as he suspected SA from what he saw during the autopsy. Dr. Sirotnak accompanied Dr. Meyer to the morgue and personally examined JonBenet and confirmed the suspicions of Dr. Meyer.

The severe damage that was found could only have been caused by accidental penetration, impalement or SA. In the instance of the first two injuries, they would have caused significant pain and bleeding requiring medical treatment. There is no such medical history for JonBenet that either such serious injury was ever suffered.

Dr.John McCann is a noted expert in the field of child abuse and neglect, and a pioneer in developing a classification system for evaluating children for suspected sexual abuse. His conclusions in this case are undisputed.

Here's a portion of his biography and experience:

​

Recognizing that very little was known about the "normal" genital findings of the prepubertal female, he and his colleagues developed a research project aimed at answering many of those questions. In addition, they followed up with articles on the healing of genital injuries, the use of the colposcope in the evaluation of the prepubertal and adolescent girl suspected of having been sexually abused or molested and the application of the "multi-method" examination approach to the evaluation of these subjects. Dr. McCann spent the last twelve years of his medical career as the Medical Director of the Child Protection Center at University of California Davis, Medical Center. There he continued his research in the healing process of anal/genital injuries as well as chairing the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children (APSAC) committee that developed the Practice Guidelines: Descriptive Terminology in Child Sexual Abuse Medical Evaluations. He was also instrumental in the development of the child and adolescent sexual abuse reporting forms used throughout the State of California. Dr. McCann has won numerous awards including the 2001 American Academy of Pediatrics section on child abuse and neglect award for Outstanding Service to Maltreated Children.

​

​

Quick Links​

• Contact the Society​
• Learn More About Ray E. Helfer​
• Find Out What Membership Has to Offer​
• Login to the Member Center​
• Discover Our Committee Network​
• Review Our Fellowship Listings​
• Check Out the Employment Section​
• The Quarterly Update​
• Legal Notice​
• Helfer Updat​

She was also a chronic bedwetter, The Ramsey's housekeeper stated that she wet the bed almost every night during the time prior to her death.

The consensus of the Medical experts, the chronic bedwetting and the over 30 pediatrician visits in 3 years all point to ongoing sexual abuse.